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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#2 Re: Main Forum » Family and mechanical connections that contradict each other » 2020-01-30 10:25:07

The memescore punishes you, among many other cases, whenever you try to do something that will have a relevance in a further future then one hour after your death.
Your family has a newcommen pump but no blacks for rubber? Traveling around to find blacks for help is the wrong approach: your siblings will be dying from famine while you're out. The correct thing to do is to gather water from ponds and hope it lasts until your grandchildren die.
Your newcommen pump is exhausted and you need to advance to diesel? Building the diesel engine is again the wrong approach: your family will die from famine while you're working. Again, the correct thing to do is to gather water from ponds and use it for farming.
You used all the water in 500 tile radius on farming and there's no water left to operate newcommen meccanisms? Not your problem. Your children and siblings will not starve, so you did great.

If you want to ensure your lineage's survival, you have to put the immidiate survival of your family at risk. If you want to gain memescore, you have to prioritize here and now, even if it comes at the cost of sacrificing the future of the lineage. I honestly don't comprehend how can you not see a contradiction here, Dodge.

Personally, i find that the optimal strategy to gain memescore is to dedicate your life to baking (mutton and rabbit) pies and brewing stew Then stuffing the pies in your immidiate family's backpacks as "emergency rations". And costantly keeping an eye on your siblings and children. If you see that they're noobs, ask them to help you brew stew and bake pies, offer to teach them, all so you can keep them close and easly forcefeed them so they don't starve on accident. If they ever have to eat themselves, you're doing it wrong. If they're afk, forcefeed them until either you or they die of old age. Just keep an eye on afk girls popping babies: forcefeed the latter aswell. Never bother yourself with anything more advanced than clothes. Never let that dry well bother you either. And only yum if your town is in completely no danger of dying in the next 2 hours. You don't want to have more people to take care of than what you can handle.

I know that making memescore care for anything more than close family's survival would require quite a lot of coding, but... if it could at least consider how long the lineage went after your contributions, idk.

#3 Re: Main Forum » Goodbye genetic fitness » 2020-01-24 23:31:33

It's called meme score for a reason

#4 Re: Main Forum » RECORD BROKEN » 2020-01-23 20:25:54

The single upgrade that made long lasting lineages viable. Nice!

#5 Re: Main Forum » Any way to force-drop something in a bad biome? » 2020-01-23 20:21:36

I tried to reproduce it. I think it's linked to how the pattern to your destination changes when you change destination fast while still in the middle of movement. Several times i just walked through a bad biome tile, but didn't drop anything. Similiar thing happens when one circles around a well or a tree, for example: there can be a point when you attempt to pass through it and are just bounced back.
Then if you click fast on a bad biome while passing through a bad biome tile, you character drops the held item on the bad biome tile. Here are two videos me getting the bug. Only last 10 seconds of each have the bug happening, but im too lazy to get a video editor.
It's hard to reproduce since you need, not only to spamm click around the bad biome, to get the movement pattern to make you pass through it, but also to click on a bad biome tile in that split second when you're passing through a bad biome.

#6 Re: Main Forum » I got bored so I made tutorials » 2020-01-18 15:49:21

sigmen4020 wrote:

No one should probably plant grapes anymore period. It wasn’t that noticeable but Jason nerfed wine a lot by removing the food bonus from it in one of the recent updates. Now without the food bonus, one glass of wine only restores one pip.

But that's the classiest pip that you can gain cool

Jokes aside, yeah, now even being a berrymuncher is by far superior to being an alcoholic.

#7 Re: Main Forum » I got bored so I made tutorials » 2020-01-18 12:00:49

You aren't getting enough credit. Thank you for making these guides: OHOL could definetly use more of them. I found the farming one to be especially neat and almost complete (exept for grapes, but begginers shouldnt be farming grapes anyways)

#8 Re: Main Forum » A Multiplayer Death Game of Parenting and Civilization Building » 2020-01-16 11:55:08

The survival aspect of this game is to live as long as you can. At least long enough to reproduce and pass this task to the next generation. And also to help the other people survive aswell. Actually, making the survival of others easier during your lifetime is more important than your own survival, imo.

I really see nothing wrong with every single life in this game coming to an end eventually. Hell, imagine if one could live forever? Now THAT would be a problem.

As for the lineages dying out... it simply means that some people along the line have failed the survival task. They died without being able to pass the task to the next generation. Nothing more than that. That's one of the beauty of this game imo: that your own survival is not for your own sake, instead a whole lineage can weight on your shoulders. And it's also what gives a long lineage a value: there are so many points in time where it could've died out but it lived through it. Having a 1000 generation lineage just because it's the only lineage that people could spawn in takes that value away and makes it a void number. Same if a lineage couldn't die out in any way.

I also really don't see how death by upgrades is relevant in the context of death of lineages. It affects such a small portion of lineage death to be a non-problem. In 24 hours you can get up to 70th generation more or less, so between one upgrade and the other the potential goes almost up to 500. And yet nowdays lineages can't even survive for 72 hours straight. So until we can get to a point where lineages can survive 300-400 generations, death by upgrades feels so irrelevant. Like, even if we could survive through upgrades, lineages would still be doomed before the 200th generation mark anyway.

Now, Spoon, this actually is an interesting argument... but if your way to get people to talk about it is to spamm until people reply, then personally ima make it a point to never give my opinion on your threads.

