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#1 Re: Main Forum » Griefer Steals Tools and Cant kill Him? » 2020-04-28 21:20:13

jasonrohrer wrote:

It's either hard to kill people, or easy to kill people.

You want it to be hard for griefers to kill people, but easy for good people to kill people.

You can't have it both ways.

Just make it so you can only attack one person per life.  Towns can then deal with griefers but griefers can't be serial killers.  Way easier to understand than the posse system.  If you want to make it thematic you could make it so after you kill someone you forget how to use weapons and can't learn them again (post traumatic stress from attacking someone.)

#2 Main Forum » Suggestion: Fixing Bears » 2020-04-24 20:33:09

Replies: 19

Currently, bears solely exist as a tool for griefers.  And they function very well in this role.  They auto target anyone they see, are very hard to kill, and they target people from off-screen.

First, why bears are good tools for griefers:
Bears caves are everywhere, it takes just a few minutes to build a large bear entourage.  Bears auto target anyone they see.  Bears kill in a single action, but it takes three actions to kill a bear.  Bears can target people from offscreen.  There isn't a good way to counter bear griefing.  If the town stockpiles bows and arrows, the griefer will hide the arrows and turn the bows into hatchets before he leads the bears into town.  If the town builds safe-houses with food, the griefer will remove the food from the safe-house before leading bears into town.  If the town builds walls, the griefer blocks the exits.  If there's lots of exits, the griefer will lead the bears through one of them (its a lot easier to get bears into a walled off town then out.  On the way in, you are the only person around so bears follow you.  Once they are through the fence, there's a lot of people around so their movement is chaotic.  Now your walls to protect you from bears are a cage trapping you in with the bears.  Finally, its hard to curse bear griefers.  A bear griefer just needs to lead the bears to the outskirts of town and after than can run away.  The bears will do all the work for them.  Because of the limited FOV in the game and the very small time window where the griefer has to be near the town, it is difficult to curse them.  I checked this out in the logs.  Looking at account hashes that awakened bears without killing them.  Of the 5 players who woke the most bears, only one of them had any curses.  One account woke over 60 bears in a single day without receiving any curses.

Third, why empowering griefers is a problem in this game:
Jason wants the game to have tension.  In order to achieve that tension, he needs a careful balance of the ability to survive.  If conditions are too harsh, towns just die off without creating tension.  If conditions are too easy, there is no tension.  Griefers seek to completely destroy the balance.  Because griefing is somewhat infrequent, that means either conditions have to normally be too easy with no tension for towns to survive griefers, or conditions can be tough but griefers are able to easily destroy everything.  An example showing the very extreme of this arose with the food changes and well tapout grief.  Jason reduced the value of food on the server to see how that would affect tension.  At the same time someone orchestrated a massive grief making it very difficult for towns to get enough water to grow crops.  That means any data Jason collected around the food change is completely useless.  That is a rare example showcasing an extreme of the issue, but griefers contribute to this effect on a small scale all the time.  If the effect is small enough, its possible to maintain the balance. The more empowered griefers are, the more they break the balance and ruin the tension.  To illustrate the power of bear griefing, think back to before the posse changes.  Griefer serial killers would run around trying to kill off as many people as they could but they very rarely actually took out an entire town.  Most of the recent families who managed to transition to the newcomen pump are dying out because of a bear griefer.  Bear griefing is incredibly powerful and it is impossible to balance the game around.

**If there were no griefers in this game, there would be no bears in this game.  Bears currently exist solely for griefers.**

Now, with that said, how can bears be fixed?
Make it so bears spawn on their own without being poked.  Make it so each bear cave has a probability to spawn a bear.  To keep the server from getting inundated with bears over time, make bears die of natural causes over time.  An example with numbers to illustrate how to balance this: caves on average spawn a bear once every 24 hours and bears die after two hours.  This makes it so bears are a threat villages have to deal with on their own without griefer intervention.  This threat is regular allowing for the danger to be balanced creating tension.  It also significantly weakens bear griefing because a griefer only has access to one bear for every twelve caves.

