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#1 2019-02-17 21:31:07

CrazyEddie
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 676

The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Every tile has a temperature, ranging from freezing to cold to zero to hot to burning. Your temperature is mainly determined by the temperature of the tile you are standing on, which in turn is mainly determined by the biome of that tile. However, your temperature is also affected by the clothing you wear, while the temperature of the tile you are standing on is affected by fires, walls, and floors.

In addition, there is something called "biome shock" that has a large effect on your temperature when you move from one biome to another. And finally, yellow fever also has a large effect on your temperature. Both of these will be discussed after we cover the basics.

---

Clothing:

In the simplest case, where you are standing naked on a single biome, outside, with no nearby walls, floors, or fires, your temperature will rapidly become the same as the biome temperature: freezing in the arctic, hot in the jungle, burning in the desert, and cold in the four normal biomes (grasslands, plains, swamp, and badlands). This is called "reaching equilibrium" with your tile.

Clothing does two things. First, it raises your equilibrium temperature above the temperature of your tile. It makes you warmer on cold tiles, which is good, but it also makes you warmer on hot tiles, which is bad. Edit: As of 2/19 Jason has changed this so that clothing only adds heat when you are on cold tiles, and does not add heat when you are on hot tiles.

Second, clothing slows down the rate at which you reach equilibrium with your tile. If you are naked, you will reach your tile's temperature quickly; if you are clothed, you will take much longer to reach your tile's temperature (or rather, somewhat higher than your tile's temperature, because as noted above, clothing raises your equilibrium temperature). If your current temperature is closer to zero than your tile is - for example, if you were standing near a fire but then walked away into the cold - then that's good. But if your current temperature is further away from zero than your tile is - for example, if you walked in from the cold to stand near a fire - then that's bad.

Fire:

The effect of fire is straight-forward. Fire heats up the tiles that are close to the fire. The closer to the fire, the more the tile's temperature is raised. This is good in cold biomes and bad in hot biomes.

Buildings:

Buildings have two effects. First, they enhance the way that fire heats up the tiles inside the building, in a rather complicated way. And second, they reduce the effect of the biome, in a different rather complicated way.

Airspace:

First, there is a new concept called your "airspace". Your airspace is the 8x8 grid of tiles around your current location, excluding any of those tiles that are separated from you by a wall. If you are outdoors, your airspace is the entire 8x8 grid. If you are in a small room fully enclosed by walls with no open doors, then your airspace is that room and not any of the tiles outside the room. If that same room has an open door, and the tiles outside the open door are within the 8x8 grid around you, then those tiles outside the room are included in your airspace.

If you are inside a large room, in the middle of the room, and the walls of the room are far enough away from you so that they are outside the 8x8 grid around you, then your airspace is the entire 8x8 grid (as if you were outside). If you are in the corner of a large room, then the tiles outside the room on the opposite side of the walls in your corner are not part of your airspace, but the rest of the tiles in the 8x8 grid around you, the ones inside the room, are part of your airspace.

If you are outside and next to a wall, regardless of whether that wall is actually part of a completed room or building, as long as that wall blocks off some of the tiles in the 8x8 grid around you, then those blocked-off tiles are not part of your airspace.

Airspace Insulation:

Your airspace has a certain amount of insulation separating it from everything outside the airspace. This is determined by two things: the degree to which your airspace is bounded by walls rather than by empty space, and the degree to which your airspace has floors.

Each wall making up the edge of your airspace adds a certain amount of insulation. Each piece of floor within your airspace adds a certain amount of insulation. What matters is the average amount of insulation around the borders of your airspace, i.e. whether your airspace is surrounded by walls or is instead surrounded by open space, combined with the average amount of insulation on the floors of all the tiles in your airspace. The more open space your airspace is surrounded by, and the more empty floors your airspace has, the less well-insulated your airspace is.