#9 Re: Main Forum » Strange occurences in the curse log » 2020-01-15 23:30:13

I looked a bit at random people in curse logs and noticed some with over 100 curses and a few with over 400 of them. Ofc there's no way that's linked to the number of players online on the server. One thing that i notice about pretty much everyone though is that their curse score always goes down 1 by 1 after a while.

Maybe the logs still follow the old system where they count all the comulative curses and drop the count down by 1 every life?

#10 Re: Main Forum » Is this a joke? » 2020-01-15 14:57:33

fug wrote:

We had 53 Eves Tuesday with 23 being named (some of the 53 are donkey Eves but I'm not manually sorting this lel.)

Monday had 87 total eves and 30 named Eves.

Sunday had 94 Eves total and 43 named Eves.

Saturday had 56 Eves total and 25 named Eves.

Clearly some of these Eves are donkeys, and some of the nameless are Eves who just instantly suicide which pushes the spawn out further and further. We're moving at a rate of about 1-1.5k a day just based on the Eves who name themselves which I count as people actually trying to play and even further depending on how many instant suicide Eves exist.

If you manage to survive the night you're looking at about as 15 minute trip walking somewhere from the furthest spawns one way which is something 3/4 races have to do if they never find black people. The amount of Eves in my opinion really needs to be dropped down to something a bit less extreme if people are to interact.

I looked at the data of the last week (monday 6th - sunday 12th) and it looks way worse than that.

Monday      6th - 107 Eves
Tuesday      7th - 134 Eves
Wednesday 8th - 110 Eves
Thursday    9th - 144 Eves
Friday        10th - 190 Eves
Saturday    11th - 56 Eves
Sunday      12th - 94 Eves

For a grand total of 835 Eves last week. If every 5 eves move the spawn west of 200, then that's up to 33k distance traveled. That's 4,7k/day on average. Ofc one has to take out the amount of donkey eves, but like, how many of them are there?

Are tutorial eves still counted in life logs? 'Cause these numbers look really demoralizinging otherwise.

Spoon, these numbers come from
Go to public life log data, to that of bs2 of today's date, then scroll to the bottom and pick a day. search for "noparent" to find the rough number of eves.

#11 Re: Main Forum » What we mean by "need content" » 2020-01-13 22:43:03

JonySky wrote:

Jason can create 1,000,000 new objects and the game will remain the same ... the problem is not the lack of content, the problem is the lack of challenges

I agree with you on this part. If i may add though, it's the lack of challenges that can be overcome through crafting as opposed to challenges that can be overcome through 40 mins march around the map ('cause, tecnically, the need to find other families right now is also a challenge... Making or stopping an apocalypse is a challenge aswell, but they're both boring to overcome)

He could add 1000 new foods, 100 new clothes, 40 new walls and floors. The game would become better, no doubt, but it would still feel the same.
Or he could add marriages and dads, plague from corpses, hungry wolf pack attacks, famine periods caused by weather or soil exhaustion... and the game would feel different. (Not sure if it would be better though lel)

Or a way to overcome the need for kerosene...

#12 Re: Main Forum » The high tech problem. » 2020-01-09 00:34:41

About the cars, just being able to make two precision pistons from one piston blank would cut down the steel cost by four. Alternatively, a different approach to making steel valves, in a way to make 3 out of one steel, would also save up 4 steel. If you add a possibility to make 2 fuel nozzle bodies out of one pipe and 2 cam shafts out of 1 rod, a whole stack of steel would be saved up.
We'd have cars costing 11 steel, 1 iron, 1 bucket of rubber, 2 logs and one rope.
A horsecart with rubber tires, in comparison, is worth 0,5 buckets of rubber, 1,5 logs, 3 ropes, a straight branch, 1 bowl of berries and 2 carrots. And it's 33% more efficient than a car, even if we set aside the cost of kerosene and the need to keep a tank of it in the car at all times.

Imo we need more storage space on the vehicles to make them even remotely worth the while. Like a possibility to add a tired cart to it to function as a trailer to triple its storage capabilities.

An airplane is a bit different, since its instant-travel meccanics, but it could still use a buff. Perhaps sticking a wooden sledge to it to make it a cargo plane.

And even then we're still left with the kerosene problem. Civilization-wise it's just much wiser to use it for water than for a car. And, under this light, hiding a car far away can't even be considered greifing since it's actually saving the city from an endless water sink: 2 minutes of car usage or one flight cost the equivalent of 7 buckets of water.

When end-game tetch is dooming the town instead of helping it prosper, that's a huge problem imo.

As for the glass bottles, as far as i can see, there's only 3 problems that inhibit its mass production.
- the biome restriction (duh)
- the need to trasport sand in clay bowls (you can trasport glasswort and limestones in baskets, getting 12-24 of them every trip, but it will then take you three trips to get the equivalent needed of sand)
- the need to make lots of paper to filter the glassworth ashes

Setting aside the biome restriction for a sec, Imo if we could transport sand in bukets and make filter paper out of normal paper (like 4/paper), bottles would become much more approachable.

Just throwing some thoughts here.

#13 Re: Main Forum » Video Guide for Kerosene production » 2020-01-01 20:59:57

It's made on 2hol server. Can't really make a guide on bs2 and i dont feel like playing on normal low pop ones.

#14 Main Forum » Video Guide for Kerosene production » 2020-01-01 18:35:12

Replies: 3

'Cause teaching people some things in-game is just too hard.

Hope this ends up being helpful.

