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#1 2019-01-25 06:57:37

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 234

Soil efficiency page created

Hey just wanted to make people aware of the reference I made:

https://onehouronelife.gamepedia.com/Food_Efficency

It details the various conversion ratios of soil to food for each applicable food type. Foods with better ratios require less soil and consequently less composting. Keep in mind that this is independent of the recipe's complexity and crafting depth, yum bonus, other considerations, etc. It's just a reference, but it might give you a good idea, for example, if your village only has 1 or 2 wells then maybe mangoes or pork tacos aren't the best thing to cultivate, since they have a bad water ratio. On the other hand if you have lots of water but your compost cycle isn't stable then you could set up a cow and get basically free food from it's whole milk, just putting in a fair bit of water and some time-sensitive crafting.

Someone suggested calculating food to iron consumption from tools, but that would require probability, which I hate calculating.

Let me know what you think.

~NTP

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#2 2019-01-25 11:46:16

betame
Member
Registered: 2018-08-04
Posts: 202

Re: Soil efficiency page created

Neat, thanks for adding to the food discussion!

I'd attempted going through the math before, and got mostly the same results.
See Food per Iron edit: now includes current food production spreadsheet


I'm never certain of my results until they're peer-reviewed; let's discuss the differences we got:

I calculate carrots with their seeds by looking at 7 plots where one plot always goes to seed (in practice, seeds get wasted sometimes, but that's not a story for these numbers to tell):
8 soil + 7 water + 7 till = 7 food per carrot * 5 carrots per plot * 6 carrot plots + [0 carrots from the seed plot]


I also got slightly different results for kraut (45) and stew (91.4 food per soil, including hardened rows)

growing 3 cabbage takes 4 plots:
4 soil + 4 water + 4 till = [4 seeds] + 3 cabbage --> 180 kraut food

stew takes 6 beans, 1 corn, and a squash + a water bowl.
1 soil + 1 water + 1 till = 4 corn
6 soil + 6 water + 6 till = 5 bowls of 6 beans each
1 soil + 1 water + 1 till = 1 squash
2.45 soil + 3.45 water + 2.45 till + axe = 1 stew --> 224 food


my results:

food.        per soil.     per water
Berry	        35.000	35.000
Mango	        48.000	14.400
D. Corn	        20.000	20.000
Popcorn	        48.000	48.000
D. Omelette	76.000	76.000
D. Goose        80.000	80.000
Wh. Milk.      560.000   560.000
Stew	        91.429	64.928
Krout	        45.000	45.000
Carrot	        26.250	30.000
Green beans	20.000	20.000
Potato	        24.000	48.000
Mutton	        42.712	44.017
carrot pie	36.522	38.182
berry carrot pie48.046	49.363
Berry Pie	35.368	35.368
Bread or dough	32.000	32.000
Mutton Pie	76.829	77.658
bean burritos	27.143	21.923

Last edited by betame (2019-02-04 15:20:53)


Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info

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#3 2019-01-25 13:41:39

Booklat1
Member
Registered: 2018-07-21
Posts: 1,042

Re: Soil efficiency page created

Not soil math but i've had this for some days:

I ran few calculation on the costs of water from each of the pumps.
It's currently 1 coal for 2 water for newcomen, 11.5 water per coal in kerosene and 20.5 in diesel. Since each coal is kindling + axe use we can also translate these results in axe efficiency. I was mostly calculating how much water must you produce before each upgrade is worth it, but I think these results also help making food calculations more up to date.


I'm talkig about water buckets, obviously.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-01-25 13:45:55)

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#4 2019-01-25 14:28:33

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,267

Re: Soil efficiency page created

that's 3 water per charcoal as you put one back
plus one initial for fire, no need a fire made every time


https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7986 livestock pens 4.0
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4411 maxi guide

Playing OHOL optimally is like cosplaying a cactus: stand still and don't waste the water.

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#5 2019-01-25 14:49:47

betame
Member
Registered: 2018-08-04
Posts: 202

Re: Soil efficiency page created

I got your results, Booklat1. Assuming there's always a source for the fire brand.

