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#51 2019-02-11 23:03:01

Tarr
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 960

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

With the incomplete code as is you've buffed deserts which I'm not sure is the real goal here. Where as before new players would dress themselves in a bunch of clothing (thus negating why Eve even started in the desert in the first place) being dressed in the desert is mandatory. Even better is the fact that full rabbit fur clothing puts you at a near perfect temperature which means the clothing needed to keep you city going is sustainable.

It also seemed buildings/flooring weren't doing anything to help with the heat this means building on the desert was no long a complete drawback. However, this also means that building in a cold biome doesn't do you any good either so again that's a buff to deserts overall.

As long as you keep deserts in an acceptable living range (lower food drain rate than neutrals) people will always flock to the deserts. The game naturally baits new players to neutral biomes since that's where all the food is but this just tells anyone actually experienced that your mother is new to the game and isn't likely to be able to do much to help you. As is green biomes are just a noob trap.

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#52 2019-02-12 00:18:03

Lily
Member
Registered: 2018-03-29
Posts: 405

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

I kind of like the idea where your temperature slowly drops over time, until you reach the area's temperature, and having the food use for it being far more extreme. So for example, if you are in the cold area and at a fire, you are at ideal temperature. If you are naked and walk away it takes like 5 minutes to reach the cold temperature but it is basically freezing to death where you have to eat food every minute just to survive. If you have full clothing maybe it takes like 15 minutes until you are freezing.

For a naked Eve, going into the ice area might almost be death, but since fire is fairly low in the tech it isn't completely hopeless and the other areas don't need to be so extreme.

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#53 2019-02-12 00:47:05

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 28

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

Maybe clothing alone produces no temp benefit? (In other words, there's no body heat to hold in?)  Maybe it only slows the loss of heat?  Or in general, insulates you from moving closer to your surrounding temp.  Like, maybe people in this game should be cold blooded.

That wouldn't work (Why am I cold? I have clothes!), but you could combine these mechanics into the current system to get a little of both. So you've got a core temp that slowly drops the longer you're away from a heat source, and clothes slow that rate but also increase the floor temp, so even if you're away for a really long time you won't be freezing as if you were naked.

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#54 2019-02-12 00:55:41

BladeWoods
Member
Registered: 2018-08-11
Posts: 166

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

Running an N-step simulation seems like a bad idea for handling heat calculation.
It's unintuitive, computationally expensive, and the number of steps you run change the results.

There should only be one step. And I would suggest the neighboring tiles that are considered be a circular region (integer approximation), not a grid.
Perform a distance-insulation-weighted average of the tiles in the neighboring region.

And as others have said there are huge temperature differences over small distances. When one side of a building/workzone is hot and the other side just a few tiles away is cold cause you're on or crossing a biome border, clothing is never gonna work well. Towns are almost always located on the borders of biomes b/c resources from different biomes are needed for a successful eve camp. The temperature change between different biomes needs to be more gradual.

Also food becomes abundant and easy in a developed town. I think this is an unavoidable effect of progression, so temperature could use affecting more than just how fast you get hungry so that it and clothing matters more. Your chance to have a baby is a great extra effect, but maybe there could be more consequences, like having your move speed lowered the less ideal your temperature is and dying from hypothermia/overheating at extreme temperatures.

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#55 2019-02-12 00:58:17

BlueDiamondAvatar
Member
Registered: 2018-11-19
Posts: 234

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm pretty sure the most food-efficient way to currently raise a baby is either:

1.  Mother eats until full with huge YUM bonus, then stands in perfect temp while holding baby until baby grows up (spends 1 food on baby, the first time the baby is picked up).

2.  Someone else feeds mother while she holds baby the entire time (again, 1 food spent).

That does seem like the most food efficient way to raise a baby... but... it's boring.  Both for the mom and the baby.  We're looking to balance the food efficiency with the fun efficiency.  smile

So I usually eat until I have a modest yum bonus, hold the baby and give them a tour of town.  Then I'll take the hit on the food meter as I pause at temperature efficient spots to eat high pip foods.


