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#26 2018-05-17 23:35:06

Alleria
Member
Registered: 2018-03-30
Posts: 339

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

I think the temperature system in the game works well. Watch Naked and Afraid - sometimes they cold af, sometimes they aight.


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#27 2018-05-20 18:10:29

Izzytok
Member
Registered: 2018-05-07
Posts: 66

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

jasonrohrer wrote:

A full set of fur clothes does not get you to perfect if you are outside.  But it helps a lot.

I was kinda thinking a full fur set would get you pretty comfortable in a temperate forest climate.

For an average human there isn't a vast difference between 20°C and 22°C, but between 14°C and 16°C might be the difference between me deciding to take a light jacket or none at all. I'm thinking a non-linear relationship between heat and food consumption might better fit both reality, and make clothing more usefull.

A bell curve would give you a nice central region of "optimal" temperatures, where the change between comfortably warm and "best friggin temperature ever" isn't as great, and also on the edges where you can't really tell if you're  just very cold or freezing, conversely really hot or burning up).

And a quadratic fitted to have a minimum consumption at ideal temperature would have a similar effect near the ideal temperature, but give you more extreme consumptions in the extreme heat regions.

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#28 2018-05-21 13:01:56

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,329

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

Making a room with fire has effect at all?


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Playing OHOL optimally is like cosplaying a cactus: stand still and don't waste the water.

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#29 2018-05-21 23:02:49

Izzytok
Member
Registered: 2018-05-07
Posts: 66

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

pein wrote:

Making a room with fire has effect at all?

Yep, it does. By my calculations it's not major, but my calculations could be off.

Standing naked in a 3x3 adobe room with wooden floors, diagonally across from a slow fire, will give you a heat of 0.157. Standing outside the same distance away from a slow fire, that would be 0.139. Funnily enough, because of the way insulation works, and because the floors insulate, your corner of the room would have been warmer without the floors, having 0.187 heat in that situation.

If you're standing at the slow fire outside, you'd have a heat of 0.55 which is close to ideal. If you then build a 3x3 room with floors around the fire you get a heat of 0.66, or 0.62 without the floors.

I guess it's important to note that building floors around a fire will make the fire hotter, and the tiles outside the flooring cooler. It just kinda contains heat where the insulation is, which is why clothing is great untill you stand near a fire or in a desert. In that situation it just traps all the heat produced on that tile, inside the tile, and consequently - you.

Last edited by Izzytok (2018-05-21 23:07:21)

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#30 2018-05-30 05:46:20

Morti
Member
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 1,317

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

Seeing a lot of Eve's and towns lately in cold grasslands and swamps, so I'm bumping this up for new players.

It makes a huge difference on the time, soil and food consumed by the town to have players warm (not hot, but warm). Please, try to start your towns near large grasslands and large swamps, but also on desert tiles.

As close to balanced temperature as you can manage is best.

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#31 2018-06-19 14:01:23

Christoffer
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 148
Website

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

Jason's new thread on CORE made me want to revisit temperature again. Better to do it in one of the original threads than to start over, I'm thinking:

So, some time ago I stated that I was going to put some time into coding a more fleshed out system for the temperature, but then I never reported back. I did quite some research and actually put some of it into code:
- find out if the player is outside or inside a house
- if inside, shelter against wind and sun.
- treat heat from fire and heat sources as radiation - not conduction. If there are heat sources inside, then correctly calculate the temperature difference between inside and outside.
- if outside, get hit by wind and sun in addition to temperature
- improved model for clothes warmth and protection (e.g. don't let your clothes affect temperature and heat transfer for the tile you are standing on)

I found that wind and solar radiation were important to supplement pure temperature. Otherwise houses would have no real effect, and clothes would not have the correct effect in Snow and Desert biomes (which they don't have today).

This may sound overly complex, but it actually boils down to fairly small changes: biomes get wind speeds and solar radiation intensity in addition to base temperature; clothes use Clo values instead of insulation, but those could be calculated from the current data.

