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#1 2019-02-13 05:04:29

fragilityh14
Member
Registered: 2018-03-21
Posts: 556

Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

Recently, in several different conversations i have seen it discussed that you can't get people to eat bowls of food. With the yum bonus, having different bowls of food around is very useful.

Some people decry seeking the yum bonus, but if in a life you eat a pie, a berry, a stew, a green bean, a bread, a carrot, a mango slice, a popcorn, etc you're really optimizing.

It isn't that hard if there is diverse food around the camp.


I recently have made some efforts at delivering foods, and also played a game as a stewmaker, [including the farming] doing some delivery and saying "eat stew" when i set bowls down.

in a medium sized village with at least 15 people around, only one of four total stewpots I made was emptied, and i ate quite a lot of stew and filled bowls and set them all over  [i also made compost and cared for berries etc, it didn't take me a whole life to make 4 pots of stew]. Really, seemingly only in the kitchen did they understand to eat the stew, and even so, they seemed reticent to do so. The village wasn't starving, but still, I left stew bowls around and pretty much no one ate them.



So, why aren't people eating food?



well, for one thing i was worried I'd get yelled at by the baker for "stealing" pies, despite that I was making food just off screen.

But also, maybe people have just been yelled at so much about what they eat they just stand around berries despite that everyone hates them for it [and it's infinitely frustrating to feel the need to take care of them as an adult, because it's the perfect kid job].



With the yum bonus it makes sense that people eat more things. We just need to train the player base to do it. The practical thing, is making it feasible for delivering food and collecting bowls and plates to be a job.

The big obstacle to this is a lack of stackability. If a person can carry 5 bowls of different things and set them down, we can teach people over time to actually eat different foods.

Cause it really is ridiculous that stewpots just sit there and almost no one eats what is one of the best in town foods.


I'll tell you what I tell all my children: Make basket, always carry food.

Listen to your mom!

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#2 2019-02-13 05:19:36

narla_hotep
Member
Registered: 2019-02-12
Posts: 17

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

See, I'm that asshole that just eats the pies and stew anyway, then takes one for the road. Thanks for validating my habits! tongue

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#3 2019-02-13 06:43:39

ruanna
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 42

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

There are too many things that go into bowls and most of them are not edible. So newbies don't recognise them as food, and a random bowl on the ground won't ping the 'this is food' recognition. To make it recognisable as food, have the crocks lined up and put the bowl next to the crock.

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#4 2019-02-13 06:49:31

Booklat1
Member
Registered: 2018-07-21
Posts: 1,042

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

You don't really optimize yum by eating bad foods like popcorn and green beans, please avoid those.

yum is good with meat pies, milk, bread, stew and free foods. Its better to reset your yum and start yum chains with ood foods once you're to the point of eating foods that cost much and feed you little.

There are some threads in ths forum about the costs of food, some of them have good discussions on yum, but mostly I think it should be known that the costs of some foods (each corn plant costs 1 water, 1-2 soil and a till) make them much worse than others (pies cost effectively 0.25 water if you consider them sideproducts of compost), even considering yum.

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#5 2019-02-13 07:49:05

Grim_Arbiter
Member
Registered: 2018-12-30
Posts: 942

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

Booklat1 wrote:

You don't really optimize yum by eating bad foods like popcorn and green beans, please avoid those.

yum is good with meat pies, milk, bread, stew and free foods. Its better to reset your yum and start yum chains with ood foods once you're to the point of eating foods that cost much and feed you little.

There are some threads in ths forum about the costs of food, some of them have good discussions on yum, but mostly I think it should be known that the costs of some foods (each corn plant costs 1 water, 1-2 soil and a till) make them much worse than others (pies cost effectively 0.25 water if you consider them sideproducts of compost), even considering yum.

As someone who just started taking yum more seriously and actually getting pretty high chains, those popcorn bowls and green beans actually can be useful if combined with a medium food you haven't eaten like a cactus fruit or cooked mutton. If you are traveling outside the village, those wild foods can be good in between foods for yum chaining as well.

Chaining yum is definitely something you should teach to the newer players.


--Grim
I'm flying high. But the worst is never first, and there's a person that'll set you straight. Cancelling the force within my brain. For flying high. The simulator has been disengaged.