So what exactly is wrong with building on edges?  Even if all the biome temperatures were equal, I'd choose to start a camp at the edge of multiple biomes, just for access to a variety of resources.  And some of the most vibrant real life cities fit this description, too.

Based on playing in the cold temps on One City Server - I'd still choose to build in desert, just because of the modest temperature difference.

(P.S. Someone had already taken "Blue Diamond" when I signed up for the OHOL forums, so I added the word Avatar.  I am not an aviator.)


--Blue Diamond

I hate mangoes.  Backpacks are great, but carts are better.  I play alot.

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#56 2019-02-12 02:30:52

Ferna
Member
Registered: 2019-02-01
Posts: 28

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, when coming into the house, I do not want to encourage you to "strip down" completely.  That would be tedious.  But I would want you to take off your hat, or your polar coat.  Just one thing removed should be enough to regulate you down to perfect.

Have you considered allowing players to switch states on their clothing between "warming" and "cooling" modes? That could allow players to quickly adjust the temperature effect of clothing without the complications of losing items, hunting for ground space, or forgoing it entirely because of hot biomes.

For example:

  • Switching a hat slips it off so it rests behind your head

  • Switching a cloak (seal fur, sheep skin, etc.) rolls it into a bundle at your shoulders

  • Switching a coat unzips it to let cool air in

  • Switching a loincloth pulls out the pockets (rather than pulling off, since that would look rather silly)

  • Switching shoes removes and ties them at your waist

By introducing an element of player control like this, it becomes relatively easy to justify wearing full clothing since you can quickly adjust your insulation level before "going out the door" into cold biomes or "stepping inside" to warm ones again on your return. It's also quick enough to make players pause and consider how much clothing to use for a particular trip (e.g. will it be a quick run there and back? will I be visiting Desert? did I just catch Yellow Fever? etc.)

However, I think it's important to consider that the trifecta of insulated buildings, heat sources, and full clothing should be too hot when put together, rather than just approaching an ideal temperature. Otherwise, clothing will always be a static trade-off between maxing everything or doing nothing at all, which gets decided in forums (by people doing math) rather than as a gameplay feature.

Last edited by Ferna (2019-02-12 02:37:55)

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#57 2019-02-12 11:53:42

Averest
Member
Registered: 2018-12-04
Posts: 102

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

Oh god, more things for me to misclick on.

Oh I'm hungry better get that pie out of my backpack
"Click!"
No! That's my hat!
"Click! Click!"
Cloak! No! Coat! Heck!
"Click click click!
Rock, snare, pi...

You died
Age: 26
Cause: Starvation

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#58 2019-02-12 17:18:52

Booklat1
Member
Registered: 2018-07-21
Posts: 702

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

I like fernas idea a hell of a lot but shouldn't over use it. Personally i'd like to see only jackets having this feature (and maybe being craftable later in the techtree, thus enabling their versatility).

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#59 2019-02-12 19:21:57

CrazyEddie
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 676

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

A lot of great discussion here.

It's very encouraging that you're reading the discussions, and that you're sharing your thoughts around what you want out of the game mechanics, and why.

In order to have a perfect temp, clothing, buildings, and heating should be necessary.  Otherwise, you should be cold.

So this is good, and pretty straight-forward to accomplish. What made it difficult was the inclusion of warm and hot biomes, coupled with clothing always making you hotter (rather than moderating your temperature whether hot or cold). This meant that clothing would be an asset at times but a liability at other times, because people don't stay on one biome. Taking clothing off and putting it on when crossing biome boundaries is a non-starter because of usability and storage problems, so the decision to wear clothing or not comes down to evaluating the trade-offs. On the plus side: lower food consumption in most biomes. On the minus side: the difficulty and expense of getting clothing in the first place, higher food consumption in some biomes, and guaranteed death due to mosquitoes. Frankly, it's an easy decision, especially since the benefit (lower food consumption) is mostly irrelevant once food production is mature.