Last edited by betame (2019-01-25 14:50:47)


Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info

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#6 2019-01-25 14:52:15

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 3,939

Re: Soil efficiency page created

I've been thinking about food efficiency a lot lately.   I've drawn a few conclusions based on the data.

Some of the WORST (least efficient/most costly) foods to eat are:  Fresh ear of corn, baked potato, popcorn, green beans, sauerkraut, sliced bread, bean tacos, mangoes, carrots, gooseberries, and any pie that contains berries.    These foods cost a lot to produce and don't provide very many pips if consumed.   Carrots and berries are necessary for the compost cycle, so they should be grown in every village ... BUT once you have sheep, you should avoid eating them when you have better options available.    Potatoes and cabbage require special tools and iron to produce edible food products AND they are costly in soil/water.   Don't farm these crops, unless you've run out of useful things to do with your time and you are making extra foods for yum bonus only.    Fresh corn and fresh beans are worthless compared with processing these crops into higher pip-value alternatives.  Again, only produce/consume these fresh products if you are have no other option or if you want to extend your yum bonus.   Adding berries to a pie does not add enough additional benefit to be worth the cost of an entire bowl of berries.    Meat pies are way better.   Adding carrot to a rabbit pie makes the best available food, but at the cost of more water/soil, so regular rabbit pie is the best pie when you are aiming to maximize food production efficiency.    Bread is a bad investment, if you have meat and plates available - it would be better to make pies with your wheat.   And buttered bread is not good enough to make up the difference between skim milk vs whole milk, so if you have the ability to make butter, you shouldn't bother (except if the milk separates by accident or if you wish to provide a new food item for yum bonus chains). 

The best foods are meat pies (mutton or rabbit) and whole milk, no debate needed.    These foods produce MUCH more food for the same amount of water/dirt and don't take that much more labor or time to produce.   You can get a pretty accurate assessment of a village's food supply just by looking at the current supply of pies and available pie-making ingredients.   More established towns can bump up their food efficiency by switching over to whole milk, but this requires someone with knowledge of dairy farming and a surplus of buckets for storing whole milk.   Due to time-sensitive harvesting, you can lose some of the advantages of milk, if you let the milk separate into cream and skim milk.   Although, even with skim milk (and butter), milk is a better return on investment than any other food item.  Definitely the best available use for corn.

Bottom line ... if you are worried about the village starving to death during your lifetime, make meat pies and teach your kids how to make more meat pies.   Make sure that your village has always has pies and the ability to make even more pies.  And if you are in an established town and want to add to the available food variety, consider becoming a dairy farmer.   Just please .. make a separate pen for the cow.   Your village shepherd will thank you for the courtesy.

Also, don't be a berry locust.   The cost of a huge berry farm in terms of water/dirt consumption is quite significant.   It is much more reasonable to feed the entire village (even elders and babies) using meat pies, then trying to do the same thing with nothing but berries.  Eventually, the berry patch will get too large and need too much soil/water/labor to maintain.  If too many berries are being eaten by hungry people, rather than being fed back into the composting cycle,  the dirt will run out and the wells will run dry and the berry bushes will be empty.    Then the new players will starve in droves and the town population will plummet to critical levels.   Even if the majority of the experienced players survive the food crisis, the lineage might not.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-01-25 15:02:59)

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#7 2019-01-25 15:24:12

Booklat1
Member
Registered: 2018-07-21
Posts: 1,042

Re: Soil efficiency page created

pein wrote:

that's 3 water per charcoal as you put one back
plus one initial for fire, no need a fire made every time

1 coal + 1 water = 3 water is the same as 1 coal = 2 water in this case since i'm calculating the efficiency of each cycle. Definitely don't make a fire each time though.


And betame, yes I mostly like to calculate these in optimal scenarios before I get into more realistic ones. But since fires and kindling are rather cheap I don't think you'll find your firebrands unlit all that often.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-01-25 15:26:21)

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#8 2019-01-25 16:55:11

CrazyEddie
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 676

Re: Soil efficiency page created

The health of a town can be instantly appraised by looking at:

a) how brown is the berry farm, and
b) is there a lit large slow fire

Green bushes and a lit fire means at least one or two people know what they're doing. Brown bushes and no fire means the town is entirely filled with incompetent players and will soon die.