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#6 2019-02-13 07:59:01

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,520

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

I think popcorn and green beans good foods.  I wouldn't start a fire just to cook popcorn, but if you have one going making it makes for a huge bonus.  I do agree that both whole milk and skim milk is a better use of corn *given that you have to choose between popcorn and milk*, if the settlement can spare a bucket or two and has cows (unless things have changed much, a lot of settlements get cows late).  But other than that, I think I'd still take popcorn, green beans, and shucked corn over stew.  The thing about popcorn, green beans, and shucked corn comes as that you can eat them and perhaps even eat something else with minimal to no overfilling of the pip bar for more yum earlier.

I will reiterate one thing.  All of the discussions about the value of say stew versus mutton pie presume that a settlement has to choose between those two foods for some unknown reasons.  That's the only context in which 'bad foods' makes sense to me.  Seriously, with all this 'bad food' talk, a colony may as well all just eat wild berries since those regenerate, and thus a colony that theoretically ate only wild berries would, over time, would have the most food without spending water, soil, or kindling.

Also, the fastest path to having good yum probably isn't with milk, bread, and stew since bread requires a knife, milk requires a bucket, and stew requires three different crop types.  The fastest path to having good yum consists of 7 out of the 8 pie types (excluding mutton pie which requires a knife), with the exception as mutton pie.  The only thing that differs comes as collecting some wild or domestic berries in a bowl, and getting some wild or domestic carrots.


Danish Clinch.

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#7 2019-02-13 09:42:43

Grim_Arbiter
Member
Registered: 2018-12-30
Posts: 942

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

Spoonwood wrote:

I will reiterate one thing.  All of the discussions about the value of say stew versus mutton pie presume that a settlement has to choose between those two foods for some unknown reasons.  That's the only context in which 'bad foods' makes sense to me.  Seriously, with all this 'bad food' talk, a colony may as well all just eat wild berries since those regenerate, and thus a colony that theoretically ate only wild berries would, over time, would have the most food without spending water, soil, or kindling.

Also, the fastest path to having good yum probably isn't with milk, bread, and stew since bread requires a knife, milk requires a bucket, and stew requires three different crop types.  The fastest path to having good yum consists of 7 out of the 8 pie types (excluding mutton pie which requires a knife), with the exception as mutton pie.  The only thing that differs comes as collecting some wild or domestic berries in a bowl, and getting some wild or domestic carrots.

It's funny you say that, but like the first half month I played I tried strictly to eat wild foods. I didn't want to depend on food that I didn't know how to make, which might or might not be there. Now that I know how to make the food I dont do that obviously.. but I imagine people that live off the land when on a supply run like I do help with the food supply.

As for bread I always bake it as a chef. Sure it's a wildcard with the knife aspect of it but that and cooking a couple mutton oversupply can help out for yum. As for the pies, if you're getting those from the wild just be mindful of wild carrots. Don't take the close ones people will need when the carrot cycle needs restarting.


--Grim
I'm flying high. But the worst is never first, and there's a person that'll set you straight. Cancelling the force within my brain. For flying high. The simulator has been disengaged.

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#8 2019-02-13 11:11:00

Booklat1
Member
Registered: 2018-07-21
Posts: 1,042

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

You dont HAVE TO choose between foods, its just more cost effective than not doing so, which people seem to greatly disregard in favor of a low reward yum bonus.


Yums helps the individuals that want to forget about eating for minutes and also helps females getting babies. And that is pretty much it.


betame did some math on yums and actually found that eating popcorn at the end of a mutton pie + berry +bowl of berries + bread + popcorn is better than eating just pie. But then again, stopping the chain at bread and starting it again is even better. A bite of popcorn takes 12 yum bonus to be as good as pie and at a higher cost. You don't offset this by adding the four wild foods as freebies to your yum value. In fact, you have to count on every single piece of popcorn being yumed in that manner for betame's math to even be true, which is just unlikely.


I swear, it's like you people are trying to convince me that you'd rather have 10 bucks with some spare change as a >bonus< than straight up having 50 bucks.


I've done lots of yum chaining, feels good to not eat for a while, but don't act like you are doing it for good resource management.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-02-13 11:11:54)

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#9 2019-02-13 11:49:12

Grim_Arbiter
Member
Registered: 2018-12-30
Posts: 942

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

I like both those things listed.

And in big towns I do chain that high if I'm horse carting iron or rabbits.

It is pretty moot though because like the original post said, we just need people to eat more foods.