#15 Re: Main Forum » I can't do this! (Drama Post) » 2019-12-30 12:40:10

Toxolotl wrote:

Infinite vs decay. Infinite always wins imo. Fight me. Waste of time waste of resources.

Ima fight you.
In every big town where i've been, since the introduction of fancy clothing, there's always people feeding sheep to make fancy clothing (leaving mountains of dung behind them). I think that in the lifetime of a belltown, enough fancy clothes are created to cloth up every citizen of it for eternity. And yet, when I get born into a bell town, there's pretty often shortage of clothes and people running naked.

Where do all those clothes end up? Obviously someone takes them and dies with them in the most remote swamp.
Adittionally, where are all the infinite clothes that were made until now? They died together with their towns.

So really, what's the point of being and undecayable peice of clothing if you end up getting lost forever all the time? Tbh I'm not quite sure how many sets of fancy clothings manadge to not get lost for 5 hours at this point. Really not that many.

Rabbit clothes are warmer. Same for sealfur coats and wolf hats. And a mouflon hide gives almost the same insulation as a button-down shirt and lasts for 10 hours. the latter three really have no cost of being made, other than time spent to look for the animals. And they give really good insulation.
As for the rabbit clothings... 7 bowls of berries and carrots can get you 6 loicons and 12 shoes (3 of them being used for needle and ball of thread). 2 rabbit furs can give you 34% insulation, which is better than even a sealskin coat. That's dirt-cheap and highly efficient.

I can understand how bowler and straw hats could be better than rabbit hats long-term though, but that's about it.
The only rabbit peices of clothing that i have problem with are the chest peices... like, just kill a mouflon and wear its hide instead, demnit.

Quirky, you're right about feeling indignated when people jump on the stuff you gathered, but killing someone for that is overreacting imo. It's kinda naive to expect people NOT to jump on the rabbits that you bring to town. Demn, i even had people take the nitre that i had brought to make a radio with, and use it for pictures. Imagine if they see rabbits.
Imo, if you want to make lots of pants for everyone, and not just bring them rabbits to do w/e they want with it, then it would be better done by dumping the rabbits on the outskirts of town, then comming back with a couple of needles with balls of thread and making two trips home, one delivering pants and the other one rabbits. One gotta adapt to life in a berrymunching commie town.

#16 Re: Main Forum » Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one » 2019-12-29 12:03:55

I just took a moment to think about how huge this game could've been if all the people, who genuinly enjoyed it, wouldn't have left out of frustration. The most i've seen on server reflect is 100-120 players at a given time, for like half a year now. The least being like 30 in the rift age. It could've easly been a several thousands.

I remember I was playing it a few times at my parents' house and my little 9yo brother was watching me. And he was asking to play. He had watched some youtube videos of it, so he thought he could've handled it. Normally i let him play stuff like modded minecraft or don't starve and i like when he enjoys it. But i couldn't bring myself to let him play OHOL, because i knew that it wouln't been fun for him. He'd just get stabbed for no reason or get kidnapped and starved. And he'd come to hate this game. It's such a beautiful game but he'd turn away from it 'cause of dumb shit like that.

Can we have an F for all the experienced players who left 'cause of greifing and also a hugeass F for thousands of new players who could've enjoyed OHOL and maybe created wonders in it, if they hadn't quit <24 hours in 'cause of all the frustrating stuff piled on new players, such as dumb killing and senseless cursing, but also hate on berrymunchin and, huge, unintuitive tech curve (that one has pretty much no way of exploring without using outside-the-game info or having someone teaching them and nobody got time or patience to teach noobs over and over), sense of disorientation that the vanilla client gives and lots of dumb shit such as anger at them for taking stuff from the floor or from eating berries 'cause they dunno what a pie is?

Goddemn am i depressed now.
Also... fucking necros.

#17 Re: Main Forum » No need to be saviour » 2019-12-28 06:17:24

What you should do instead is: recruit young girls from your village, fill them up with all the pies you can and then set on a trip to find a new village to settle in.

#18 Re: Main Forum » Discussion: What's Jason done this year? » 2019-12-23 13:27:19

Spoon, I have never played on a low pop server, so i really can only talk about bs2. Those are all possible things, yeah, it's just that they feel too hard to get for the actuall use that they can have.
A radio is really useful only when there are at least two sets of it, preferebly in different towns. But building it is such a long process that, in most scenarios, by the time a second town gets its own radio, the first one is already abbandoned.
The pictures now need the cooperation of all three specialized races to be made.

As for the clothes and old town meta, i too miss the different possibilities of town settings. Surviving off wild cactus fruits as a true cactus folk was fun. But having a fairly advanced town in a jungle and seeing everyone run butt naked, 'cause they had perfect temperature like that... it was kinda dumb. Why have clothes in the first place if they're only detrimental to survival and make you boil like an egg?

#19 Re: Main Forum » Most neccesary changes? » 2019-12-23 13:08:26

1. A rework of family specialization
2. A nerf to waystones
These two look like the most important ones atm, imo

3. Buff to cars. Like, seriously, their usefullness right now is negative.
This one feels necessary too.

4. Domesticated rabbits, reworked dogs, reworked cows. (Cows are already op and they dont even give beef.)
Not really necessary, but i'd look forward to it.

For the lockpickng part, personally, i just place a sign on some corner wall, then reuse its lock until i found the needed key. Then duplicate the key and remove both locks.