This is why I recommended two types of clothes: warm clothes which make you strictly warmer in any location, and cool clothes which warm you in cold locations and cool you in warm locations. This fits with real-world clothing usage, as many people have pointed out. And it leads to good gameplay: people who expect to stay mostly in cool climates will choose warm clothes, people who expect to stay mostly in warm climates, or to travel between them, will choose cool clothes.

There's also the inevitable-death-from-mosquitoes thing. One way to help with that would be to make clothing offer some protection against mosquitoes, and maybe even other animals as well. If you did that, then people would make clothing a high priority! And it has a basis in reality as well. But at the very least, rethink the mechanisms behind yellow fever and temperature control so that hitting mosquitoes fully-clothed isn't a death sentence. Yes, hitting other animals is a death sentence too, but the point is that with mosquitoes, clothing makes the difference between an annoying delay that you can survive and the end of your current life, which means that everyone will simply choose not to wear clothing.

Unless we find a solution to the "perfect naked area" problem (on a boundary or blend point between biomes), I'm tempted to make all biomes cold, and some (like arctic) colder.

That would be a shame, because it seems odd that being naked in a jungle or desert would make you too cold. If instead, you make it so that being naked in those places makes you too hot, and you have clothing which cools you down (which, again, is what happens in real life) then you can still accomplish your goal of making clothing important everywhere without having to say that jungles are cold.

I do still worry that, as long as some biomes are hot and others cold, there will be ways to exploit that along biome boundaries. [..] And yes, I HATE that there is currently a "good spot" for the baby to stand (unless it is next to a fire---I do like that). [..] I do think it's dumb that natural temp can change so drastically in th middle of a town.

I think this is a solvable problem.

Make climate regions larger than biomes, so that the temperature doesn't change much across the entirety of a large town. Make sure that each climate region is either too hot or too cold, so that the "ideal temperature" locations are limited to the borders between climate zones, and are only achievable by going back and forth between the two climate zones.

People currently settle where there's a border between hot and cold because that makes it easy to have a baby-parking spot without tending a fire. But those spots are fairly easy to come by - just look for an otherwise good spot (i.e. next to water and near grasslands) that either borders jungle or desert, or that has a small patch of jungle or desert tiles intruding. There's your baby pen. But if climate zones were somewhat decoupled from biome borders, good places like that would be fewer and would be harder to recognize even where they do exist. Looking for such a spot just to avoid lighting a fire would become pointless, and people wouldn't bother.

Also, people settle on deserts and jungles not mainly for the baby-parking spots, but because putting the berry farm on desert or jungle reduces food consumption by babies, mothers, and newbies by a factor of four. That's because right now, being naked in desert or jungle is not as hot as being naked in the other biomes is cold. But you can instead make the warm/hot climate zones just as punishing as the cool/cold climate zones by tweaking the numbers.

If you take away the incentive to settle on deserts (said incentive is currently huge), there will be many more settlements on grasslands, plains, and swamps, and many fewer settlements with a hot/cold border conveniently close by.

And I guess there should also be some penalty for "overdoing it," or some specialty clothing that is really only viable in the very coldest places.  Like the seal coat.  Maybe you'd wear that for a polar trip, but not generally hang out at home in one.  Also should be possible to overdo it with heat sources.  If you have a fire and a forge and an oven in your house all going at the same time, you should overheat in there, especially if you're wearing warm clothes on top of it all.

What this suggests to me is the following:

  • Clothing ("cool clothing") moderates temperature: warms in cold, cools in heat

  • Buildings moderate temperature

  • Warm clothing (furs, wool?) raises temperature

  • Fires raise temperature

This gives you reasons to wear clothing and make buildings in both cold and hot climates, but also allows you to get overheated if you wear the wrong kind of clothing in a hot climate, wear the wrong clothing into a building, or build too many fires inside a building.

Also, when coming into the house, I do not want to encourage you to "strip down" completely.  That would be tedious.  But I would want you to take off your hat, or your polar coat.  Just one thing removed should be enough to regulate you down to perfect.

I'm skeptical you can make this work for going in and out of buildings. The penalty would have to be immense for it to be worth taking off a hat, finding a place to put it down, working around the loss of a free space, hoping nobody else takes it, finding it again when leaving (since it probably will have gotten moved), and putting it back on.