Fires in buildings and near walls:

Here's the first effect of the airspace: any and all fires within the airspace will heat up the tile you are standing on, even if they are not particularly close to your tile. How much each fire heats up your tile depends on how big your airspace is. The total amount of heat from each fire is divided by the number of tiles in your airspace, so if your airspace is large each fire will only have a small effect.

Furthermore, how effective the fires inside your airspace are depends on how well-insulated your airspace is. If your airspace is poorly-insulated (lots of open edges instead of walls, and lots of tiles without floors) then most of the heat provided by the fires will be lost and will not heat up your tile. If your 8x8 grid (your airspace) is entirely out in the open, with no walls or floors nearby at all, then the fires inside that airspace will not heat up your tile via this extra mechanism (which is called "convection"). They will still heat up your tile normally, if you are close enough to them (which is called "radiant heat").

Floors and Biomes

If your airspace is completely covered in floors, then the effects of your tile's biome are reduced. If you are on a freezing or cold biome, and your airspace is completely floored, then the severity of your tile's biome is reduced, effectively making your tile warmer. The effective coldness of your tile's biome is reduced by the degree of insulation that your airspace has.

The same is true if you are on a hot or burning biome and your airspace is completely floored; the effective heat of your tile's biome is reduced by the degree of insulation that your airspace has, effectively making your tile cooler.

Note that this works even without walls (although without walls, your airspace's insulation will be less and so the warming/cooling effect will be smaller). Note that it does not work, even with walls, unless every tile in the airspace is covered with a floor.

Biome Shock

Whenever you cross a biome border from one of the freezing or cold biomes into one of the burning or hot biomes, or vice versa, you suffer something called "biome shock". In general, your temperature will immediately change from being cold to being hot, or vice versa. Exactly what happens is a little complicated.

Edit: as of 2/22 the way Biome Shock works has been dramatically simplified. The section quoted below is how it worked when I first wrote this post, but now none of it is correct any more:

Consider the case where you are in a cold biome, and cross into a hot biome. Your temperature will immediately change to that biome's natural temperature, moderated by the amount of clothing you have. If you are naked, you will immediately reach that temperature. If you are clothed, you will immediately reach a fraction of that temperature (i.e. still above the zero point of ideal temperature, but not as hot as without clothing). This takes place without any consideration to whether your new tile is inside a building, near any walls or floors, or close to a fire.

The same thing happens when going from a hot biome to a cold biome. You will immediately reach the cold biome's natural temperature, or with clothing a fraction of that temperature (i.e. still below the zero point, but not as cold as without clothing).

There is one important constraint, however. Even if you have clothing (which would normally make your immediate new temperature close to the zero point), your new temperature will always be at least as far away from zero as it was before you stepped into the new biome. So if you are fully clothed, but freezing (because, for example, you have been in a freezing biome for a long time), and step into a hot biome (like a jungle), your temperature will immediately go to burning (even though a jungle's natural temperature is only hot, not burning).

After the immediate change, your temperature will continue to adjust to the new tile's actual temperature as normal, including any considerations from buildings, walls, floors, and fires. And as usual, clothing will slow down that adjustment.

As of 2/22 Biome Shock works like this, as per Jason's description:

When crossing from a too-cool to a too-hot biome (or vice versa), you shock to the mirror-image position on the temperature meter. Clothing does not affect this. After flip-flopping on the temperature meter, you then gradually go up (or down) towards the biome's target temperature. This gradual change is slowed by clothing, as usual. This means that crossing a biome boundary will never cause a sudden increase (or decrease) in your hunger rate.


Fever

If you get bitten by a mosquito, in addition to dropping everything you are carrying, you will have an additional amount of heat added to you above and beyond whatever other temperature would you otherwise be at.

In order to not starve, you'll need to lower your temperature as much as possible. If you are already on a cool or cold tile, you may be fine, although you may want to move to a colder or freezing spot if possible.