#3 Re: Main Forum » 33 Babies DURING A FAMINE?!?! » 2020-04-24 19:06:37

pein wrote:

-Useless white people got no specialty but hoard every horse and every valuable resource.

White people have the language specialty.  I think it's supposed to push them into trading, but it ends up not actually helping because they can't make any tradeable goods.

It'd be neat if white people's specialty was expanded to push them more into trading.  Some light changes:
- increase their walk speed a bit
- make wild foods have a special bonus for them. 

Even cooler would be if their specialty pushed them into being nomadic traders:
- unable to interact with wells or iron mines (to keep them from settling down)
- no decrease in food value over time
- hunger decreases slower (to allow them to subsist on less food since they can't really produce food)
- can have bbs anywhere
- home arrow default points to your leader (to allow them to move in trade caravans)
- bbs can walk at birth (families constantly on the move, can't stop every thirty seconds cause you're popping out bbs)
- breastfeeding doesn't cost pips (since they will have to be carrying things they can't continuously hold their bbs)
- immune to hogs, wolves, and bears (vanilla client doesn't give you enough warning before you get killed by these.  It works well for normal lives since you can stay out of dangerous biomes, but nomadic traders will have to spend much larger portions of their lives traversing these.)

#4 Re: Main Forum » Food rebalance efficiency » 2020-04-20 16:34:07

Skim Milk is now better than whole milk.  If you make skim milk and 8 slices of buttered bread you get (10*3=30) + (8*12=96) for a total of 126 pips.  If you make make whole milk and 8 slices of plain bread you get (10*5=50) + (8*6=48) for a total of 98 pips.

#5 Re: Main Forum » In this video... » 2020-04-18 07:31:30

Guards don't work.  You need a posse too kill.

#6 Re: Main Forum » LOTS OF BBS OUTSIDE OF HOME!!! » 2020-04-18 02:20:14

I think you can insta lose your homeland if someone upgrades your well.  If that were to happen the only fertile females would be the ones who are outside the homeland and were sick when they left.  They would then proceed to spew out bbs until someone makes a new homeland.  It's a weird edge case and probably not worth fixing.  Might be what happened thought.

#7 Re: Main Forum » A way to deal with griefers » 2020-04-17 22:23:01

Spoonwood, there's a better way to deal with griefers.  Find out how they're exploiting the game, and tell Jason about it.  If you do, then Jason will probably fix it.  If we just tell him to fix griefers obviously there's nothing he can do.

#8 Re: Main Forum » Well Tessellation is a form of protest. » 2020-04-17 22:05:24

Morti wrote:

Jason is an easy fool, he doesn't even know his own world well enough anymore.

Morti wrote:

Or has it just become pitting people against each other, for your own, petty, personal, amusement?

Morti, Maybe what's happening is Jason is trying to develop a great game and when he comes to the forum to get feedback he just sees a bunch of personal insults.  Comment on the content, not the creator.  If you don't like X, give reasons why you don't like X.  If you say "I don't like X, Jason created it because he's [insert insult here]" he's obviously not going to listen to your feedback.  I've read your posts, Morti, I've seen what you've built in world.  it's clear that you really love this game.  Now think about the fact that this has been Jason's primary focus for years.  He clearly loves this game, too.  If you look at his recent changes, he's reworking core systems of the game.  He's not some end of cycle dev just throwing in some new hats before he halts development.  He is actively trying to rebalance the game.  This is a huge opportunity for us as a community.  If we can come together now to give Jason respectful feedback about how the game world is playing out he'll be able to fix things much faster.

#9 Re: Main Forum » Well Tessellation is a form of protest. » 2020-04-17 21:02:13

Lol, it's hilarious that Bobo released his amateur-hour griefing video while this was going on.  Its like a OHOL Mozart/Salieri showing genius vs incompetence.

#10 Re: Main Forum » I am pissed off. » 2020-04-17 20:34:48

The Eve towns all get flooded with bbs because the towns are dying off since they can't get any iron and can't upgrade the shallow well to a deep well.  Some Eves travel really far to find a natural spring and set up shop.  Those towns can get iron and upgrade to deep well, but need multiple races to get to newcomen stage, so those towns are dying off when they can't sustain the rubber requirements because too many towns are dying off. Also, since there are so many Eve towns with dry shallow wells all of the natural food is getting eaten. Its a cascading failure caused by the well grief.