But if you have warm and cool clothing, buildings that moderate temperatures, and fires that raise them, then someone who is going to take up long-term residence in a heated building (i.e. a smithy or bakery or possibly a nursery) will adjust their clothing as needed to keep an ideal temperature. That might be a full set minus a hat, or it might be nearly nothing if there are multiple fires going. I wouldn't try to find numbers that would result in it always being "take off your hat, and only your hat, whenever going inside any building anywhere at any time". I don't think you could find numbers like that.

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#60 2019-02-13 04:49:18

betame
Member
Registered: 2018-08-04
Posts: 198

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

Yes, thanks for brainstorming with the community a week in advance!

jasonrohrer wrote:

The general idea is that clothing should help, but not be sufficient.  Buildings should help, but not be sufficient.  Heating should help, but dissipate too much if not contained.

In order to have a perfect temp, clothing, buildings, and heating should be necessary.  Otherwise, you should be cold.

And I guess there should also be some penalty for "overdoing it," or some specialty clothing that is really only viable in the very coldest places.  Like the seal coat.  Maybe you'd wear that for a polar trip, but not generally hang out at home in one.  Also should be possible to overdo it with heat sources.  If you have a fire and a forge and an oven in your house all going at the same time, you should overheat in there, especially if you're wearing warm clothes on top of it all.

I had some success just now adding this to the simulation:
trying to think of ways to mimic shade

   biomeHeatGrid[playerMapIndex] = biomeHeatGrid[playerMapIndex] * (1-clothingR)

With this, light clothing helps in both hot and cold regions, but can be overdone more easily the hotter it is. [trading solar radiation for body heat]


Regarding buildings:
Floors/shelter don't moderate the temperature currently, but rather prevent the environment from undoing fires/snowballs.
- and I like that about the recent commits. Maybe they could also rCombine with clothes in the line of code above.
And walls have always done their job of trapping in heat (or cold).

Maybe clothing alone produces no temp benefit?  Maybe it only slows the loss of heat?  Or in general, insulates you from moving closer to your surrounding temp.

So if you wear a warm coat into a very hot building (forge), it keeps you cool for a while, until you eventually heat up.  Then at that point, taking off the clothing will have no effect (nor will leaving it on), b/c you are at the same temp as the surrounding space.  If you walk out into the cold, however, having clothing on will keep you hot longer.

Likewise, if you are trying to warm up by a fire, keeping clothing on will slow down that process (same in real life, take coat off to warm up by fire).

I think heat transience/lag behaves nicely already for flavor.
In ""double change = 0.2 * delta;"" it might be overkill to make the 0.2 depend on clothing, especially since the frequency of heat updates depends on server load.

I do still worry that, as long as some biomes are hot and others cold, there will be ways to exploit that along biome boundaries.  Even if there's no blend of temperatures at boundaries, people can dance across boundaries.  And yes, I HATE that there is currently a "good spot" for the baby to stand (unless it is next to a fire---I do like that).

And someone else suggested that temp is separate from biome, and involves some kind of averaging of all biomes in a given radius.  This still suffers from the same problem, in that if you find a good spot that is situated between two biomes, you can find a temp-perfect area where no clothes or buildings are beneficial.  But yes, I do think it's dumb that natural temp can change so drastically in th middle of a town (though people are building on boundaries to exploit temperature blending, so they wouldn't have a boundary in the middle of town if that wasn't a factor).

Unless we find a solution to the "perfect naked area" problem (on a boundary or blend point between biomes), I'm tempted to make all biomes cold, and some (like arctic) colder.

This one is tough, and I don't think anyone wants to make that all-cold concession.

I think making the perfect-temp tiles difficult to find visually would help. That way eves won't know for certain how warm a place is until they've experienced it, and babies won't have a single obvious place to stand.
This could be accomplished as suggested above. Or maybe while generating the map, take the average of biome choice 1 & 2.