If you are on a warm or hot tile, you will need to move to a cold tile ASAP. Here is one case where you can use biome shock to your advantage. When you cross from a burning or hot biome tile to a cold or freezing biome tile, and you have fever, you still suffer biome shock but the clothing modifier is ignored and you are not prevented from having your temperature get closer to zero. This is a special case just to allow people to survive yellow fever.

Note that if you get yellow fever on a cold biome (due to mosquitoes being present in a foreign biome, which can happen), if you then move to a freezing biome, biome shock will not take place and your clothing will prevent you from more rapidly cooling down. Biome shock only applies when crossing from hot or burning biomes into cold or freezing biomes, not when crossing from cold biomes to freezing biomes. You may need to first cross into hot or burning biome, which will trigger biome shock and cause your temperature to go to the max hot, then cross again into a cold or freezing biome, which will cause your temperature to go to cold or freezing (plus the fever penalty). Note that this move could itself be dangerous.

---

I tried to make this explanation as simple as I could while still being complete. Please point out anywhere that I might have overlooked something or simply gotten something wrong. Also note that Jason could make further changes at any time, so if you're reading this from the future please accept my apologies for it being out-of-date.

Last edited by CrazyEddie (2019-02-28 17:23:48)

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#2 2019-02-18 01:09:43

betame
Member
Registered: 2018-08-04
Posts: 202

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

This is great, thanks! Matches everything I saw while trying to reason about the new heat magic.
This'll be the new temperature link in my signature!

Dropping this here since it helps interpret the temperature meter:
getting warmer saves a lot more food when you're freezing and isn't as important once you're half-cold.

FoodConsumedPerHour = 3600/[2+20*(1-2*|heat-0.5|)]
Here's the graph of that equation:
cBOK71il.png

Last edited by betame (2019-02-18 02:31:14)


Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info

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#3 2019-02-18 01:55:50

Peremptive
Member
Registered: 2019-02-14
Posts: 199

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

thanks for the post! has anyone tested rooms in hot biomes yet?

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#4 2019-02-18 03:33:19

CrazyEddie
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 676

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

betame - Maybe you can help me puzzle something out. Previous calculations and measurements showed that being naked in a normal (cold) biome drained food at 4.8 seconds per pip. Jason specifically tweaked the new numbers so that that stayed the same, and I just now measured it myself and got the same result: 4.8 seconds per pip.

But here's the thing - I could swear that the temperature meter is a lot further to the left now when being naked in a normal biome than it was before the update. Even though the food drain now matches our notes on what it had been before.

Any thoughts here? Am I just misremembering where the meter used to sit?

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#5 2019-02-18 06:22:22

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,267

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

hard to see but it seems to be 1/10 naked, but if its 4.8 per pip, than is 12.5 pip per minute, which is 750 per hour which is 0.5 heat coeficience on the curve
based on this picture https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5313
full fur makes you 3/10 which is around 300 pip per 60
a berry bush grows back in 8 min which is 100 pip naked which is 3 bushes per a person
or with wild food 10 min which is 125 pip needed, 25   bushes per person

am i counting it wrong?


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#6 2019-02-18 06:50:00

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,239

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

So since walls have 90% insulation : https://onetech.info/885-Stone-Wall
Bear skin rug has 95% : https://onetech.info/656-Bear-Skin-Rug

And having closed space is not practical because of tile occupation for a kitchen/forge for example,
is it better to make no walls and all the floorings bear skin or do walls have an other advantage compared to flooring?

Also if you have a tile with a wooden floor/bear skin rug and a wall on top of it does insulation stack or does it only count only the wall?

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#7 2019-02-18 06:50:56

Nepumuk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-09
Posts: 62

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Yes you are misremembering the temp bar. Here is old on top and new below it (for naked in neutral biome)

Temp


You can check this yourself by looking at streamer/YT videos from before the update or old screenshots.