So why didn't I finish this job? I got to the feet when I realized that my approach would not solve the problem completely after all. Feet are the one body part which is touching the ground, and therefore needs to be treated differently. Walking in snow or on desert sand without protecting your feet will kill you (so will running naked in the desert, but not for the same reason). Also, floors should have some meaning, even though they don't affect temperature. This made me think wider and my eventual conclusion was that temperature is not by itself a good mechanic for governing survival (food burn). A few examples to illustrate my point:
- if you have clothes on while standing close to a fire, you may die from the heat. It's a bit unreasonable to assume that people who use both clothes and fire would accidentally die from it. Same situation for fire indoors or on a floor tile.
- in the warm desert, it's best to run around naked. In reality, you cannot survive a desert trek without clothes. So clothes and shelter ought to be paramount for survival in the desert.

And the conclusion: Any tech players use for survival should be assumed to improve their situation. Clothes, heat sources, houses, (future air conditioning, medicine, ...) should all be weighed in into a measurement which reduces food burn. To try to balance this measurement as cold-perfect-hot is not really a good model, and it will fit increasingly poorly as new technology gets added to the tech tree. Is vaccine hot or cold? No. Does it improve survival? Yes.

The simplest model would be to just have a single 'Tech' score for a player, and have clothes, walls, floors, heat sources, vitamins... all add something to it. It's impact on food burn should probably be a logarithmic curve. I don't know what the best visualization would be. Maybe colors or a value? Something that more clearly is showing what your current food consumption per minute is.

A better model would identify a limited number of 'Dangers' in the environment (different per biome) and let different tech protect against different dangers. Clothes offer protection against cold, wind, sun/heat; walls against wind and sun; fire against cold, (medicin/vitamins against sickness in the future) and so on ...
Still, the visualization should remain a single indicator of your current food burn.


So, what are the rest of you thinking? I think it's correct to have food burn vary with what you are wearing and what your surroundings are. I just don't think balancing temperature does the trick.

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#32 2018-06-19 15:50:07

Anshin
Member
Registered: 2018-04-01
Posts: 614

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

@Flintstone
You said you had trouble with how to calculate shoes... Can they be treated as "floors that travel with you"?
I think keeping the number of gauges down is important, and tying the environment to energy consumption is close enough. Since you can tie healing into the already present energy gauge I think everything relevant to survival is already available. You are right that the math for factors affecting energy consumption need tweaking though.

I like your ideas for calculating inside vs outside. Houses really need to be easier to build and more important in use.
Wooden floor roads everywhere are silly and wasteful.

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#33 2018-06-19 16:19:44

YAHG
Member
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 1,347

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

Clothes can just insulate you towards the middle. So much of the gameplay is for gameplay's sake not for realisms already.


"be prepared and one person cant kill all city, if he can, then you deserve it"  -pein
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#34 2018-06-19 23:08:52

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,750

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

So, heading into the hot desert, pile on the furs, YAHG?

I have thought about clothes that cool you (things can have negative heat).

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#35 2018-06-19 23:13:42

YAHG
Member
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 1,347

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

jasonrohrer wrote:

So, heading into the hot desert, pile on the furs, YAHG?

I have thought about clothes that cool you (things can have negative heat).

Pretty much

https://www.google.com/search?q=arab+de … 72&bih=954


"be prepared and one person cant kill all city, if he can, then you deserve it"  -pein
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#36 2018-06-19 23:55:24

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,750

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

But not furs....  they're not wearing insulating clothing, like giant oven mitts.  They are protecting themselves from the sun with flowing, breathable clothing.

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#37 2018-06-20 00:04:18

YAHG
Member
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 1,347

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

jasonrohrer wrote:

But not furs....  they're not wearing insulating clothing, like giant oven mitts.  They are protecting themselves from the sun with flowing, breathable clothing.