#20 Re: Main Forum » Everything runs out vs Everything is in a cycle » 2019-12-23 11:19:15

I agree with Legs here. "Everything runs out" meccanic tecnically should be able to transition in "Everything can be recycled".

I like the idea that some things run out. Like, it's not like there's an endless ocean of oil under the soil. One should be able to hunt wild animals until there are none left in the area. Wells do get exhausted if overused.

But i don't like the idea that there are no alternatives. Like, we have domesticated animals as an alternative to wild ones. Why can't we have, for example, a wind turbine as an alternative energy source to oil? Why can't we have rain or rivers as an alternative water source to wells? Engine doesnt support them? So why can't we have huge, repelisheble lakes to get water from? or why can't we get water from melted ice?

Why can't we breed rabbits just like we breed geese?

#21 Re: Main Forum » Discussion: What's Jason done this year? » 2019-12-22 07:10:22

I disagree. At the start of the year we had some nice high tetch content. Radios, planes, photocameras. This stuff isnt really used anymore due to current meta caused by further changes of this year, ok, but there are times when you can actually build a radio or take some pictures and it's fun.
We got fancy clothes. We also had stuff like new model sprites, more emotes. Slotboxes. This stuff has been wastly used ever since
This year we had a lot of improvements and rebalancing of combat system. Now it feels about right: it's hard to abuse but it's a good deterrent against abuse.
The amount of simple bug fixes is overwhelming.
He spent quite some time reworking the meta. We had diesel water pump for long time, but it was never used before 'cause there was no point in using it. We had clothes for long time, but only they started really beign used only after changes to temperature system.

In more recent days we got more use for glass now. We got wine, pumpkin pies, feast tables. Tatoos, snow buildings. Maps. Wine and maps at least are pretty nice imo.

We got also stuff like new map seeds, which is really nice. Or belly meccanic, which feels pointless on its own, ok, but getting to 10 yum and eating a feast plate lets you work in peace for half your life.

There's stuff that he introduced that feels irrelevant, sure. Like oil depletion, tool slots. War/peace messeges. Meme score.
There's also stuff like hierarchy system that can either feel irrelevant or have some great use, depending on you use it.

Then there's stuff like family specialization and the rift. This stuff does feel like a waste of time. But it wasnt a year worth, it was more like four months. In which he fixed so much stuff that had been broken for ages.

We can now have parks without the fear of someone just chopping them down unnoticed. Same with sheep. The curse meccanic is less of a meme now. The bears no longer respawn. You can't yeet babies anymore. That demned goose finally dies on its stump.

I mean, he's done a lot of stuff. most of it was small stuff, but it's a lot of small stuff that comes together.
He's done a few big changes too. Some of them were a flop, but others werent.

I think i can understand where you come from. I'd also love to have seen more content this year. But i also like how all these small frustrating issues got fixed. How many were there? I think i remember they were like 300 at the start of the rift. There were a lot before and after that aswell.

#22 Re: Main Forum » How do you feel with the game nowdays » 2019-12-22 06:30:11

Personally, i really enjoyed the pre-rift state, with the three-town meta that would let a lineage survive for a long time. Compared to now, there was so much more freedom to explore the possibilities that this game had to offer.

The rift had its upsides. Being able to continue last life projects easly for example. And being able to find every town pretty easly.
The downsides were a lot more, sadly. Everything done would be for naught 'cause reset every couple of days. Early game just ceased to exist.
Overall it ended up feeling permanently the same.

Now the game feels like you get freedom, but you get to enjoy it with broken legs.
Every life I end up not being able to do what has to be done 'cause specialization.
Right now this game is in a much more fixed state than before and it has much more complex player interactions than what we had before (which was not that much tbh.) It did get better in some perspective. I don't dislike the limited oil nor the tool slots all that much. But the frustration that the family specialization is forcing is just too much.

I'd say that overall this game feels slightly pretty much as it felt in the last days of the rift. It's playable and it can be enjoyable too. But lives start feeling the same. You see your town deing out due to limitations and you can't do much about it.

#23 Re: Main Forum » Spoonwood, we need to have a talk. » 2019-12-22 05:24:21

Spoonwood wrote:

No.  I can't do things because of future events, because future events don't exist in the present when I do something.  The 'ending up' is a future event.  Nothing from the future causes anything in the present.

But one can do things in the present to achieve a goal in the future. Thus their present actions are caused by..a hope? an expectation? of a future outcome. And while the outcome is a future event that doesn't directly influence the present, the longing for that outcome is a present state that is the root of a said action.

Spoonwood wrote:

Did you even read the threads I necroed, and who started them?

Yes i did, for the most part, quite some time ago. Then i ended up reading a few coments in some of them, at the time of their necro.

Spoonwood wrote:

It isn't too hard to see that I'm trying to talk to Jason in my comments.  I just hadn't said that before, because there was more than one purpose going on.

I know. I've always known that and it's something i can easly relate to. As i've stated before, i'm pretty sure that a lot of people here, ultimately, just want Jason to notice some problems or some nice suggestions and make his game better. But personally i've seen him comment on threads made by others quite a bit. I've never noticed him replying to a necroed thread though.

Spoonwood wrote:

Lol... your 'reason' that you can't time-index statements is a joke.

But my reason isn't quite that. I mean, you could boil it down to me not having the habit of time-indexing statements. You wouldn't be wrong. But it's a bit deeper than that. It's more the fact that i'm literally being forced to develop those habits, not because they are a normality in this forum, but because one person decides that it should be the normality, while it has never been that way. Not on these forums at least.
On a deeper thought, it's probably the same reason why you refuse to give up necroing threads. The only difference being the number of people in agreement with each of the two conceptions of normality.