Last edited by Nepumuk (2019-02-18 06:52:43)


I am Eve Speed.

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#8 2019-02-18 09:59:51

betame
Member
Registered: 2018-08-04
Posts: 202

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Playtested in tutorial, got about 4.9 which is an improvement from the 4.8! The math supports it as well.

see Greep's thread

the graphs I made here are not correct!!!


The body heat that clothes try to trap is 10.25 / 20
When not wearing any clothes, air insulates us with 0.04
1.1 is a constant that was meant to put neutral biomes at 4.8 pips per second
ClothingR is the sum of the insulation values you see on OneTech

In a neutral biome, the temperature you'll eventually reach is:
(10.25+((1−(0.04+ClothingR−ClothingR×0.04))×(1.1−10.25)))÷20
EhzZqT3l.png



But more importantly:

Clothing and Hunger

g0J5iQ7l.png



And since some parents want to know when to return to their kid:
kGK6ZTzl.png

**sorry, the linear interpolation is by 0.05 insulation
You can theoretically achieve perfect temp at ~97.2% clothingR

Last edited by betame (2019-03-07 12:45:31)


Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info

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#9 2019-02-18 10:43:19

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,267

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

8x8 is even, the middle is the crosshatch lines, the center is shifted NW

walls have an advantage, you are on top left tile of a 8x8 so fire should be on middle of room to make the whole room better, exactly middle top left (guy with python script told us once)
the size of room shouldn't be more than 8x8 as then the center might be in our out of equation, but this just depends on fire and your position
depending on that information, if you standing where the goose is(sorry i don't have human stamps) you are in the middle of room
this means you can be on any tile and the fire is part of your airspace

i dotn know the ideal config yet
what i know that a small fire is almost ideal in normal biome
a big fire is like 7/10 hot inside a floored room
near fire is like 3-3.5/10 the tile next to it
this room was like 6x7 or such so that changes with room size, i guess we need smaller than that and the fire 1 tile from walls

The shifted NW center means a few things:
you start with a corner, not a straight wall
you start on nw corner as you can block out more airspace standing in top left corner
you put fire around the top left corner
i have no clue if you don't close up all the room, the airspace will be like light (blocked on wall so the "shadow" is excluded or like aura: only matters if you got enclosed place at least 8 tiles wide/tall (ofc is cheaper to have a long or tall room, but it wont be efficient on free tiles/wall ratio
square rooms are best(middle tile needs no wall, square has more middle tiles than rectangles)

if you don't have a finished room, its still better to make a corner as the walls block out some (cant confirm yet)

UL09wgJ.jpg


what he saying is the fire heat depends on size of the room, so if you want hotter room, you need smaller than 8x8
if you got bigger than 8x8 you might need multiple fire
any case you need all floors so don't make it near ponds/rabbit/cacti, anything unremovable

Mfx8n0u.jpg
if you are on the position of the cow, then you got smaller airspace, that averages out better than having the entire 8x8 around you
so how can  get more heat from a fire?
obviously floors, close the area with walls and doors and put the fire in top left corner
R96Igxl.png
so if you put the fire like this, and stand on corner like the goose, should result the biggest gain from a fire
i don't say its ideal before i test it, but we need to test room sizes and fire positions to find out where a naked person is on middle temperature

also im not quite sure, but top picture i put the doors outside of 8x8, that should result in better temperature even if the door is open
you lose the room insulation but still have the floor bonus and fire bonus

so this means that you should not have the door on middle, you should have it on sides
and based on the NW displacement, i would say have a door on SE side and maybe one on East side so its harder to block it

if you want more space, then build more 8x8 rooms next to each other with fire on the middle
based on my experience so far, i want smaller room with a top left corner fire, that means 5x5 for me

and before you ask why would you care? that's a 25% bonus just by choosing fire position in the ideal corner, that worth a shot.