Whatever gets people away from the noob fields at the end of the day works for me. Berries are compost and sheep feed first. I think I was actually in fragilityh's town just now. I had to throw bowls of stew at two starving moms, who were standing by the dead berry patches saying there wasn't any food. They literally just hit me with question marks and I had to show them that yes, other food other than berries and pie exist. Plate and bowl availability should be more noted than it usually is, as that variable can be the biggest deciding factor for what foods need to be made and when.


--Grim
I'm flying high. But the worst is never first, and there's a person that'll set you straight. Cancelling the force within my brain. For flying high. The simulator has been disengaged.

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#10 2019-02-13 12:40:10

betame
Member
Registered: 2018-08-04
Posts: 202

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

Booklat1 wrote:

betame did some math on yums and actually found that eating popcorn at the end of a mutton pie + berry +bowl of berries + bread + popcorn is better than eating just pie. But then again, stopping the chain at bread and starting it again is even better. A bite of popcorn takes 12 yum bonus to be as good as pie and at a higher cost. You don't offset this by adding the four wild foods as freebies to your yum value. In fact, you have to count on every single piece of popcorn being yumed in that manner for betame's math to even be true, which is just unlikely.

here was that post
It all depends on what metric you use to rate foods. (If you're looking to save iron, berries are only bested by milk.) I think the most important metric is labor, but that's not easy to put numbers on. Resource cost is easier to figure out, but it still can only describe the ideal case.

If you're looking at water+soil+till equally, then mutton pie (from scratch) is surpassed by popcorn at 4 yum, by mutton at 8 yum, by carrots at 17 yum, and by corn at 19 yum.
each 15 pip bite of mutton pie costs .465 total
each 3 pip bite of popcorn costs .1875 total
each 12 pip bite of mutton costs .612 total
each 7 pip bite of carrot costs .733 total
each 5 pip bite of corn costs .75 total

All in all: play how you want.
If you're trying to save time by yumming, then each unique bite should take less time to find/make than making an easy food.
If you're trying to save resources by yumming, then only eat ~costly~ foods if you plan to chain your yum very long.

Last edited by betame (2019-02-13 23:51:46)


Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info

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#11 2019-02-13 14:37:43

stew
Member
Registered: 2019-02-13
Posts: 47

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

Lets say your YUM bonus is at 10 and you have to decide to either restart YUM bonus or eat some "bad food". lets say you eat 3 bad foods. that is 11+12+13 (total of 36) extra food in YUM bonus. That's a lot of extra food. Popcorn raw corn or green beans are not so good, but when it comes with a +11 extra food, it's super good.

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#12 2019-02-13 16:31:58

fragilityh14
Member
Registered: 2018-03-21
Posts: 556

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

Something to remember here is food isn't actually that scarce. People worry about overpopulation, but i an agricultural village that's only of bad players.

in my life i produced the 4 bowls of stew, did 3 sisters farming, as well as making  a fair amount of compost and spreading soil, taking care of quite a lot of berries, and doing all sorts of odds and ends as necessary. 

I'm not a particularly efficient eater, and i clearly produced massively more than a lifetime worth of food.


People who haven't yum chained don't actually understand how worthwhile it is. Maybe not if you're spending all game doing it. But a green bean bowl can be eaten from 6 times. if everyone only uses that as part of a yum chain of 6, it's ultimately produced 5 over the amount it's normally worth.

A bite of popcorn is what, 1/10th of a corn plant, so 1/10 a cup of soil, and 1/10 a cup of water, one use of hoe? and we have fire powered wells now and compost produces what, 21 bowls of soil out of what, 4 1/3rd cups of soil and, and 3 1/3rd cups of water and 2 1/3rd uses of iron implements? AND you get 4 mutton pies per compost batch. If anything, the main argument against other foods is that mutton pies are a byproduct anyway.

Point is though, soil is not actually scarce if someone takes the time to make compost.


And how could stew be a bad food? it takes one squash, one corn, and one bowl of beans. so 2 1/4 soil, 3 1/4 water, and one kindling. I'm not sure how many uses it gets, but it's, but quite a lot, and it's cheap to make.



Regarding numbers of plates and bowls: that is an issue. In that same game I did spend my last hours collecting some clay, there had been kind of a chronic shortage of plates and bowls, especially as my bowls of stew were getting left all over.




i would add, in another game i ran to the kitchen area to tell people berries were out, both so they would know for necessary things and so no one would expect them when low on food. Once i said it was scared of getting stabbed for being a berry eating noob. Fortunately the person just told me were stew was, and I was able to say I was informing them because i was making compost, not starving.