Everything else is a matter of degree. Got tools? Pen? Baskets? Carts? Rope? Milkweed farms? Surplus of pies? Buildings? Maybe yes, maybe no. If not, that just means the good players haven't gotten around to making them yet. But if the bushes are brown and the fire is out it means there are no good players.

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#9 2019-01-25 20:32:14

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 3,939

Re: Soil efficiency page created

There are a few missing food items -  bean burritos and bowl of green beans.

Also, the math for stew looks off to me.   I'm coming up with soil/water efficiency of 2.45 and 3.45, assuming hardened rows for all ingredients (corn = 0.25, beans = 1.2, squash = 1, +1 water for crockpot).  Each squash gives one seed, so no losses related to re-seeding.



Cabbage, however, does require re-seeding, similar to carrots.  So those numbers should be adjusted to account for one "seed row" for every three productive rows.  This brings down the food efficiency a little, due to additional soil/water use.

Speaking of seeding, the math for carrots depends on planting method.  If you let carrots go to seed, you get between 1 and 7 seeds, depending on the number of carrots left in the row  (1 seed per carrot up to 4, then 7 seeds for a full row of five carrots).  However, the seeded row will not leaves behind a hardened row, so you effectively "lose" one dirt every time you allow carrots to seed out.  This means following the advice to "leave one carrot in each row for seeds" is one of the worst way to grow carrots efficiently.  It is much better to let one whole row seed out, then replant into six hardened rows and one fresh row.  It cuts down soil consumption by almost half.

Another food that could be added to this list is turkey broth (and sliced turkey).  The broth has a modest water cost for decent food return and no soil cost.

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#10 2019-01-25 21:02:26

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 3,939

Re: Soil efficiency page created

CrazyEddie wrote:

The health of a town can be instantly appraised by looking at:

a) how brown is the berry farm, and
b) is there a lit large slow fire

Green bushes and a lit fire means at least one or two people know what they're doing. Brown bushes and no fire means the town is entirely filled with incompetent players and will soon die.

Everything else is a matter of degree. Got tools? Pen? Baskets? Carts? Rope? Milkweed farms? Surplus of pies? Buildings? Maybe yes, maybe no. If not, that just means the good players haven't gotten around to making them yet. But if the bushes are brown and the fire is out it means there are no good players.

Reading this reminded me of a town I was born into last night.  It was a big old town, obviously been around a long time.  As I was waiting for my hair to grow, a village elder walked up to me and warned me that if this village didn't change its ways, we were doomed.   He didn't explain what was wrong and died before I could ask, so when I was old enough, I went to look for myself.  Large sheep pen, big berry farm, two radios, a mostly finished bell tower, couple of buildings, a wide selection of food items (tacos, pies, stew, etc).  At first glance, it looked okay ... but then I went looking for the wheat farm.   There wasn't one.   

There were a few piles of wheat grain, here and there.  A couple mature compost piles.  But no growing wheat.   I looked for the carrot farm.  Same deal.   About a dozen carrots on the ground, but no one actively farming more carrots.   I started gathering some of the last dirt to grow wheat, while the berries started to turn brown.   A little while later, my wheat was growing nicely, so I went to gather a few bowls of berries and carrots before they were all gone.   We had plenty of sheep dung, but no new compost piles because of the straw shortage.

I made a few piles and was feeling pretty good.   I transferred dung to the first compost pile ... and the shovel immediately broke!   I went to the smithy.   No active smith.  No iron.  Shit ...

I searched around town in case there was another shovel.  There wasn't one.   Fortunately, a hoe broke while I was hunting and I combined it with the broken shovel to get one piece of precious iron.   I headed back to the forge and fired it up.  I got as far as making a file blank ... and the smithing hammer broke.  So much for my one and only piece of iron.   Still no shovel and only one pile of active compost in the whole town.  The berries were looking quite unhappy at this point, pie production was stalling out a bit, but not completely stopped. 

There was no other choice, so I grabbed a horse cart and left town in search of iron.  Returned in time to see a young kid running around with a shovel, yelling that he saved the town.   I dropped off eight pieces of iron at the smithy and went back to my wheat farm.  It was at about this point that someone pried out a piece of our sheep pen, because she wanted to add a block to one of our half finished bell towers (one of them was ready for a gold bell, the other was stable, but needed another two blocks.)   Of course, this realeased all of our sheep.  I managed to make a new block and fix the gap before I died.  I spent the remaining few minutes of my life killing stray sheep.