I'm a fan of Mediterranean climates - and they were significant to historical civilizations too. If you want to make shelters mandatory in warm climates, you'd have to add a calculation for "shelter" into the foodDecrementTime calculation.


////Anyway, best luck finding what feels right for ur game! - I'd be amazed if these changes were balanced perfectly upon fresh release

Last edited by betame (2019-02-13 10:49:43)


Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info

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#61 2019-02-13 08:56:35

voy178
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2018-08-18
Posts: 126

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

If anything there should be a consistent biome structure which prevents certain biomes to spawn near each other.

Deserts should never pop up next to Snow biomes or swamps.

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#62 2019-02-13 11:11:18

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 2,535

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

jasonrohrer wrote:

A lot of great discussion here.

I do still worry that, as long as some biomes are hot and others cold, there will be ways to exploit that along biome boundaries.  Even if there's no blend of temperatures at boundaries, people can dance across boundaries.  And yes, I HATE that there is currently a "good spot" for the baby to stand (unless it is next to a fire---I do like that).

And someone else suggested that temp is separate from biome, and involves some kind of averaging of all biomes in a given radius.  This still suffers from the same problem, in that if you find a good spot that is situated between two biomes, you can find a temp-perfect area where no clothes or buildings are beneficial.  But yes, I do think it's dumb that natural temp can change so drastically in th middle of a town (though people are building on boundaries to exploit temperature blending, so they wouldn't have a boundary in the middle of town if that wasn't a factor).

As for why the green biome is cold....  in the original game at launch, all biomes were equally cold, and there were no biome temp effects, at all.  Everything was cold to make buildings/clothing/fire beneficial everywhere.  The next biome introduced was the arctic, and that was even colder.  Okay, clothes are REALLY needed there, and no one builds towns there.

The "laws of the land" from back in the day included "wear a full set of clothes, because otherwise you're wasting valuable food."

The introduction of the desert was the beginning of the temp exploits.  Jungle was even worse in this regard.  And yes, I agree that the mosquitoes don't offset it that well.  Though I do somewhat like the feeling of avoiding jungle when I'm navigating long distances.  Too troublesome to go in there.....

Unless we find a solution to the "perfect naked area" problem (on a boundary or blend point between biomes), I'm tempted to make all biomes cold, and some (like arctic) colder.


The general idea is that clothing should help, but not be sufficient.  Buildings should help, but not be sufficient.  Heating should help, but dissipate too much if not contained.

In order to have a perfect temp, clothing, buildings, and heating should be necessary.  Otherwise, you should be cold.

And I guess there should also be some penalty for "overdoing it," or some specialty clothing that is really only viable in the very coldest places.  Like the seal coat.  Maybe you'd wear that for a polar trip, but not generally hang out at home in one.  Also should be possible to overdo it with heat sources.  If you have a fire and a forge and an oven in your house all going at the same time, you should overheat in there, especially if you're wearing warm clothes on top of it all.


Also, when coming into the house, I do not want to encourage you to "strip down" completely.  That would be tedious.  But I would want you to take off your hat, or your polar coat.  Just one thing removed should be enough to regulate you down to perfect.


Maybe clothing alone produces no temp benefit? (In other words, there's no body heat to hold in?)  Maybe it only slows the loss of heat?  Or in general, insulates you from moving closer to your surrounding temp.  Like, maybe people in this game should be cold blooded.

So if you wear a warm coat into a very hot building (forge), it keeps you cool for a while, until you eventually heat up.  Then at that point, taking off the clothing will have no effect (nor will leaving it on), b/c you are at the same temp as the surrounding space.  If you walk out into the cold, however, having clothing on will keep you hot longer.

Likewise, if you are trying to warm up by a fire, keeping clothing on will slow down that process (same in real life, take coat off to warm up by fire).