Seriously though, to anyone decrying chaining the yum bonus. by the time you get to 10 it is enormous. I was playing up my yum and went through like all my fertile years on one chain. Granted, i was wasting some time running for onions and whatnot.

But in a camp where people are doing jobs, there should be a lot of foods. These small foods like greenbeans, popcorn, mango slices, bread, or heaven forbid, eating a carrot, can create a great chain that leaves you way more productive.


I also don't get why people hate on bread so much. You almost always have extra piles of grain lying around. It's a convenient food for people to eat, helps with yum bonus etc. The math of it doesn't seem to be messed up to me, when you figure grain is usually a surplus item. Also when you figure the old and young and not wanting to wait til you're about to starve. I remain convinced people are dropping dead because they're scared of wasting a few pips, when food ISN'T SCARCE [well, of course it is in the economic sense, it isn't in the sense of there being a shortage]


I'm gonna play a few more games as a stewmaker and see if i can convince more people to eat stew. Even if dropping off bowls and saying "eat stew" doesn't seem to be enough.

I've realized this is also really worthwhile early game and everyone waits. these seeds are easy to collect, and for 6 soils and three tool usages you can get a bunch of food.

Also i'm going to start trying to force my kids to work in the berry fields, as opposed to letting them do whatever. Adults shouldn't have to do that job because it's a waste for people who can go farther from food, and my kids are always dropping dead of starvation, which there should be like no threat of in the berry field.



Anyway, we really, really need to be able to stack and carry mixed and matched bowls, and put them in carts. If it is the habit to be leaving stacks of food bowls near the berry fields etc Even three to a basket of full bowls would be better, though it would look goofy. It's also pretty ridiculous that we're running back to grab bowls of grain one by one, like wheat was never transported in woven baskets?

We really are wasting too much energy maintaining large berry fields, but they have to remain full for compost and sheep, and people eat way too much of them granted, i probably eat more of them than I should, but mostly only when i'm working on the field or it has a yum bonus. Still, if i've made a bunch of batches of compost and fetched water and moved bowls of soil and watered them etc i don't consider it a problem if I eat some of the berries.

A thing to remember here is Jason's intention was to create a system where we didn't just eat the same thing constantly, like in our carrot farming days etc. He did a pretty good job with the yum system and whatnot but there are two problems

1) Tons of people who play this game just are obsessed with numbers and efficiency. The idea was that eating a variety of food would make the game more realistic and less monotonous
2) More importantly, mutton pies need to stop being a necessary byproduct of survival. The obvious solution to this is that sheep produce dung when they go from sheered to wooly, instead of when lambs grow up. This also allows a vegetarian village that only keeps a couple of lambs for wool...we've all wanted cultures to vary more.


I'll tell you what I tell all my children: Make basket, always carry food.

Listen to your mom!

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#13 2019-02-13 18:46:48

BlueDiamondAvatar
Member
Registered: 2018-11-19
Posts: 322

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

I like to play carter - and if bowls of stew could go in carts I'd definitely share them around town.  It's really weird to me that some bowls can go in the cart but others can't.  I recently plastered a house and was super annoyed when I realized bowls of quicklime or plaster can't be carted.

There's a post on the OHOL suggestions subreddit asking Jason to add at least one more stacking item each week.  We need more cartable bowls of things, too.

Oh, another thing I've started doing.. force feeding people yum foods, then telling them what they just ate. If greifers can do it to destroy yum chains, I can do it to increase them. I usually do this with a bowl of greenbeans or popcorn.  I gave stew to one of my adult daughters recently, and she was really surprised by how many pips she got.  I think that made a convert to the benefits of stew.


--Blue Diamond

I aim to leave behind a world that is easier for people to live in that it was before I got there.

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#14 2019-02-13 20:05:07

LucidFugue
Member
Registered: 2019-02-13
Posts: 7

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

It's always nice to be in a village that has food variety sorted. Last night we had  a stew crop with extra corn for popcorn, wheat for compost and pies right next to the sheep pen, with the berries and carrots separated into their own farm in the corner. It was a really good design. I should have built a second well off to the side of the stew and wheat farms, but we had chronic bowl shortage and I wanted to build wooden boxes for the bakery so I spent a while carting and doing other things.