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#10 2019-02-18 10:46:22

stew
Member
Registered: 2019-02-13
Posts: 47

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Hey. the part about a fire indoor but without floor. A fire still heats up this building right? And a fire also heats up a building that is bigger then 8x8 if all doors closed. right?

When a door is opened. Is the head gone instantly?

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#11 2019-02-18 10:47:47

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,267

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Izzytok wrote:

Alright, I set up a simple python script that imitates the way heat is calculated inside the game (didn't bother with insulation yet).

One thing I noticed, was that heat is calculated in a square around the player, but the player is not in the middle of this square. The heat is calculated inside an 8x8 square, taking into account heat sources from a 10x10 square. The player is set at (5,5), which is slightly off from center (you can't put the player inside the center of a square whose sides are even numbers). What this means is it will take into account a heat source that is diagonally up and left from you 5 squares away, in all other directions only 4 squares diagonally.

i quoted the original post from long ago, last year 5th month, i guess this part didn't change

stew wrote:

Hey. the part about a fire indoor but without floor. A fire still heats up this building right? And a fire also heats up a building that is bigger then 8x8 if all doors closed. right?

When a door is opened. Is the head gone instantly?

simply put you carry a box around you which is 64 tiles
if you move, it becomes different 64 tiles, unless it has walls, then they get some bonus from walls and floors
for example you optimize all 64 tiles then is 100%
without walls but floors, you will lose the wall insulation, but have some reduced cold/reduced heat effect from biome
so if you go to a room, the box around you will become smaller than 8x8, and calculates with the indoor tiles only, if a 4x4 has average perfect heat, you will be closer to perfect

the problem is, if its bigger than 8*8, you can be on a side and the fire the other side, you get no benefit from radiant heat (up 5 left 5, down 4 and right 4), standing outside of the fire range, also  you are outside the range if not standing 4-5 away from a fire, which means a room with a corner fire heats the corner more but the rest is lower
ryp6f77.jpg

think about it that instead of a fire, you got 1000 liter water in a pool, and you need waist high to swim, the bigger the pool, the thinner the water layer. by increasing the pool, you decrease the depth. so you either need another 1000 liter water, or keep it smaller. and can even be too deep

we should test out different sizes with center fires, then 1 diagonal from corner fires

the solution might be 2 fires which is manageable with pine planting which also gives more butt logs for floors

what makes is worse, clothing already modifies the calculation and then there is the random oven and forge fire

forge needs lot of free space
oven not so much, maybe split load in 2 separate rooms with 1 oven each
i don't think indoor farming is good idea or it would be any warmer without floors

you can still reuse 25% of wall by building other room next to it, always going for square shape to save even more like 2 rooms of 5x5 then a 10x10 under it
a nursery could technically be a very small room then the kitchen under it, then a similar size room to fill the space, which is dropping off resources, as lot of times you just need a pie or drop off the sheep meat/clothes/firewood so the inner door can be closed until people fill the input, then they put the output out, and one door is always closed

PHG7jfS.jpg

Last edited by pein (2019-02-18 12:04:24)


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#12 2019-02-18 12:56:02

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,520

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Thanks for the information Eddie. Since all tiles need wood flooring, it sounds like that at least the forge, if not the oven also will have to move. Or do I misunderstand things and stakes can get put on the same space as a kiln?  I haven't tried that admittedly, but I can't imagine that working.  Players have to destroy a kiln and rebuild things now or move it, build all these buildings, build wood flooring, there does not exist any way to get any farmers to good temperature like before, but the game isn't harder?  Sounds to me like you've provided more evidence that the game has become harder.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-02-18 13:04:35)


Danish Clinch.