Or maybe the body heat could be part of this model, but still, clothes hold that in AND slow heat transfer with surrounding env temperature.

what you say is we need more terra-forming and bigger effect on technology rather than conditions.
but thats a good game feature to have good and bad spots, your decisions matter.
peopel will always use biome borders, mainly because not every biome has the resources to start a city. green is needed until you make an axe and farm, swamp is needed for water, others needed for more tools and pen.

temp separate from biome has no visual indicator for heat, then is very hard to realize that you actually overheating because the tiles are hot.
so you either make other visual indicators and drop the biome heats, but then what is difference between two biomes? color?
i dont see it as a good gameplay element that i need to go around checking each tile and map it out if its good or not for a place to live.

rooms should thermo-regulate, like using coal to have central heating in a room, this would require a built in fire place inside wall, and provide medium heat inside a room. this requires work, resources, so its not free.

what if biome borders are actual borders? they dont allow crossing, only in a few places, and those places are extreme cold/hot so the biome borders can never be useful
this only comes in place when they are warmer, as i dont see an issue of cold requirement that often, maybe jungle/desert can never be near ice, other biomes are fair play, no use of it anyway
but deserts would be on higher or lower ground, so you would have only a few places to cross, with some masking it could look more 3d, just as other games did, like Wesnoth

this makes sense cause generally a desert forms after a mountain, where the clouds form before mountain and never cross it

also jungle on lower ground, and on edges is a blocking wall, so you either inside it or outside

people might use this to make walls and rooms, but if these walls dont keep heat inside they wouldnt be too useful, maybe they would use it to exploit, so not impassable walls, but very slow to cross them, so making a farm on a border would be very annoying as you couldnt carry items trough and you would slow down a lot, and step 1 tile at a time

even if we could use this "walls" as caves, makes sense as people often needed protection so they choose sides of mountains near a river to make settlements so i think it fits.

the main issue then, would be the size and shape of desert and jungle, its should be a bit smoother than other biomes, and have a minimum size, but this spots could be smaller in general, and if its walled they could even have a timer on them, so after a while they become locked out, lose their heat

if you want hot clothes, we need cooling clothes as well.

generally as i said in other post, clothing should unlock the slot, unlocking would mean a benefit every time , like underwear, socks and t-shirt, headband. Then people could turn on/off clothes on themselves by clicking this slots. So it requires action to make it perfect, but not so tedious that you need to do it every time. If the biome borders are actual borders, then the only time you need to do it is entering a man made room or going into the ice biome. And this protection/ no shame benefit (people not running around with their ass hanging out)  would be best if clothes have other benefit, like increasing hunger bars. So people would always want to have clothing, at least pants, shoes and headgear.

Now the coat/lack of coat, different coats could be normal heating up the body or cooling it down, the rest could have other buffs/nerfs like shoes for speed, no pants then maybe prevent some actions, like lifting up things? headgear would be maybe just for aesthetics.

nerfing every biome, the current clothes could only increase heat in a full gear to medium in jungle. higher tech clothes could reach medium in normal biome but would be expensive. and something that would be good in desert and the heavy seal coat which would be good in the ice biome, but maybe some other things that could make that closer to medium (i think they should maybe could only be weared in there, and would make sense to live on the edge of it, especially if those biomes only got a few entrances)

now that clothing would become more essential, like you couldnt build walls without having pants on, it would become a main thing everyone should do in every game. but to not make it too tedious, it should be easy, like going into a few places and combining basic resources, im not a fan of getting milkweed and sewing rabbit fur, to make a loin cloth for everyone, more like plant something as use a simple tool on it made from sticks and stones.

Higher tech clothes should be perfect, and require more time to make them and have extra benefits like storage or more design options.

Hats arent that really needed i think so making them aesthetically pleasing, different color, trend, could be every hat unique, doesnt allow to be the same (they should decay in a lifetime)  so their purpose would be differentiating people.