I also brought in a load of bananas and people were slowly getting through them. It's difficult to teach all this stuff to newbies. The tutorial is okay but there is a lot to take in and most players are going to be focused on trying to build or farm basic stuff.

I agree food isn't exactly scarce so resource inefficient foods aren't necessarily the worst thing if people take advantage of food variety. It is waaaay worse to be in a village with 20+ Berry plants that are all picked dry because of griefers or newbies not knowing how to do anything other than eat berries and use up all the soil and water expanding the patch.

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#15 2019-02-13 20:25:55

fragilityh14
Member
Registered: 2018-03-21
Posts: 556

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

BlueDiamondAvatar wrote:

I like to play carter - and if bowls of stew could go in carts I'd definitely share them around town.  It's really weird to me that some bowls can go in the cart but others can't.  I recently plastered a house and was super annoyed when I realized bowls of quicklime or plaster can't be carted.

There's a post on the OHOL suggestions subreddit asking Jason to add at least one more stacking item each week.  We need more cartable bowls of things, too.

Oh, another thing I've started doing.. force feeding people yum foods, then telling them what they just ate. If greifers can do it to destroy yum chains, I can do it to increase them. I usually do this with a bowl of greenbeans or popcorn.  I gave stew to one of my adult daughters recently, and she was really surprised by how many pips she got.  I think that made a convert to the benefits of stew.


Oh man, i should totally just go around feeding people, and mentioning yum. you're right it's unlikely any noob hanging out eating berries is going to be upset about it. Though, greenbeans are the only ones with enough in the bowl for that to be super practical (besides pies where much would surely be wasted), which comes back to our stacking issue.


I'll tell you what I tell all my children: Make basket, always carry food.

Listen to your mom!

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#16 2019-02-13 21:13:23

stew
Member
Registered: 2019-02-13
Posts: 47

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

I played a game today where I made the YUM go up by cooking all kind of stuff. As I cooked it I knew from every food so my yum went up to 15 or so. I knew at least the cook was YUM chaining to. However the problem comes when new player eat all the popcorn because.. yea if you are new, hungry and there is popcorn why not? right.

If we would have an advanced server, where not everyone is just EVE chaining, but just advanced players that will play in each others villages we could do big YUMs, could organize stuff and have tasks like YUM master

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#17 2019-02-13 22:29:21

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,520

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

Booklat1 wrote:

You dont HAVE TO choose between foods, its just more cost effective than not doing so, which people seem to greatly disregard in favor of a low reward yum bonus.


Yums helps the individuals that want to forget about eating for minutes and also helps females getting babies. And that is pretty much it.


betame did some math on yums and actually found that eating popcorn at the end of a mutton pie + berry +bowl of berries + bread + popcorn is better than eating just pie. But then again, stopping the chain at bread and starting it again is even better. A bite of popcorn takes 12 yum bonus to be as good as pie and at a higher cost. You don't offset this by adding the four wild foods as freebies to your yum value. In fact, you have to count on every single piece of popcorn being yumed in that manner for betame's math to even be true, which is just unlikely.


I swear, it's like you people are trying to convince me that you'd rather have 10 bucks with some spare change as a >bonus< than straight up having 50 bucks.


I've done lots of yum chaining, feels good to not eat for a while, but don't act like you are doing it for good resource management.

Your example doesn't feel realistic at all, and I suspect it contrived.  If you have popcorn, you almost surely have shucked corn around.  If you have mutton pie, you almost surely have carrots around (and you probably could have carrot pie also) also, or can rather soon.  Popcorn without stew is possible, but also probably rare, so I suspect having stew around also likely.  And perhaps multiple pie types also, though maybe you just won't cook those as you somehow said 'pie', which reduces eight different foods to one.  It would be more interesting to know from an actual colony with all of the foods around, or quickly cooked possibly also, then these abstract theoretical calculations.  I still suspect that yum chaining has more effectiveness for an actual settlement.


Danish Clinch.

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#18 2019-02-14 00:07:15

Booklat1
Member
Registered: 2018-07-21
Posts: 1,042

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

wait, betame, clear two somethings out for me will you? I'll answer the rest of you guys that quoted me later.

What source of water did you use for water cost calculation?
And how did you get to popcorn being viable at 4 yum? What I'm really asking is if your calculations assume all popcorn out of a planted corn is eaten at 4 yum for it to beat mutton pies. Or did you take a bite per bite approach? It just makes a lot of difference to have 4(4+Yum) and 3(4)+(4+Yum) when evaluating yum.