Spoonwood wrote:

Naw.. I expect to go on being as lazy and closed-minded as before.  I expect them to whine, because they believe that time-indexing is too hard.  Why would have any sort of even moderately low expectations of them, when they have shown that they can't even get expected to time-index statements?

Spoonwood wrote:

Naw, they'll go on being lazy and believing that I'm trolling without reading what I've written

That's right. People aren't just gonna roll with something they don't like. Instead, they'll try and find ways to go around it. They'll try to fix their annoyance instead of adapting to it. So... there's really no point to it.

Spoonwood wrote:

But why should I care?

I thought that you also wanted to discuss with people about the stuff from the old threads.

Spoonwood wrote:

They aren't going to change by me catering to them.

You're wrong. They're gonna learn to start ignoring necro threads. To start ignoring those discuttions alltogether, even if beforehand they might have had interest in expressing their opinion on the matter. Just because the way that it's being brought to them is annoying.

DarkDrak wrote:

No. It does matter. That's literally one of the very few opinions about yourself that really matters. The others being those of people you care about.

You de-contextualized what I said there.  It had a different meaning in context than you interpreted it as meaning.
Here's the context:

DarkDrak wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:

You don't get it. The problem isn't about reopening old discussions, it's merely about the way of doing that. When we have something to say about old topics, we don't want to say them in the old thread, we'd like to post them in a new thread that's linked to the old one instead. The problem about necroing old threads is not that people want to forget those discussions forever, it's that they don't want to be tricked to open the thread all hyped up for something new and be left with disappointment.

I do get it.  Your objections, in the end, are based on an emotional reaction, not reason.  And thus since you won't try to deal with your emotional reaction or rethink it, you don't have the fortitude to tolerate behavior that you don't like.

I am an emotional person, yes. No, i normally do tend to consider my emotions under a logical perspective. No, i do tolerate behaviors that i don't agree with. As long as they aren't being blatantly annoying. In which case, why would i tolerate them? And what about you? Do you define yourself a logical person? In which case, do you rethink your logical reactions under an emotional perspective? Do you have the fortitude to compromise with behavior that you don't like?

Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:

What about you? Do you define yourself a logical person?

It doesn't matter what I think of myself.  I get to decide how I act.

DarkDrak wrote:

No. It does matter. That's literally one of the very few opinions about yourself that really matters. The others being those of people you care about.

I'm trying to get to know wether you judge your own reasonings to be based of emotion or logic or a combination of both. You're saying that it is irrelevant, 'cause you get to decide your own actions regardless (i mean, a fair point.). I'm saying that it has relevance on its own, regardless of how you decide to act. The whole exchange is, at this point, completely unrelated to what it had started from and gained a meaning of its own.

Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:

I'm not choosing to feel annoyed though.

I Don't believe so.  I think you keep on choosing to tell yourself things over time which consistently result in being annoyed.  Were you telling yourself other things, I don't think you would be annoyed.

This feels sorta taken out of context tbh. Idk if you did it just to show me how it feels having stuff taken out of context or..?
In the context, i'm refering to feeling annoyed as a conseguence of choosing to inform myself about a new discussion and the discussion not being new. Not about it being a conseguence of choosing what person i became. Which, tecnically, hasn't been entirely my choise either.

Spoonwood wrote:

So what?  You're not the one who will be necroing threads or posting links.  At least not for me.

But i'm one of those who will be viewing them. And perhaps adding their two cents to them. So it would be really cool if the same content was presented in a way that would make me want to read it and be a part of it, instead of a way that would make me want to avoid it.

Spoonwood wrote:

Naw, you're not doing it very well.  You're losing a lot of context and thus you aren't really getting the points getting made.  The most clear example was when I said "my opinion didn't matter" and you quoted it, de-contextualized it and lost it's meaning.  Again, you've been doing a piss poor job.

Ah i see. Thanks for the guidance. Well, i'm trying to avoid my walls of text from bcoming Great Walls of China of text. But it's true, i am losing a lot of context in the process. I'm just assuming that you know what i'm talking about even if i dont quote all of it, since it's all on this thread, but i shouldn't be making such assumptions i guess. I still fail to see how it's different from yours. I mean you also quote a lot of stuff decontextualizing it. The most clear example being when you took "But you are. You very clearly are" out of context as a statement of its own instead as one being followed by the reasoning behind it, to then condemn it as a statement without a reasoning.
About that example "It doesn't matter what i think of myself". In the context, i honestly want to know how you'd define yourself. So when you tell me that it doesn't matter, i gotta tell you that it does.

DarkDrak wrote:

Yes, really. This isnt even as much about the necriong stuff as it is about how you decided to take this discussion. What it started with, it was basically people asking you to stop necroing. Then it went on with explaining the reasons as to why we would ask you that. Look at it now. Insults and accusations.

Spoonwood wrote:

You quoted me saying "oh really?"  No insult or accusation there.

I quoted you answering with "oh really?" to half of a statement i made. You can read the insults in your own posts or some of them at the end of mine. Don't pretend like they aren't there.
The part of your answer after "oh really" wasn't really relevant in the context, since here i'm talking about the way of arguing, not the necro threads.