That could be alright too, then again no one has the time/inventory space to have
more than one outfit handy for when they go to the next biome over.

The point I was trying to make is that clothes are gear, they are a good deal of effort
to make and we have to keep making them. They should be helping us not hurting us
even if it isn't pure realism.

We can ALL imagine what would happen in game if you took off your sealskin coat to
work the part of the farm on the desert tiles... big_smile


"be prepared and one person cant kill all city, if he can, then you deserve it"  -pein
https://kazetsukai.github.io/onetech/#
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#38 2018-06-20 02:59:39

zennyrpg
Member
Registered: 2018-06-03
Posts: 98

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

jasonrohrer wrote:

So, heading into the hot desert, pile on the furs, YAHG?

I have thought about clothes that cool you (things can have negative heat).

Some clothes could have both effects.  Like furs warm you alot.  But a cotton shirt would warm you a little but also cool you some too.  A sun hat could only cool.

Nothing that cools you should put you past perfect though.  Wearing a hat shouldn't make me freeze faster in an ice biome.

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#39 2018-06-20 03:11:30

karltown
Member
From: Somewhere
Registered: 2018-04-15
Posts: 71

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

jasonrohrer wrote:

But not furs....  they're not wearing insulating clothing, like giant oven mitts.  They are protecting themselves from the sun with flowing, breathable clothing.

Sunhats could have negative heat.


Every time time you pick a seed carrot a penguin dies.

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#40 2018-06-20 03:25:44

Anshin
Member
Registered: 2018-04-01
Posts: 614

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

YAHG wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:

But not furs....  they're not wearing insulating clothing, like giant oven mitts.  They are protecting themselves from the sun with flowing, breathable clothing.

That could be alright too, then again no one has the time/inventory space to have
more than one outfit handy for when they go to the next biome over.

The point I was trying to make is that clothes are gear, they are a good deal of effort
to make and we have to keep making them. They should be helping us not hurting us
even if it isn't pure realism.

We can ALL imagine what would happen in game if you took off your sealskin coat to
work the part of the farm on the desert tiles... big_smile

This is all good! Along with biome specific farming it gives people a reason to stay in the biome they are born into.

Saris please!

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#41 2018-06-20 15:46:38

Izzytok
Member
Registered: 2018-05-07
Posts: 66

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

I think considering a complete revamp of the temperatures of the biomes should be considered. And also personal heat.

Currently, if you somehow maxed out your insulation on a neutral tile, you'd be cold. People are most confortable in the ~25°C ish temperatures, even though our body temperature is around 37°C. Our bodies produce extra heat they count on shedding.

Being perfectly insulated is the same as having the entire enviroment the same temperature as the insulated bit. Now think about how hot a 37°C enviroment is, even though that's your bodies temperature! That's what perfect insulation would feel like, the way the game is currently however you'd get 0.4 heat. Not even fully comfortable warmth.

I propose players should generate more heat themselves. Then polar zones could be colder, and you could balance furs to get you comfortable in the cold. Adding heat generation/loss to low tech clothing feels a bit like cheating (that's what high tech clothes should do!), although for desert clothing making heat consuming clothing might already be necessary.

This also kind of assumes bigger biomes, since with the biomes this small right now, you just want a set of clothing that works everywhere.

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#42 2018-11-11 09:15:43

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,329

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

i think i bump it, still useful
temp recalculation only means that each second you store up some heat which cancels out some cold but the main principle is the same standing in same spot, its a nerf to temp run but  a buff to deserts and surrounding tiles

few things:
pip/minute (or pip per sec but that would be 0.x) is much better than second/pip, sure is ok to know how many seconds you will use the next pip, but with onetech food values (+2 bonus) pip per min is a good indicator for how much food you actually need
berries are mainstream so better ''currency''


https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7986 livestock pens 4.0
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4411 maxi guide

Playing OHOL optimally is like cosplaying a cactus: stand still and don't waste the water.