However I know that making popcorn will very likely cause people to at least yum up to 2/3 even the golden number of 4, but is that enough of a consistency for it to be worth it? (in case your calculations assume only one bite of popcorn being yummed out of a corn plant nd that already being enough to top pies this is all, of course, irrelevant)

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#19 2019-02-14 00:13:54

Booklat1
Member
Registered: 2018-07-21
Posts: 1,042

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

Oh, since i'm at it, which example were you talking about, spoonwood?

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#20 2019-02-14 00:23:15

Booklat1
Member
Registered: 2018-07-21
Posts: 1,042

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

stew wrote:

Lets say your YUM bonus is at 10 and you have to decide to either restart YUM bonus or eat some "bad food". lets say you eat 3 bad foods. that is 11+12+13 (total of 36) extra food in YUM bonus. That's a lot of extra food. Popcorn raw corn or green beans are not so good, but when it comes with a +11 extra food, it's super good.

You see why you are wrong? because like betame said, it takes carrots 17 yum to be worth it. 17, not 10, not 11, not 15.
Green beams, for 6 uses 0f 4 are yet worse than carrots at 7 uses of 5 for the same cost, which should put them at yet a higher need of yum for it to be worth it. Don't say something is good without actually comparing costs and value. And your example only takes into account eating foods, not producing them which is probably why you don't factor in costs (but they are there). There is no EXTRA FOOD when you waste soil, water and hoes by making shitty foods that need 17 yum to be worth it.

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#21 2019-02-14 00:56:51

betame
Member
Registered: 2018-08-04
Posts: 202

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

Booklat1 wrote:

wait, betame, clear two somethings out for me will you? I'll answer the rest of you guys that quoted me later.

What source of water did you use for water cost calculation?
And how did you get to popcorn being viable at 4 yum? What I'm really asking is if your calculations assume all popcorn out of a planted corn is eaten at 4 yum for it to beat mutton pies. Or did you take a bite per bite approach? It just makes a lot of difference to have 4(4+Yum) and 3(4)+(4+Yum) when evaluating yum.

However I know that making popcorn will very likely cause people to at least yum up to 2/3 even the golden number of 4, but is that enough of a consistency for it to be worth it? (in case your calculations assume only one bite of popcorn being yummed out of a corn plant nd that already being enough to top pies this is all, of course, irrelevant)

Yep, I'm assuming the best case scenario where each bite is used at the given yum

1 corn plant = 4 corn = 1 soil + 1 water + 1 till
1 popcorn = 1 corn (with time, and crafting)
1 popcorn = 4 bites of 3 pips per bite
each 3 pip bite of popcorn = 0.0625 soil + 0.0625 water + 0.0625 till = 0.1875 total resources per bite

mutton pie is 0.0310... total resources per pip
for popcorn to be <0.031 resources per pip, each bite must be 7 pips = 4yum+3pip per bite
(0.1875 total resources per bite with popcorn /.0310 total resources per pip with mutton pie = 6.04 pips per bite for corn to be equivalent to mutton pie)

Last edited by betame (2019-02-14 00:59:29)


Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info

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#22 2019-02-14 06:46:22

ryanb
Member
Registered: 2018-03-08
Posts: 217
Website

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

This is an interesting discussion. The fact that there are mixed thoughts on yum chaining makes me think that it is pretty well balanced.

I imagine the benefit of yum chaining starts high, dips in the middle, and ends high. Imagine you are on a 20+ yum chain. Even the forsaken baked potato looks good with counting as two food items in one. That’s 50+ food from one potato.

Whatever the math says, yum chaining is also a fun way to play. It rewards making a variety of foods while offering the challenge of seeing how high you can get it.


One Hour One Life Crafting Reference
https://onetech.info/

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#23 2019-02-14 08:14:43

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 3,932

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

No, I'd say the benefits of yum chaining start low when you are just getting a couple of extra pips, gets much better in the middle when you are chaining +10, then dip down toward the end as the time and effort required to find unique foods becomes too great. 

There are roughly forty unique foods in the game.  Eating wild foods can get you a short yum chain of five or six  Adding in easily cultivated domestic foods can extend your chain to ten or above.  Keeping a long yum chain (15+) can be pretty difficult, even in an established town.  The longer you try to chain yum, the more inefficient, resource-heavy and labor-intensive foods you will need to eat to keep it going.  Reaching 25+ yum bonus is not very common and, in many villages it is completely impossible. 