Spoonwood wrote:

First thing you say is that they click.  Them clicking is their choice.  Then they read.  Them reading is their choice.  Not checking the dates?  But it's their choice to check the dates or not.  By accident?  No, the system is designed to make to it so that when a thread gets bumped it will appear at the top, and thus people looking for the latest comment will read that thread first.

And again, them time-indexing or not is their choice.  I won't be surprised though if they lazily won't time-index statements or complain when someone bumps a thread suggesting that they should time-index statements if they want to understand things better.  The complainers here have repeated shown that they just don't want to go through such an effort and that they would rather engage in an attempt at silencing.  Well, so much worse for those complainers.  It says more about them, then it does about me.

But the choice that they were making was not that of opening an old thread. They did it because they failed to realise it was old. Again, the choise that they were making when they started reading was that to read something new, not that of reading something old. So again, reading something old was not their choise. I understand what you're saying. It was a direct result of their choise to not time-indexing. But not time indexing is a habit more than a choise. When you already have it, you just go with it. You could argue that it's their choise to develop and to keep that habit i guess. But i think that's more a choise that the forum makes for you. If you never have to do it, then you just don't do it. By default.

Spoonwood wrote:

Doubtful.  More likely you came up with a phrase that you thought sounded witty and then tried to rationalize it in some way.

Look at the following quotes.

DarkDrak wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:

You are acting immorally by trying to impose how you think you should behave onto someone else.  I am not.

But you are. You very clearly are.

Spoonwood wrote:

Necroing threads does not harm people in the slightest.  People are capable of checking the dates or reading them.  I will NOT be making any such problems.

Right here. You're trying to impose on people the attitude that you think they should have towards necroed threads, despite people telling you clearly that that's not what they think about it.

Also, now that i think of it, these would probable be a better example of what i meant at the time:

Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:

Why do it when you got a great alternative that people keep telling you about: make new threads and link to the old ones?

Because I believe that people are more likely to read the old information if I comment in those threads.  And from you're telling me, they do read the old information after I've posted in the way that I do.  They end up reading more of the old comments or the original post.  I mean, how often do people actually follow links?  I would guess less often than reading comments.

So no, you just decontextualized the "But you are. You very clearly are." part.

Spoonwood wrote:

I didn't necro threads with the intent to get some sort of emotional rise out of people.  Honestly, it's kind of surprised me how many of the people around here have thrown a childish fit and wanted me silenced because of a necroed thread.  I saw SO MANY necroed threads over at civfanatics, and even saw one today.  No one I ever knew of gave a damn, except in the situation like where I made on some necroed thread today... when someone was talking to someone who had made a post years ago and that person was probably long gone and wasn't likely to come back.  And even then it wasn't like "necroing is bad", the problem was that the person there didn't seem to realize that s/he was talking to a ghost.

Yes, i know, you necroed them in good fairh. But this arent civfanatics forums... People are used to different stuff here.

Spoonwood wrote:

I wouldn't oppose having some sort of time-index up front before you click on a thread, instead of having to refer to the dates in the thread.  But then again, all sorts of time-indexes are there in the thread.

This... actually sounds like a great and resonable idea. if threads had "first post" way of visually indicating how old they are, ignoring necro threads would be a lot easier.

Spoonwood wrote:

By 'nope', I mean 'nope'.  Smoke blown on other people has physical effects.  I think there exist studies to the effect that parents who have smoked in front of their children who haven't smoked, have harmed their children by smoking.  You aren't going to be physically harmed by my necros.  And I don't think you'll be emotionally harmed by them either.  Really, ever.  Annoyance isn't emotional harm.  Emotional harm is more like loss of a sense of self, weakening of one's personal identity, or serious fear, not "omg a necro!  a necro!".

I was speaking about mental annoyance, not emotional harm. I'm also doubtful about how damaging some smoke in one's face a couple times could really be. But yeah, it does cause damage long-term. The point it that it causes annoyance short-term thought. If the harmful effects of smoke take you away from considering that point, then imagine that the smoker in question is using an electrical cigar. Its vapor is annoying on the eyes and might have a smell you don't like, but nothing more. So imagine this scenario: you, a non-smoker, are standing and chatting with this guy who's smoking an electrical cigar. And he smokes right in your face, whereas he could easly just smoke to the side.

Spoonwood wrote:

Uh, who are you talking about?  Do you really think I had all forum users in mind when I made notes saying things like "I think you..." when I was trying to speak to Jason in a public context?  Do you really think that I keep some sort of mental list of forum users and I'm like "this one will probably read me... this one wont'.."  No, it's not like that and wasn't.

The same people that you were talking about when said that you'd like people to be informed, that you'd like them to consider other opinions. Of course i don't expect you to have any mental list of them.

Spoonwood wrote:

I mean no.  There exist griefers on these forums.  They don't the same game of civilization building and parenting that other people do, at least not when they grief.  They enjoy a game of destruction and attempted mayhem and lineage destruction.  And I don't know how you play... one way or the other.

On a side note, what do you think about said greifers? Do you tolerate their behavior or would you rather try to change it? I'm seriously interested in your opinion on the matter.

Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:

And to learn to not take opinions and discussions as personal attacks. And to respect their choice.

Uh... when someone is trying to silence you and calling for your comments to get moderated, that's a personal attack.  I'm not saying that you've been doing that, but some have.

Yea, pretty sure that people can't respect my choice around here, trying to silence me and trying get me not to necro.  I haven't called for anyone to get silenced or to get some sort negative points for not reading one of my necroed threads or get a gold sticker for making a comment on one my necroed threads.