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#43 2018-11-24 00:19:17

betame
Member
Registered: 2018-08-04
Posts: 202

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

Noting here that the relation between food consumption and temperature based on server code is

FoodConsumedPerHour = 3600/[2+20*(1-2*|heat-0.5|)]
cBOK71i.png

Last edited by betame (2019-01-03 02:28:40)


Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info

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#44 2018-11-24 09:28:08

Psykout
Member
Registered: 2018-11-14
Posts: 353

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

Christoffer wrote:

I agree it’s a good for the game to have clothes and heat sources matter quite a bit, so no argument there. But unless a full set of fur clothes will put your temperature in a good spot, the clothes won’t be that important after all, correct?

The math in this thread shows how important clothes are. We are focusing on, full clothes don't make my meter perfect so therefor I don't see the point in them, instead of comparing the numbers. A good number comparison to see would be Food Consumption: Naked vs Fully Clothed in each biome. I made this mistake and realized I was wrong, this thread and the math shows how wrong I was. Sure your meter isn't perfect everywhere decked out in clothes, but you are still consuming a fraction of the food you would without, which is not as easy to notice in game.

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#45 2018-11-25 02:24:37

betame
Member
Registered: 2018-08-04
Posts: 202

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

Out of date; see: temperature thread

Perfect temperature  22.0 sec/pip             164 pip/hr
Worst temperature     2.0 sec/pip            1800 pip/hr

Naked in Neutral      4.8 sec/pip             746 pip/hr
Insulation 67.3%      8.3 sec/pip             433 pip/hr
Coat & all furs      12.4 sec/pip (ins 86.75) 291 pip/hr
Clothed + rug        18.0 sec/pip (ins 100%)  200 pip/hr

Naked in Desert.      8.3 sec/pip             433 pip/hr
Insulation 60.1%      4.8 sec/pip             746 pip/hr
Insulation 79.2%+     2.0 sec/pip            1800 pip/hr

Naked in Ice          2.5 sec/pip            1437 pip/hr
Insulation 80.5%      8.3 sec/pip             433 pip/hr
Coat & all furs      10.0 sec/pip (ins 86.75) 360 pip/hr
Clothed + rug        15.6 sec/pip (ins 100%)  231 pip/hr

Naked in Jungle      20.3 sec/pip             178 pip/hr
Insulation 46.5%     22.0 sec/pip             164 pip/hr
Insulation 65.2%     20.3 sec/pip             178 pip/hr
Clothed + rug        10.0 sec/pip (ins 100%)  360 pip/hr

Warning: 40%+ insulation is lethal with fever even if you get to a neutral biome. 55%+ insulation is lethal even if you can get to ice.

Got a little concerned for my data. Found a post where Jason said Naked Neutral is 782 food/hr, 4.6 sec/pip. But also another post that confirms 4.8 +/- 0.15.
My in game test gave 4.776 sec/pip, and my code gives the data above, specifically 4.8206 sec/pip.
Checking my Python script. int->float didn't matter.
Retested* in last room of the tutorial and got 4.800 and 4.820(hopefully walls and and a few squares of warm biomes outside didn't matter.) Outside tutorial middle of swamp: 4.783 and 4.808.
*Timed the loss of 10 full pips then divided the time by 10, pressed timer at start and end for accuracy.

To prove the results to myself, I've play-tested this code in the middle of the last room of the tutorial with varying clothes, and the tutorial's fire room varying clothes, door, and where I stand. Also tested outside of tutorial unclothed in middle of large neutral biome, and desert. I'd welcome any other tests y'all wanna do.