I was in the 55th generation.  I hope it is still going, but that was a rough run.

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#11 2019-01-25 22:57:08

CrazyEddie
Member
Registered: 2018-11-12
Posts: 676

Re: Soil efficiency page created

DestinyCall wrote:

This means following the advice to "leave one carrot in each row for seeds" is one of the worst way to grow carrots efficiently.

I see this happen from time to time, and it drives me nuts. I assume it happens because someone has heard the advice/instructions "LEAVE ONE FOR SEEDS" and thought it meant "one carrot" rather than "one row of carrots".

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#12 2019-01-26 01:05:20

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 234

Re: Soil efficiency page created

DestinyCall wrote:

Each squash gives one seed, so no losses related to re-seeding.

https://edge.onetech.info/1201-Plate-of … st-chopped

It's true! I'll update the page to reflect this, I thought there was a seeding cost. I'll also make a section to show my work, since there seem to be some errors or points of contention at the least.

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#13 2019-01-26 09:29:41

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,267

Re: Soil efficiency page created

Booklat1 wrote:
pein wrote:

that's 3 water per charcoal as you put one back
plus one initial for fire, no need a fire made every time

1 coal + 1 water = 3 water is the same as 1 coal = 2 water in this case since i'm calculating the efficiency of each cycle. Definitely don't make a fire each time though.


And betame, yes I mostly like to calculate these in optimal scenarios before I get into more realistic ones. But since fires and kindling are rather cheap I don't think you'll find your firebrands unlit all that often.

i swear it was 4 buckets in it, and i remember from game too, that i made 3 charcoal to fill the cistern, weird

initial cost can vary

for example when i do cow pens:
9 adobe, 8 berry bushes, 1x1 pen surrounded by bushes and diagonal walls and middle ones
can work with 7 stones too but i like the look ,also adobe pillars can be painted with milk
rope, 2 corn, 2 arrow, bow
take calf to tiny biome, let it loose, feed, take the first cow, put on middle, feed
take it to cow pen
now it needs 11 buckets only for that, which is better not be used for water, stanchion kits, rubber
1 corn and a bucket of water can make 11 buckets of milk with 9 uses

you take out one bowl of water from a full bucket, take it near the cow pen
feed it corn, wait until the calf dies and on 1x1 despawns, now you can milk it, and someone else gives a bowl of water right away
you take out one bowl of milk and put into other bucket
1x9 +1x1
2x9 +1x2
3x9 + 1x3
... + ...
9x9 + 1x9
now you got an empty water bucket after the 9th bucket
which you can use to get the 10th bucket of milk
total 11 buckets of 9, drink the last bowl
also means its handy to have more bowls
you can leave one or two go to skim, but it's a net loss, even with skim milk and buttered bread, also a lot of wasted bowls on butter


needs fast hands or wont work, when i tried to teach kids, we never got more than 3 buckets, as you need to give water to cow in 3 seconds (not sure if its side effect of small pen, but if you make a big one they make 20 cows which has no use, bison in a small biome wont go far and produces cows which can be killed for piss
if you got bigger than 1x1 pen, someone will fuck up and make multiple cows which has no benefit at all
so ideally you have all buckets there, you handle buckets, ask a kid to give water to cow, one person can even take out one bowl of milk and put the partial whole milk bucket to the box to avoid confusion
or you can have 9 bowls of water, and one empty
each time you give one to cow, keep one filled with milk as a counter

sauerkraut is pretty good if you got a closeby ice hole, especially not on a cold biome, small bites, multiple bites, only downside is 3 iron to make, salt occupies bowls (but can keep up ashes for paper and cooked beans for burritos)