I don't want to silence you. As far as i could gather, most people don't want to silence you either. They (and I) just want you to express your voice in a more convenient way.

As for the reports, personally i havent used that function. It's just that, if discussion fails, that's really the only choice left for people to get what they want. People don't like to be annoyed.
Personally I think that reporting a necromancer is just as respectful to him as his doing is respectful to others.

Spoonwood wrote:

Lol.. FEAR of necroed threads.  Give me a break.  They are a bunch of text.  Such is not real fear, since real fear is about when you believe something can or will harm you.  And a necroed thread isn't going to eat your brains out.  And I don't think anyone who reads ends up that stupid.  Though, perhaps, someone is dumber than I realize.

What are you talking about? A necromancer and his horde of undead threads is something that instilles TERROR in people's hearts. The undead minions are gonna capture people inside their posts and slowly eat their brains out and sobstitute them with opinions on content that had been burried in the graveyard for ages! The fortunate will flee. The unfortunate will die. Those with halfassed luck will become necromancers themselves and spread the terror.

You don't have to take me seriously all the time lol.

#24 Re: Main Forum » Spoonwood, we need to have a talk. » 2019-12-21 16:01:24

Spoonwood wrote:

Nope, not us.  You.  You and whoever else agrees with you at most.

Yeah, that's clearly what i meant by "us". You had to go a lot out of your way to misinterpret it in a way where you were a part of it.

Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:

I've seen them too. Which is why i went with "mostly" instead of "only". However The quantity of shitposts on necroed threads exceeds the quantity of useful information (after the thread was necroed, ofc). A problem that i fail to see on the threads that want to discuss old stuff by linking to it.

People are responsible for their own posts.  I haven't been shitposting.  I am not responsible for those shitposts.  The shitposters are.

Here i'm talking about the efficacy of a necroed thread vs that of a new thread + link. I'm not pinning shitposts of others on you? Again, you had to go out of your way to misinterpret it like that.

Spoonwood wrote:

I don't click links for others or read via other eyes.  They make the choice to read or not.

You had literally admited that when you necro a thread, you do it 'cause it ends up with more people reading the old posts. By accident, not choise. That's like, your very giustification for why you would prefere to necro instead of new+link. You're contradicting yourself here.

Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:

Especially when several people asked you several times to not do that, but you had continued regardless.

Yeah, so what?  I get to decide how I behave.  They can ask, and I can say no. [if you don't like the way i act] That's your problem, not mine.

I hope that you do realize that if you keep doing that, you'll lose the respect of a lot of people.

Spoonwood wrote:

Right.  You have a problem with tolerating negative reactions.  You bear the marks of an intolerant control freak who bases things on their emotions not reasons.

Not really. I'm just a normal guy who can't stand it when others shit in their soup and then pretend like it's all ok. That's about it. You on the other hand... you need to chill a bit. You're getting a bit too aggressive and defensive at the same time.

Spoonwood wrote:

You being annoyed is YOUR emotion.  It is not a reason.  Your emotions do not give you a right to dictate how others should act.

I'm not choosing to feel annoyed though. There's a reason behind that feeling. And your emotions and your logic doesnt give you a right to dictate how others should act either..? Yet, you expect people to change their ways and start looking for dates of a post before reading it, so they wont end up wasting their time.

Spoonwood wrote:

It doesn't matter what I think of myself.

No. It does matter. That's literally one of the very few opinions about yourself that really matters. The others being those of people you care about.

Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:

In which case, do you rethink your logical reactions under an emotional perspective?

lol... emotional reasoning is fallacious in general.

So you don't. And yet you expect others to rethink their emotional reactions under logical perspective. This has to be a joke.

Spoonwood wrote:

[No, you aren't trying to reason with me or to find a compromise or to find a win-win scenario. You only want me to lose and have it all go your way.]

To be clear, in this situation i view "new thread + link" as a compromise between "necroing threads" and " letting old discussion die".

Spoonwood wrote:

If you have been, you've done a piss poor job.

You think so? I think i'm doing a good job though. Now my comments are huge walls of text with lots quotes that state points that another person has made and the texts in between having the only purpose of invalidating the quote that it is under. It's actually a pretty neat format for arguments, now that i tried it.

Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:

But if you find my way of doing things to be manipulative and controlling, then im afraid you should take a moment of deep self reflection.

Oh really?

Yes, really. This isnt even as much about the necriong stuff as it is about how you decided to take this discussion. What it started with, it was basically people asking you to stop necroing. Then it went on with explaining the reasons as to why we would ask you that. Look at it now. Insults and accusations. Though, tbh, i sorta expected it to end up this way.

Spoonwood wrote:

Perhaps that's what manipulation is.  Perhaps not also.  It really doesn't matter.  Even if I were being manipulative, what you described is not what controlling is.  You said I was being manipulative and controlling.  And since people can choose otherwise, and I've emphasized that, I haven't been controlling.

You really don't realise where you've been controlling? Allow me to explain. People who click necroed threads are interested in the argument, mainly 'cause they think it to be something new. So they end up reading the comments. Nobody checks the dates because most people who check things regulary expect the top threads to be new. That's really a fair expectation to have imo. Then people progeed to read the comments. 'Cause obviously they were interested in the subject. Then they realize it's old news and either skip to the last comment or abbandon the thread alltogether. While by seeing a link to an old thread in a new one they would choose wether to see old news or not, by bumping a necroed thread directly you took that choise of theirs away. They ended up reading old comments anyway. By accident, not by choise. Which, as stated above, is the reason you would prefere necroing over the other method. Basically you do that to make them read old comments regardless of their choise.