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#13 2019-02-18 14:39:17

Peremptive
Member
Registered: 2019-02-14
Posts: 199

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Spoonwood wrote:

Thanks for the information Eddie. Since all tiles need wood flooring, it sounds like that at least the forge, if not the oven also will have to move. Or do I misunderstand things and stakes can get put on the same space as a kiln?  I haven't tried that admittedly, but I can't imagine that working.  Players have to destroy a kiln and rebuild things now or move it, build all these buildings, build wood flooring, there does not exist any way to get any farmers to good temperature like before, but the game isn't harder?  Sounds to me like you've provided more evidence that the game has become harder.


Yes, forges and bakeries need to be placed on top of wooden floors for insulation to work. The best way in the current game to have good temp is to go inside, take off all clothes, put them back on, go out, repeat every 30 sec.

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#14 2019-02-18 16:00:23

CrazyEddie
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 676

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

I'm copying what I said in this thread over here, since it's probably a better place for a technical discussion:

Make rooms large and completely floored. Leave open spaces in the walls for going in and out. Don't bother with putting doors on them. Place floors outside the entrance for two or three tiles' width. Place fires just inside the entrance.

This will preserve almost all of the convection bonus and biome-reduction bonus for the area inside the walls, even with open doors, and the radiant heat bonus from the fire in the doorway will compensate somewhat for the few tiles near the doorway that don't receive the entire biome-reduction bonus.

In fact, you can dispense with walls and doors entirely with only a small reduction in the heat bonuses. The most important part is the flooring; walls contribute far less to a space's insulation than flooring does. The main thing that walls (and closed doors) do is define the space within which all tiles must have floors in order to get the full bonus. You can cheat this by putting floors everywhere, and realizing that the full biome-protection effect only begins three tiles in from the edge of the flooring.

This won't maximize the heat bonus since it leaves off the insulation from the walls, but floors are so much more important than walls - every floor is counted four times when adding up the insulation totals, whereas each wall is counted only once. It's right there in the code: floor insulation values are quadrupled.

But trying to get a perfect heat environment inside a building while relying on closed doors is probably wasted effort. Doors are a nuisance; let's work around them rather than trying to accomodate them.

Likewise, maximizing the heat bonus of the new room system requires small rooms, due to the 8x8 airspace grid. Any wall that's more than three or four tiles away from where you are standing effectively doesn't exist. So I say screw it. Make large rooms, give up the wall bonus, and rely on the floor bonus. We all know that we need workspaces that are large and uncluttered; let's not drive ourselves crazy trying to work in cramped rooms just to get that last bit of insulation bonus.

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#15 2019-02-18 16:16:56

CrazyEddie
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 676

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

stew wrote:

Hey. the part about a fire indoor but without floor. A fire still heats up this building right? And a fire also heats up a building that is bigger then 8x8 if all doors closed. right?

When a door is opened. Is the head gone instantly?

A fire inside a building still provides heat two ways. All fires heat up the tiles very close to them (radiant heat) and this is true regardless of walls or floors. Inside a building, fires add even more heat to the tiles that are within the 8x8 grid around them (convection heat), unless they are blocked by walls, and they do this whether the space has floors or not, although they'll heat more effectively if there are floors.

Fires inside buildings don't add any convection heat to any tiles that are outside the fire's 8x8 grid or that are blocked from the fire by walls. If the building is bigger than 8x8, the tiles within the fire's 8x8 grid will get convection heat but the rest of the building will not.

Convection heat changes instantly when a door is opened or closed. But your heat is only evaluated every two seconds. So whether you get the full benefit of convection or only a much smaller benefit from convection depends on whether or not the door is open at the moment your heat is evaluated. If you watch your temperature bar you can see the pointer move every two seconds; if you open a door and then immediately close it between those moves, it won't affect your heat. Bear in mind it might affect someone else's, because everyone's pointers move at different times.

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#16 2019-02-18 16:17:58

CrazyEddie
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 676

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Nepumuk wrote:

Yes you are misremembering the temp bar.

Thanks! Good to know. Memory is fickle.