Foods like green beans and fresh corn and mango slices are very costly to produce.  And if they are eaten by someone who is not actively working to maintain a long yum chain, it is just wasteful.  If your goal is to feed a lot of people, mass-producing high efficiency foods, like meat pies and whole milk is a much smarter approach than spending the same amount of time producing a small yum station with a variety of expensive-to-produce, low-pip value snacks.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-02-14 20:26:42)

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#24 2019-02-14 16:13:10

Booklat1
Member
Registered: 2018-07-21
Posts: 1,042

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

Ty betame for clarifying that. This pretty much ends the discussion on efficiency for me. You need 16 people eating popcorn out of a single corn plant, everyone at 4 yum for it to be more effective than mutton. That's a very unlikely best case scenario (and they call my examples contrived). This, plus the data that carrots are only worth at 17 yums should make it pretty clear that from a producton aspect there is no reason to strive for high yums. Why grow green beams and corn for eating when you can make stew and milk? These are good at very low yum, even good at no yum. Why heavily micromanage when it gives you no advantage whatsoever? How do you even yum to 10 or 15 without eating carrots, corn, beams? These aren't even good unles you and other people are at very high yums so it makes no sense to use these to increase yum in the first place.


I agree with Destiny and disagree with ryanb. The fact these people in this thread like yum is because no one bothered to do some math on it. If they did fragility wouldn't claim a popcorn is 1/10 of a corn plant (its actually 1/16). But fragility isn't all wrong, nor are the people saying we can allow some other foods because food isn't hard to come by. That is true, you can make so much food with berries and pies alone that it doesn't really matter if people grow less optimal stuff for personal reasons.

Grim's example was, in fact, the best single argument in favour of yum in this thread, it IS terribly good to have high yum while on horseback. I assume it can also help smithies working on a fast pace. I did in fact say before that I appreciate not having to eat for a while, but is that worth yumming with bad foods?

Honestly, unless someone in this thread can prove me that you are not wasting resources by doing high yums I'll have my thoughts unchanged, yum isn't optimizing resources (which is my one and only point here). Just don't tell me its worth growing crops for eating single or few bites of popcorn, carrot and beams at an insuficiently high yum.


I'll end this comment quoting fragility "Seriously though, to anyone decrying chaining the yum bonus. by the time you get to 10 it is enormous. I was playing up my yum and went through like all my fertile years on one chain. Granted, i was wasting some time running for onions and whatnot."
At 10 yum you had to waste time looking for wildfoods intead of reseting it. It takes 17 yum for carrots to be efficient and even more for corn and beams. Do you see the mistake in your way of thinking? When you eat this stuff you waste crops someone planted, when you plant these for eating raw you waste soil/water/iron, and for a minimal flashy bonus. It is not worth it resource wise, it's not optimizing.

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#25 2019-02-14 19:43:38

fragilityh14
Member
Registered: 2018-03-21
Posts: 556

Re: Food delivery as job/stacking bowls

as always, everyone is undervaluing time and labor, and also, just trying to enjoy the game. The idea is definitely not that we eat the same thing all the time and have no food variety.

The bonus and having to eat less frequently are worthwhile. Also, at least some of us don't want to wait til we're at a couple of pips to eat. I remain convinced this is why so many people die of starvation with so much food around.


The real problem here, though, is that nothing can be compared to mutton pie because it's a necessary byproduct of making compost, so if you have soil and are staying alive, you have mutton and wheat. The solutions to this would either be A) make poop come from sheered sheep [which creates a similar problem with the scarcity of wool, in that it is now a byproduct you have a bunch of] or B) multiple ways to make compost.

also i thought there were 5 corn per corn plant, and 2 bites of popcorn per bowl, i'm not one to be obsessed with doing the math in this game, and I'm also not sure how one calculates the value of eating a carrot compared to its value for compost or mutton pie. It only takes two carrots to get like 21 soil. It's hardly going to kill a civ if some of them are eaten instead of using for that purpose.

The problem is most definitely people who accomplish nothing in their lives and griefers, not the dietary choices of people who eat diverse foods. One productive player seriously produces a bunch of food in a lifetime, if they are devoting themselves to that.


I'll tell you what I tell all my children: Make basket, always carry food.

Listen to your mom!

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