So yeah, make jungles and desert borders actual borders, and some kind of climbing on edges with pressing both left and right click or middle click, people could go trough at a 25% speed. that would make it fairly annoying to use them, also if the edges would be bad, but the middle would be okay, and the size smaller, that would be okay tradeoff to raise babies in a desert ( while also have snakes there) or jungle (while having mosquitoes)
but farming and rooms would be limited . also floors could be heated maybe so would be better on a normal biome.

i dont see other issues on other biomes, so no fragmented desert borders and no good temperature edges would fix the whole thing, its more of a bioeme generation problem than a heat issue. everything can be flat value outside of it. You would need to give other purpose to them, like jungle would be a form of early food base, maybe baby raising and low level clothing making. Desert would be a place to get higher value resources, like sand for glass, or some animal that would produce some very hot clothing, and same in ice biome something that can help on cooling (i guess ice in backback does the trick)

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#63 2019-02-13 15:08:21

Christoffer
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 147
Website

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

A lot can be said about the temperature features. I have looked at it in depth a while ago, and these are the easiest problems to tackle first in order to get a substantial improvement:

1. Replace the heat map calculation
The math model used today is modeling heat transfer in solid materials, e.g. if you put a part of a metal rod into flame, how does the heat transfer within the rod? It is invalid for air temperature and heat from sources like fire. Air does not conduct heat well, that's why we use it as insulation in building materials, in 2-glass and 3-glass windows, down jackets, etc.
Instead you could calculate air temperature for a character's tile much faster and more accurately by doing a quick weighted average over a few of the neighboring tiles, let's say a 3x3 grid. Or use the single tile's biome data directly if you absolutely don't want averages (but there are other ways to make sure that no tile is perfect - air temperature is not the only one, see bullet 3).

2. Heat sources like fire radiate heat. The amount of heat that a person picks up from a fire is a constant divided by the distance squared. E = C/(r*r). This is if there is direct line of sight. If there is a wall between, then E=0. You could easily evaluate the tiles in the line of sight and find walls. You could also decide that some objects are partially blocking if you want.
Tip: deduct 0.3 from the Y coordinate of a fire source when evaluating r. Then r will become 0.3 for a character standing in the same tile as the fire and 0.7 for a character in the tile directly below the fire, which seems reasonable.

3. Think in terms of protection - not simply temperature.
- In a desert, you will die quickly without shoes, because your feet will melt from the sand. The air temperature is not a problem for your survival (unless you are sickly), but if you don't have clothes the sun will kill you by heating up your skin to the temperature of the sand and by evaporating your sweat before your body heat can do it (thus robbing you of your body's cooling system). Walls can block the sun more effectively than clothes can.
- In snow, you will also die without shoes, because touching ground or snow will conduct heat away from your feet. The air temperature is mostly a problem if the air is moving. Air conducts heat poorly, but it can transport heat (convection). You need clothes and/or walls to protect from this as well.
So treat shoes separately from other clothes. Have them be more effective in the extreme cases.
Also have a Sun and Wind effect in addition to Temperature. They don't need to be shown separately - just be part of the equation that determines how far from a perfect state you are.

4. Create an "indoors" state
Check if someone is indoors or not, i.e. protected on all sides by walls, by checking line of sight within a certain radius (5 tiles?)
If you are indoors, you gain protection from negative wind and sun effects, even if the temperature is the same.
If you want, you can also evaluate how indoor heat sources raise the temperature above the outside temperature. Delta-T = a constant * energy output * R-value / wall area. (Heat sinks work the same way if you invent an AC later)
People should also get the direct heat from fire (bullet 2), of course, no matter if they are indoors or outdoors.

Thanks for reading!

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#64 2019-02-13 18:35:45

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 1,673

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

Well, I was hoping that "indoors" would fall out from a natural consequence of the thermal propagation.  I really wanted open vs closed doors to have a huge impact, for example.

I think there is something wrong with my thermal propagation sim, because it doesn't simulate convection at all, so the areas near the heat source are much hotter than areas across the room.  There is some truth to this in reality, but....

In my experience, the radiant heat from a fire is a very short-range effect (probably because of the 1/r^2 factor), and the main effect is from convection in the room.  The room warms up, so both your front and back are warm when facing the fire from across the room.

Outdoors, it seems like the effect is almost entirely based on radiant heat---your back is cold no matter where you stand.