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#17 2019-02-18 16:26:45

CrazyEddie
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 676

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Dodge wrote:

So since walls have 90% insulation : https://onetech.info/885-Stone-Wall
Bear skin rug has 95% : https://onetech.info/656-Bear-Skin-Rug

And having closed space is not practical because of tile occupation for a kitchen/forge for example,
is it better to make no walls and all the floorings bear skin or do walls have an other advantage compared to flooring?

Also if you have a tile with a wooden floor/bear skin rug and a wall on top of it does insulation stack or does it only count only the wall?

The insulation value of the space is [ (R value of the walls enclosing the space) + ( 4 * R value of the floors in the space) ] / (total number of tiles in the space)

But notice that here "space" doesn't mean the room, it means the 8x8 grid surrounding wherever you are standing. The main purpose of walls is to block off that grid from spilling out past the walls into the uninsulated space beyond them.

I think we can do without them just by putting floors everywhere.

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#18 2019-02-18 16:38:23

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 3,932

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

You know ... I hate opening doors.   Is there any reason why we can't just live in open tunnels?


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Or ....

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I'm think five or seven tiles wide.  Fire in the middle, top/bottom wide open.   Everything floored.  You lose the benifit of a fully enclosed room, but it would be easy to extend or add a new tunnel parallel to the first one.   If you build big enough, you could even have bakery on top, nursery around main fire in middle and smithy at bottom.   Only major issue is you would want to position the building in such a way that the open sides are aimed in the direction most people are needing to go.  Otherwise, walking around the long walls would take too much time and you would need to put in door which would get left open.

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#19 2019-02-18 19:08:50

Peremptive
Member
Registered: 2019-02-14
Posts: 199

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

if walls are beyond the 8x8 grid, do they matter?

to put it another way, if you are in the middle of a 15x15 floor with no walls around it, or a 15x15 room with floor, is there a difference? Or will there only be a difference for those at the sides of the room (because their 8x8 box goes outside of a floor area)? What if you light a fire, will it heat up more if there are walls versus no walls?

Last edited by Peremptive (2019-02-18 19:09:37)

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#20 2019-02-18 19:40:16

CrazyEddie
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 676

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Peremptive wrote:

if walls are beyond the 8x8 grid, do they matter?

No. But note that the grid moves with you, so when you move closer to the walls, they will matter again.

to put it another way, if you are in the middle of a 15x15 floor with no walls around it, or a 15x15 room with floor, is there a difference?

No.

Or will there only be a difference for those at the sides of the room (because their 8x8 box goes outside of a floor area)?

Correct. Those near the edge of a walled room will get the full convection bonus and the full biome reduction. Those near the edge of an unwalled room will get a reduced convection bonus and will get no biome reduction at all.

What if you light a fire, will it heat up more if there are walls versus no walls?

If the fire is in the middle of the 15x15 room, no.

If the fire is near the edge, the radiant heat from the fire will be the same in both cases, but that only goes a short distance. The convection heat from the fire will be rather different between the two cases. There will be more convection heat added to each tile if there are walls than if there are no walls, for two reasons.

First, without walls, the airspace includes the tiles in the 8x8 grid that extend out past the edge of the floor, whereas with walls, the airspace stops at the wall. That means that with walls, the airspace is smaller. The smaller airspace means that the heat from the fire is more concentrated, so more heat is added to the tile you're on.

Second, the walls increase the average insulation of the airspace. That means that more of the fire's heat is retained within the airspace and less heat leaks out of the airspace (where it disappears).

---

But note that biome reduction is probably even more important than either of these two convection heat effects (this is my estimate; I haven't done any calculations). And in the case where you are near the edge of a 15x15 floored "room" but there are no walls, then you will get no biome reduction at all, because your airspace includes tiles outside the "room" and those tiles have no floors, and only airspaces that are completely covered with floors get any biome reduction at all.

Standing in the middle of the 15x15 floored "room" gives you full biome reduction, even without walls, because your airspace extends only to the 8x8 grid, and that grid is entirely floored; the lack of walls don't matter.