wheat field should always be same size as the inner size of pen
that ensures you always can make enough compost and a few baskets
carrot should be planted around a grave so you can teleport it by moving the stone, also 8 tiles of carrot is enough, 7 seeds and one extra to next cycle, its much better to water 2 at a time and place it further from main city so noobs don't eat it
you can also use toddlerport, especially as a male, a kid between 3.5-5 minute old picks it and u pick him up, the carrot flies to next available free tile
each straw hat and basket creates excess wheat which means you need 1 bread for one hat and two breads for a basket
this makes bread the main food choice for me, as you need a big pen and a lot of plates, 5x5 is fine pen size, and 24 plates for piesi is enough to keep those jobs up
if you pick every single bush down to bowls, they can still eat with left click or right click, and you can put soil once again on it, you are one step ahead of berry famine and helps composters
we were doing fine with 21 bushes the other day, even 18 is enough if you pick it off and fix in two minutes, any size of population, if the bushes are on wait mode, they gonna eat something else, you need to push berry eating below 50% at least

a compost is like 9 times profit on soil invested, that's huge, the excess is used for berries only and nobody does anything
the next step would be baskets, milkweed to use up the profit and use up each dung on each straw

pen size and plates kick in on the second refill, you can only have that much pies and that much space to store it
as i said not that good to go too big, as you make 4 boxes full of baskets, with pies in it and nobody does anything, and people get bored
bread is 4x more efficient on plates and cleans up wheat faster
burritos are 6x more efficient on plates so cooking a few beans near paper and sauerkraut is also good
best setup is 7 flat rocks, 6 dough bowls, put the first of each bowl on a rock, that prevents to turn into bread
the 7th flat rock to ashes, 6 bowls make 4 plates with 6 tortilla and 4 bowls of cooked beans uses 4 bean tiles, plus the seed


do everything en mass and have a good, separated setup
you can use a cart for berry bowls, even two, one for compost one for sheep food
one cart with baskets to carry soil and charcoal
one cart with buckets to carry water and rubber, milk
if upgraded, even better, same thing for bowl of threshed wheat, once you did the compost you can pick it up with same bowls and take to oven

this means you can cook half of rabbits on skewers after you got sheep
and cook half of mutton , eventually you wont have storage anyway

after you upgrade into newcommen well, you can plant mangoes
max 7 trees, i don't see any point having more than that, also i rather see one in each corner than 10 in same spot
7 trees uses one compost and 7 buckets of water, and tons of plates
now this uses up 6 threshed wheat with only 4 plates (4 plates of bread instead 16 pies for bread), not 24 as pies, also you can take of bread and burrito to ground or restack burritos (not the bread tho)

a good cowpen setup
nPa49j3.png
until the trees grow out they wont block the cow, so just smash some adobe behind them(red arrows) to block cow, water it after they grown
if you worried about boxes, just put carwheels on them

goose is quite good on paper, i knew it but if this includes fed goose with corn and its still better than omelette, than quite good strategy to use the eggs for each dung, rather than fill plates, also they are 2 bite food
my main concern is that you need 2 stumps to decap them (1 too slow animation if you got a cart of gooses, so when you kill one, you can kill the other, then the animation ends and can go with the 3rd on first stump, 4th with second stump, etc)
stumps will despawn in one hour or someone will block south side for religious purposes

havent tried but shouldwork: find 2 trees 2 tiles distance NS direction
cut them, make the pen like this:
gKo5RnT.png
or just separate stumps and adobe, still needs water but wont open the pen each time
don't feed them corn, i don't think its worth it, get wild eggs, put in each dung and carry goose to the pen/use a cart if needed, when its full pen, you need to kill them and cook on skewers
when you cut their neck, remove the 2 tiles under the trees with bowls of water, keep it empty, use a small biome so they wont go far(would work without pen but the kids carry gooses around, also would work with boxes but i wouldn't keep axe and boxes at same place), when you do the last 2 goose, put it back, that will block the goose for eternety on stump, and the stump wont despawn either, not sure what happens when you remove adobe again, if it deletes the stump its bad
the other option is to plant 2 pines or more each hour and cut it for firewood, use the stumps to kill the goose, and plant new ones
each dung can be used as incubator once only but you can still use them for compost

i will test door or just gravestones under stump, then no water needed

Last edited by pein (2019-01-26 09:42:32)


https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7986 livestock pens 4.0
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4411 maxi guide

Playing OHOL optimally is like cosplaying a cactus: stand still and don't waste the water.

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