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#65 2019-02-13 18:54:51

Christoffer
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 147
Website

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

One way to look at it is that since one second in game equals 6 days, temperature will always be at equilibrium. So a fire has always been burning for days, and a door has always been open or closed for days. There is no propagating heat. This means that the heat from the fire has raised the room temperature evenly (R-value formula), but a player still get the extra heat from the radiation according to 1/r^2.

I think you are correct about the convection (hot air tends to move). Some of it might come from radiating heat that hits the walls too, not sure what the fractions would be. At equilibrium it doesn't really matter, the R-value formula really simplifies things.

If you do the line of sight thing, why not have a special case for when the door is open (or if a door is missing)? Let a substantial fraction of the heat output disappear that way and use the R-formula for what's left?

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#66 2019-02-13 23:00:27

Kinrany
Member
Registered: 2018-01-22
Posts: 229

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

It would be nice to have no hidden temperature state.  I'm reasonably sure it won't make impossible any of the desired outcomes.  It would be easier to understand body temperature if it was a pure function of the surrounding tiles and their contents.

For example, the doors:

jasonrohrer wrote:

I really wanted open vs closed doors to have a huge impact, for example.

Let's say a tile "has a roof" if there's a wall in 3 tiles or closer.
Let's say a person is "outside" if there's a path shorter than 20 tiles to a tile that does not "have a roof".
Let's say a person is "inside" if she's not "outside".
Give a flat +0.2 heat bonus to everyone who's "inside".

So you need a wall around you to stay warm, but you also can't block yourself off completely.  And being "inside" only 95% of the time is good enough.  Boom, toggleable walls are useful.

A simple model like this will have weird edge cases, but that's fine and even interesting as long as exploiting them is impractical.

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#67 2019-02-13 23:23:23

betame
Member
Registered: 2018-08-04
Posts: 198

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

jasonrohrer wrote:

Well, I was hoping that "indoors" would fall out from a natural consequence of the thermal propagation.  I really wanted open vs closed doors to have a huge impact, for example.

I think there is something wrong with my thermal propagation sim, because it doesn't simulate convection at all, so the areas near the heat source are much hotter than areas across the room.  There is some truth to this in reality, but....

In my experience, the radiant heat from a fire is a very short-range effect (probably because of the 1/r^2 factor), and the main effect is from convection in the room.  The room warms up, so both your front and back are warm when facing the fire from across the room.

Outdoors, it seems like the effect is almost entirely based on radiant heat---your back is cold no matter where you stand.

I think all that is accounted for. Though Christoffer's or Kinrany's models could work and be faster.
Convection and conduction behave similarly. heat transfer = Z(T1-T2). Z for conduction is kA, Z for convection is hA due to hot/cold fluids mixing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_tran … oefficient


So to increase the effects of convection with your current model:
Decrease the rAir (air between tiles is convecting, not conducting anyway)
Decrease the nWeight for the biomeHeat (but this might make floors less impactful)


//// also new idea: add a perfect-temp source (implemented like biomeHeat), that can supply moderating effects.

Last edited by betame (2019-02-14 23:27:59)


Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
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#68 2019-02-13 23:40:09

Booklat1
Member
Registered: 2018-07-21
Posts: 702

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

personally I really like the idea of depending on walls to insulate heat. If it can be done so we have heat propagate in a realistic way and floors moderating the base heat of the tile they're in I'm pretty sure buildings would be at last slightly more used.

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#69 2019-02-14 17:45:53

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 2,535

Re: How should clothes work heat-wise?

well i think the "inside" bonus and the game to recognize something is surrounded, would be nice and more understandable for newbies
also an easy to notice buff, when it matters
so later this could give us preset rooms, like we could build some generic square size room and have attachments to it
making it required for tech advancement
this attachments could be like central heating/cooling
oxygen not included has this code, where a room needs to contain a bed a picture and it becomes a bedroom if it has certain size, buffign sleeping of the dupes
also the kitchen and bathroom has similar requirements and effects

and the ice biome has a fully insulated wall which is hard to break trough so you cannot use the cooling effect of it right away
btw i like their choice of cooling food or decays, or make electricity and build a freezer
so in one hand makes game harder, on other hand it gives options to combat it and its always better to advance in tech

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