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#21 2019-02-19 01:26:42

omlinson
Member
Registered: 2019-01-23
Posts: 45

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

CrazyEddie wrote:

Biome Shock

Whenever you cross a biome border from one of the freezing or cold biomes into one of the burning or hot biomes, or vice versa, you suffer something called "biome shock". In general, your temperature will immediately change from being cold to being hot, or vice versa. Exactly what happens is a little complicated.

It seems to sometimes two can get shocked twice in a row when the automated path walks through like 2 to 3 hot tiles from and to a colder biome. Seems like a bit overkill but it might have been my imagination when it happened.

I'd have assume biome shock would scale with the size of the biome.

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#22 2019-02-19 02:46:29

JoshuaN
Member
Registered: 2019-02-12
Posts: 70

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

omlinson wrote:

I'd have assume biome shock would scale with the size of the biome.

Biome shock occurs even with a single tile. If example: there was a square of swamp in a desert, walking 1 step into the swamp biome 1x1 was all it took to shock me. However, shock only occurs when you stay in the opposite biome long enough for your heat to update. You can get away with running through 1-2 squares as long as there is a safer biome on the other side. Its not instant because its still waiting for the next heat step.


Sustenance~   ( ・・)つ―{}@{}@{}-

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#23 2019-02-19 13:35:52

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,520

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Eddie, I'm not following room size exactly.

First, I want to say that I'm not so much interested in what will work on the bigserver.  I'm more interested in solo or low population play and what would be the ideal sort of setup for play on a low population server.  Is 8x8 the interior of the room, the walkable tiles, or does that include the walls?  I mean, if the interior is 8x8, then the wall structure (including doors) is 10x10.  If the wall structure is 8x8, then the interior is 6x6.  Which one will maintain heat best for every tile (or the most tiles in the room)?  Or 7x7 interior with a 9x9 wall structure?  Is there another size of structure that you recommend for solo/low population play where you don't have to worry much about the doors getting opened up if you're in that area?

Someone the discord has said things like "For an 8x8 internal room, the center* tile won't notice any walls", so I'm not clear on this topic.  Thanks in advance for answering any of my questions.  I do appreciate your work.  Oh wait... reading Pein's followup it's probably 8x8 interior with a fire in the middle.  But drat... the middle area I've found really convenient to put a hammer and a stone when having a vertical flat rock structure in between two kilns.  Hmmm... maybe 8x8 with a fire at the bottom of the middle section.  Except, when I'm just organizing and don't have a fire going, that might mean the middle spot is a heat sink?  I'm just not clear on all of this.


Danish Clinch.

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#24 2019-02-19 14:12:07

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 3,932

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

Does anyone have a private server running that could be used for testing?

I'd love to play around with building different sized rooms and configurations, but I can't work out how to get a local server running on my computer for solo play.  I'm not terribly tech-sauve.

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#25 2019-02-19 14:23:45

stew
Member
Registered: 2019-02-13
Posts: 47

Re: The New Temperature System, Explained Simply

CrazyEddie wrote:

Any wall that's more than three or four tiles away from where you are standing effectively doesn't exist. So I say screw it. Make large rooms, give up the wall bonus, and rely on the floor bonus..

Okey.. why even make rooms/walls then? Just place floor everywhere. Maybe use the stone you would have used for walls for stonefloor, that will visually separate the working areas.



@DestinyCalls: Setup a windows server is super easy: Download the win_full folder: https://github.com/Awbz/OneLife/release … Life+_v199
Then go into the serverfolder. run the .bat file (for me the bat file didnt work, so I had to copy the commands and run them in a cmd(commandline), the .bat only create a few softlinks). After that run the server exe then connect to localhost. There are ini files in a config folder, on of them you can set at which age you die. Set it higher and you have more time to test.

Last edited by stew (2019-02-19 14:29:16)

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