#11 Re: Main Forum » I am pissed off. » 2020-04-17 20:03:27

This thread was about a specific issue caused by a clever grief.  Jason has submitted the fix so it won't happen again.  When the server resets for the update, the world will be fixed.  Jason did a great job fixing this quickly.

People act towards you as you act towards them.  If you keep antagonizing Jason, he'll antagonize you back.  You become the cause of the problem you are complaining about.  He created a very original game that we all love.  Stop throwing shade at him.

#12 Re: Main Forum » I am pissed off. » 2020-04-17 18:47:57

It's an effort/reward thing.  Instead of blocking off the mines, you could just block off the well spots directly.  But to cover the same amount of ground as the well tapout exploit you would need to block off 25x as many wells.  The community has tried to block off nosaj's in the past and it didn't work.  I've seen walled off tarry spots so people have tried it, but it didn't really seem to do anything.

#13 Re: Main Forum » A way to deal with griefers » 2020-04-17 18:37:27

You can identify some griefers hashes from the logs.  I was looking for who was doing all of the bear griefing and found a couple hashes that released a bunch of bears yesterday without shooting any bears.  The biggest bear griefer released 60 bears yesterday without shooting any.

#14 Re: Main Forum » I am pissed off. » 2020-04-17 17:56:10

Allowing the wells to generate Iron if they become a primary homeland would solve some of the problem, but a griefer could try to set most of the wells up in bad locations without nearby iron spawns.  Finding these abandoned wells as an Eve is pretty difficult, especially if you have to scout each one to check if it has nearby iron veins, whereas the griefer is presumably on a horse cart and check it much faster.  If that's an easy fix it could slow the problem down.  Another quick fix would be to reduce the tapout radius.  Because tapout radius is squared, dropping it down to 80 would make it require 6 times as many wells to cover the same area.

A long term fix if you want to keep it similar to current tapout radius would be to remove tapout radius and make it so you can't build wells in current homelands.  An hour after the griefer builds the well, no bb is born in that wells homeland and the land becomes fertile again for eves.  You could get into situations where a town has more than one well, but you won't be able to build a second well to stave off a water shortage.

#15 Re: Main Forum » I am pissed off. » 2020-04-17 17:28:29

Someone griefed the server and made it nearly unplayable for Eve towns.  Since Eve towns can't get set up, none of the towns are getting enough rubber to progress and dying off leading to more Eve towns that can't get set up.  I emailed Jason about it with more details.  Hopefully he takes a look.

#16 Re: Main Forum » In this video... » 2020-04-17 17:14:38

Easy fix, once you kill someone it no longer takes a posse to kill you and you can't be healed if killed.  Boom, problem solved.  Why go through all the effort to meet up in a town if you'll only get to kill a couple players?  Besides murderers are the least of our problems.  Bobo took out a single town using a gang of three people?  Meanwhile there were significantly worse griefs happening yesterday that I don't want to mention  where Bobo reads lest he actually learns how to grief effectively.

#17 Re: Main Forum » LOTS OF BBS OUTSIDE OF HOME!!! » 2020-04-15 21:55:25

It looks like server only sets everHomesick when transitioning homelands when the player isn't biome sick.  If that's the case, then the player could leave their homeland while biome sick and as long as they never enter another homeland they still will have everHomesick==false.  If they subsequently lose their homeland they can have bbs as nomads (since they no longer have a homeland and they never set everHomesick to true.)

I might be wrong, I haven't tested anything, just a cursory glance at the code...

#18 Re: Main Forum » Constantly Starving is Bad Game Design » 2020-04-15 20:19:44

DestinyCall wrote:

So you are saying we need milk bottles?

Water pouches fit in backpacks.  It would be great if we could fill them with edible liquids too.  Milk pouch, broth pouch, stew pouch.  It'd extend the usefulness of rabbit furs after your town has enough backpacks.