Spoonwood wrote:

Oh look, you can't even reason there.  All you can do is repeat a phrase.

Oh look, somebody is answering to my wall of text before reading it. I literally had the reasoning in the quote right under.

Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:

Necroing threads does not harm people in the slightest.  People are capable of checking the dates or reading them.  I will NOT be making any such problems.

Right here. You're trying to impose on people the attitude that you think they should have towards necroed threads, despite people telling you clearly that that's not what they think about it.

Pretty sure I was only talking to you DarkDrak.  I haven't been saying that to everyone whining saying something like "OMG SPOONWOOD NECROED THREAD!  I NEED A KNIFE AND A VICTIM TO MAKE AN ENDSTONE!"

...Pretty sure you went a bit beyond "only talking" here. Regardless... weren't you necroing the threads aswell, with this reasoning?

Spoonwood wrote:

Right.  I will necro or not necro a thread in the future as I see fit.  And it won't surprise me if I will see fit to necro some thread in the future.

I mean, yeah, i know. Everyone on the forums has that power. Perhaps i went a bit too far asking you to promise to renounce to that power. Really, though, what i really want is to be able to open top threads without having to be suspictious about wether it's a new upgrade inc. or a 1 year old discussion.

Spoonwood wrote:
DarkDrak wrote:

But this is not like respecting the point of view of a non-smoker but remaining a smoker yourself. This is like respecting the point of view of a non-smoker but smoking in their face regardless.

Nope.  My necroing a thread does not have long-term physical effects on you or anyone else.

What do you mean "Nope"? Yep, it does cause the same short term mental annoyance.

Spoonwood wrote:

No, you will have a problem.

Man, i'm a simple person. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. If i'm having a problem and you're the cause of it, then you'll end up having a problem with me being the cause of it. It's really simple mentality that i have. Can we just..... avoid the problems?

Spoonwood wrote:

Nice try, but I've pointed out multiple times that people get to choose to read the threads that I've necroed or not.  They should have the ability and right to choose also as to what they read.

Yes and i've pointed out multiple times that it's not at all how it works in reality. So what i said stands.

Spoonwood wrote:

A necroed thread does not have phsyical effects on your body.  It's just a bunch of text.

But it has a mental effect of wasting some time reading old stuff that i had already read. And a mental effect of annoyance.

Spoonwood wrote:

Pretty sure I was hoping that others would read something, because of my necros.  Pretty sure I'm willing to accept that people will think less of me, because of that.  Were I some sort of narcissist, I would be wanting their approval.  So, you're wrong, or at least you can't infer it from my necros and my response to critics.

Also, even you calling such an 'inconvenience' is a joke.  People can check the date of necroed threads and scroll to the first post.  That takes like a few seconds.  People usually go through more inconvenience when they stop at a traffic light.  A lot more inconvenience.

Pretty sure you didn't care at all wether they wanted to read those necros or not. All that mattered to you was that they would probably end up doing it. Pretty sure that a narcissists likes approval but would never inconvenience themselves to get it.
And you implying that necroing isn't being an inconvenience regardless of what others say has to be a joke. People now literally started looking at first comment's post date 'cause they're alert for necro threads.


Spoonwood wrote:

I could care less as to whether I'm mature or not.  Why does it matter?  I will be as I will be.  Oh and hey, you're the one who ended with an insult here.   Perhaps you should consider what that means about you, not me.

Spoonwood wrote:

Oh look, you can throw a word like fortitude around when you're not getting your way.  Grow up.  Learn some tolerance.

Spoonwood wrote:

Right, so you can't control what I say, thus you try to shame me by saying that I'm being disrespectful.  You're a control freak who can't stand when people act in ways that you don't like.

This is really hilarious to hear from someone who has filled up his previous comments with insults. You gotta chill down a bit. For real. In the end, we're all buddies here who enjoy the same game.

Spoonwood wrote:

I want you to grow up.  And learn to not to try to control others.  And tolerate them.  And accept that you will probably feel annoyed when thinking about their behavior sometimes.  And I want you to respect their choice.

However, I am not optimistic that you will do so ever, especially not in the foreseeable future.

That's funny. I also want you to grow up. And to learn to not take opinions and discussions as personal attacks. And to not see requests as an attempt to control you. And to learn to come to terms with others instead of forcing your way through everything. And to respect their choice.

And I too start to realize that it's probably too optimistic of me to hope for those things.

I'm not trying to control you. Or to shame you. I'm trying to change your mind, yeah. But what I'm really trying to acomplish is be able to open the forums without the fear of seeing necro threads.
Also, i wanted to argue with you one time. Believe it or not, you're really fun to argue with.

#25 Re: Main Forum » Leaderboard Ranking » 2019-12-21 11:02:01

Pretty sure they're using the tutorial Eve exploit that Tarr was talking about. Basically, when you play as eve in tutorial, your score doesnt go down no matter at what age you die. So you spend 3-4 minutes to make 10 lives as an Eve in tutorial, die to the snakes asap and boom. Your average life expectancy is now 15 years. Keep playing to 60 for a few normal lives and then, when you start gaining too little, do it again. By doing that you automatically boost the score of your relatives aswell, since the score they get from you is based on your average life expectancy. People are circlejerking the system.

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