Last edited by betame (2019-02-17 04:01:19)


Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info

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#46 2018-11-25 08:37:13

Psykout
Member
Registered: 2018-11-14
Posts: 353

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

betame wrote:
Perfect temperature  22.0 sec/pip             164 pip/hr
Worst temperature     2.0 sec/pip            1800 pip/hr

Naked in Neutral      4.8 sec/pip             746 pip/hr
Insulation 67.3%      8.3 sec/pip             433 pip/hr
Coat & all furs      12.4 sec/pip (ins 86.75) 291 pip/hr
Clothed + rug        18.0 sec/pip (ins 100%)  200 pip/hr

Naked in Desert.      8.3 sec/pip             433 pip/hr
Insulation 60.1%      4.8 sec/pip             746 pip/hr
Insulation 79.2%+     2.0 sec/pip            1800 pip/hr

Naked in Ice          2.5 sec/pip            1437 pip/hr
Insulation 80.5%      8.3 sec/pip             433 pip/hr
Coat & all furs      10.0 sec/pip (ins 86.75) 360 pip/hr
Clothed + rug        15.6 sec/pip (in 100%)   231 pip/hr

Naked in Jungle      20.3 sec/pip             178 pip/hr
Insulation 46.5%     22.0 sec/pip             164 pip/hr
Insulation 65.2%     20.3 sec/pip             178 pip/hr
Clothed + rug        10.0 sec/pip (ins 100%)  360 pip/hr

Warning: 40%+ insulation is lethal with fever even if you get to a neutral biome. 55%+ insulation is lethal even if you can get to ice.

You sir are the hero we need but don't deserve. Thank you.

Really good data here, as I said, it might not seem like much going off the in game meter, but woo boy, twice as much food needed if unclothed is huge in the nuetral climates. Obviously clothes are detrimental (which gives weight to sun repellent clothes - looking at you straw hat and reed skirt) in the warm biomes, biggest one for me though, the Tundra. 360 compared to 1437 is the biggest difference by a long shot, a staggering 1k less per hour... I would have expected that it would need a lot more per hour to manage an ice biome compared to grassland. Really think with some subtle tweaks (like being able to eat seals and penguins) you could full on live in Tundra being hunters and fisherman - you just really need to have full set of clothes for everyone to do it.


Right now Tundra and Badlands don't have nearly as much food as the others and they require a bit to access them, grassland - berries/foraged, Savannah - Carrots/Forage/Rabbits/Turkey/Cows, Swamp - Eggs/Pigs/Geese, Badlands - Mutton. It is interesting to ponder the state of the game if each biome had more food sources that just require different means of attaining them. Right now agriculture is a 'set it and forget it' approach with some intervening here and there. Hunting requires constant player interaction and attention. I would be fine if this was a legitimate way of feeding a group of people, because the sheer act of supplying it curbs your ability to progress and you plateau. Each biome could support basic life, but it would be that much harder to scale up. This would still favor settlements on the edges of biomes because of the close access to multiple tech resources, but help eliminate the whole "Well there isn't enough water, dirt, warm nearby, either I look for another 1/4 of my life or suicide and retry" aspect that happens now.

In all, make Tundras and Badlands great again! Let us live there, not thrive, but simply live there, until the next step is possible. As much as I love finding that "perfect" spot as an Eve, it's outweighed by the times I have ran past great clusters of resources because it was too cold or too dry. That glimmer of hope seeing some swamp land near a desert/grassland mix smashed to pieces because its a 5 tile swamp with no ponds (I theorize that biomes are small because a mix of them takes up too much of the budget of a viable settlement. If biomes are too big we'd have less places to settle) I would love so much to have some good conversation about if this could be an feasible end goal of OHOL or if it homogenizes survival too much.

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#47 2018-11-28 16:52:16

Jadelink
Member
Registered: 2018-11-24
Posts: 31

Re: Food Consumption vs Temperature

Thanks for doing the math for me.  I have got to the stage where I routinely abandon villages that dont have some berry patch on warm terrain.  The kids overgraze the bushes, and faster food drop probably makes the new players more scared of accidental starvation, pushing them to overeat.   A berry patch on cold terrain is asking for a famine, at least in the noobpocalypse.

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