#19 Re: Main Forum » Why do we have so many children? » 2020-04-14 18:51:12

I was an Eve yesterday and it was crazy trying to keep up with all of the babies.  By the time I found a non-dry well site I already had ~22 dead children and was almost infertile.  What about after an Eve has surpassed some threshold, like 3 babies born overriding cooldown, the next baby would be born as a 14 year old girl.  That would take some of the pressure off of the Eve being the only fertile female of her race.  The issue also comes up for the last fertile female of a family.  Maybe if there are <3 fertile females a baby has a 50% chance of being born as a 14 year old girl.

#20 Re: Main Forum » Constantly Starving is Bad Game Design » 2020-04-14 17:54:16

jasonrohrer wrote:

Anyway, I've lived a few lives myself where we were ALMOST out of water in an advanced village.  It was tense and exciting, and a few of us banded together to save the day at the last minute by fetching a cart of buckets from a distant pond, to buy us more time for making the next rubber gasket.

Restricting water isn't a great strategy for making the game fun.  The issue is that it's a problem solved by a small number of people.  A single trader bringing back rubber.  A few people with a cart full of buckets getting water from ponds.  Once the town has water again it's business as usual.

The other problem with water limits is that it restricts people from doing things to help their village survive.  Don't grow crops other than corn, it wastes water.  It's boring being in a village with water and food, because you know that you SHOULDN'T work because it's a waste of precious water.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Being almost out of food is way more interesting than having way too much food.

This is a better direction to go.  Make water plentiful and go with the gradual devaluation of food.  Towns will have to stockpile more and more food to survive.  Now the town really has to come together.  Regularly feeding and butchering sheeps to get enough mutton becomes important.  Having bakers making enough pies to keep satisfying the demand is important.  Having carpenters build boxes to store the food so the bakers have enough room to make the pies is important.  Having tailors keeping the population clothed is important.  You can get the same tense survival aspect, but now the whole town has to pitch in to solve it, it's not just something solved by a pro player on a horse.

Going with food devaluation kinda makes sense from a real world perspective. In the real world, as civilizations advance, food demand grows to keep the expanding population fed.  Since the population of towns is mostly static, food devaluation works as a sort-of stand-in for a growing population.

#21 Main Forum » The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling » 2020-04-13 22:16:56

Replies: 10

tl;dr big towns are boring because the meta discourages doing things.  If the meta encouraged stockpiling, big towns would be fun because players would be encouraged to do things.

Recently, Jason implemented some changes so that the value of foods degrades over generations.  This change has the potential to be a great mechanic that can vastly improve the game.  The change was made to address the issue of boredom in late-game towns.  In order fix the boredom, we first have to identify the problem correctly. 

At first glance, it looks like the boredom arises from a lack of challenges.  The corollary to this is the idea that fun arises from overcoming challenges.  This seems obvious.  The game IS fun when everyone has to rush to build the engine so you can get more water for the town.  But does the fun come from the challenge to the villages survival?  Consider another challenge, all of the nearby tarry spots have dried up.  To solve this challenge you get on a horse and ride around for 20 minutes looking for another tarry spot just in time to make a map to it before you die.  This is boring.  It's a similar level of challenge but not nearly as fun.  Instead, lets define the fun in the game as having a reason to be productive.  The fun of needing to make an engine makes sense.  There is a rush to make enough kindling, mine enough iron, fire enough charcoal, refine the iron into steel, etc.  The challenge of running out of water isn't what makes it fun.  Rather the fun comes from having lots of things to do in order to get the water.

If we look at fun this way, then the boredom in late stage towns makes sense.  There are still challenges which I will categorize as exploration challenges and limited resource challenges. Exploration challenges are things like finding a new tarry spot or trading.  Limited resource challenges are things like producing enough food and tools with limited water and iron. 

  • Exploration challenges can be fun occasionally but when 60% of your lives are just holding left mouse button while riding a horse, it gets boring.  Because of the very high necessity for trade, the meta has devolved to a small group of players just going to other towns and leaving their unique resource.  There is no time for actual trade because the need for these resources is too high.  You don't feel like you are being productive solving a challenge, because you are just riding around a map on a horse.

  • The limited resource challenges are almost anti-fun by this new definition.  Rather than encouraging people to be productive farmers, we are encouraged to only be a little productive.  Optimal play is to make small farms because growing too many crops wastes water.  Building rails is practically griefing as a waste of iron that will doom your village.  Only make tools that will be used immediately.

Jason's recent food change is a good example of a challenge encouraging productivity.  As time goes on, towns need to create more food.  This doesn't quite work with the current state of the game because creating more food just hastens the march to eventual water/kerosene/iron limits.  But this would work really well if restrictions on iron/water/kerosene were lifted.

For example, here are some ways to change the resource exhaustion challenges into challenges designed to encourage productivity.  Instead of the tarry spot drying up, newcomen pumps break destroying the iron, rope, beams etc (not the stone blocks because they aren't renewable). The tarry spot would still be there.  This gives players something productive to do, build a new newcomen pump, make more pipes, etc.  It makes sense to build a road to the tarry spot.  It makes sense to build rails to the tarry spot.  The same could work for wells also.  Rather than the newcomen breaking and forcing players to upgrade to diesel, you could build a new newcomen pump to replace it.  The diesel engine could break over time forcing you to scrap and rebuild the whole thing.  Because the kerosene doesn't run out, diesel mines don't run out so iron isn't limited. For this to work, diesel cannot stay race-restricted.  Allowing floors under tarry spots similar to how ice holes work would remedy this.  To fix trade, make it so newcomen pumps only require a single rubber tire when they are first created (like they used to be).  Now trade is still needed but it can become more natural since we aren't so desperate that players have to resort to metagaming just to solve the problem.  Since the pumps and engines break over time rubber will still be needed.  Because kerosene doesn't have a hard limit, cars are actually a useful upgrade to make trade easier.  Airplanes as well.

The beauty of changes like this is that productivity isn't only encouraged during crises, because players know that engines and newcomens break, they'll need to stockpile iron and steel.  They'll need to stockpile spare engines.  Because food loses value, we'll need to stockpile food.  We'll need to build more shelves to store food in.  We'll need to expand the pens.  We'll need to expand the farms.  We'll need to build rails to effectively move resources around.  There's much more work that needs to get done. 

A big problem of tool slots is that it is not fun to be limited in what you can do in a life. This is because stockpiling is discouraged. It's not fun to be limited in what you can do, if you've reached the limit of the amount of what your tools produce without wasting resources.  If stockpiles were encouraged, this changes and tool slots becomes a fun mechanic.

Teaching is discouraged with our current meta.  By the time I teach someone how to farm a crop, we have enough of that crop and making more is wasting soil/water/iron. I could have made the appropriate amount much faster if I didn't teach the player.  If we needed to stockpile, a new player could be taught how to do something, and then spend their life doing it which would be a net positive on the investment of time spent teaching.  New players won't feel like drains on the town if they only know how to do a few things because the town would actually need them to do those things.

#22 Re: Main Forum » The leadership system is useless ATM » 2020-02-18 21:42:46

One way to make leadership useful would be to add a "my allies own this" command to property Gates.  Make it so only people that have been in the leadership chain for at least 3 minutes can use it.  That prevents people from just temporarily following you to get gate access.  It can still be abused by quickly following someone and running away before they see your name.  Babies follow their mothers leaders so by the time they are old enough to use they gate they will have access.

#23 Re: Main Forum » Please allow Track Cart Kits to start on any track. » 2020-01-25 03:04:41

It's not too bad to start multiple carts.  The trick is to build an end track near a corner.  Put the cart on the end track then hit the corner with a hammer to straighten the track.  Launch the cart, then hit the now straight piece with a hammer to fix the corner.

corner rail

#24 Re: Main Forum » Completely bonkers food rework idea » 2019-11-07 21:39:46

Kaveh wrote:

Instead of adding food pips/overflow, overeating causes people to poop. This can then be used for compost.

Also works for making brown shorts.

#25 Re: Main Forum » Building stuff is looking good but... » 2019-11-07 19:19:39

What about planter boxes to allow farming/decoration to happen in buildings?  Make a storage box, dump two baskets of dirt in it.  Treat it like a normal ground tile for planting.

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