A whoops on the curse radius

pein · 2019-09-25 18:07:18

i mean you can already tell max range is bad, and you say curses are uni lateral but it isn't exactly the case
just like usually, you only consider one scenario where a player griefs and multiple others see them

while the most common case i think is:
Player A kills someone
Player B kills her
Player A curses player B for stabbing him
Player B curses back

Now this would be another bad example of the tag game you did with duels. Basically that you are right because you cursed him first.

The whole reason was to make curses milder, this makes one single curse can keep you out of a server for a week if the other player is online.

Can really wrap my mind around this curses either, basically towns are random, player movement is random, while it can be +-80 on average

lets say you got 6 curses and 2 players are online, one blocks you out one side of map, other blocks you out other side of map
it shouldn't be final block from whole rift just annoying enough to get inside
i would say my original idea with 4 parts of map is best, 9 is maybe too much

so basically if you are cursed NW then NW is blocked for you if any of players are there
If you are cursed NE or Sw the same.
So if there are 4 players who cursed you, they are online, you cant get into the rift
nobody builds cities in center so it's decently good against exploiting birth
and it's forgiving enough.

if nobody has beef with you then you can be born anywhere, chances are you use same time zone and you meet same hours most days. but if no one cursed you from online players, then it shouldn't be an issue to get in
but at any point 4 players cursed you and they are spread out you wont be able to spawn any side of the rift

miskas · 2019-09-25 18:09:07

if griefers seem to cause problems just reduce the curse list cap or the multiplier.
But I don't think they will be a problem. they like to harm people and see their agony. sending people to DK isnt so rewarding.

Jason , whats the range of a curse by name? can I curse someone 200 tiles away?

Twisted · 2019-09-25 18:13:23

Thaulos wrote:

I would like to remind everyone on how exploitable that kind of system is. We need a certain amount of minimum curses to avoid griefers being able to band together and send people to donkey town.
@Twisted you specially should be very aware of how this kind of thing can be abused. What if all griefers in discord cursed you during a live stream? You would be pretty much put on donkey town for the rest of the week.

Very good point, didn't think of that. But then again, A) they'd have to be playing at the same time, and B) if they are serial griefers they'd probably be in DT themselves and their curses wouldn't do much. But it is something to keep in mind.

Thaulos · 2019-09-25 18:18:40

Only one would need to be online inside the rift mind you.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-25 18:38:40

Here's a list of cities by murder rate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … urder_rate

Tijuana has 138 / 100,000 per year.

That's only 0.138% of people per year murdered (1/10 of 1%)

However, the murder rate that I'm giving for OHOL is not "per year" but "per lifetime". In other words, what percentage of deaths are by murder?

Assuming that people in Tijuana live 60 years, we multiply 0.138% by 60, and we find out that 8% of the population will die by murder. There are 138 murders per year per 100,000 people, but 8,280 murders per 60 years per 100,000 people.

So playing OHOL is for an hour is like living a lifetime in Tijuana.

Dodge · 2019-09-25 18:50:01

jasonrohrer wrote:

Here's a list of cities by murder rate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … urder_rate
Tijuana has 138 / 100,000 per year.
That's only 0.138% of people per year murdered (1/10 of 1%)
However, the murder rate that I'm giving for OHOL is not "per year" but "per lifetime". In other words, what percentage of deaths are by murder?
Assuming that people in Tijuana live 60 years, we multiply 0.138% by 60, and we find out that 8% of the population will die by murder. There are 138 murders per year per 100,000 people, but 8,280 murders per 60 years per 100,000 people.

So playing OHOL is for an hour is like living a lifetime in Tijuana.

i'm guessing most of these are related to drug trafficking and other illegal activities.

Are you going to add drugs like cocaine at one point in the game?

DestinyCall · 2019-09-25 19:08:19

Dodge wrote:

i'm guessing most of these are related to drug trafficking and other illegal activities.
Are you going to add drugs like cocaine at one point in the game?

We already have weed and shrooms. Heroin would be the next logical step.

MultiLife · 2019-09-25 19:13:57

jasonrohrer wrote:

However, I'm really hesitant about proscribing specific punishments. I don't have specific ideas in mind for how I want players to play this game, or what the "right way" is.

Surely it is not the right way to play to abuse loopholes and make others' experience miserable? I'm fine if someone wants to play this game to kill but I am not fine when they get to have overpower with things like juggling war swords, first growl kills, zoom out kill trigger and so on so forth. I believe you are making a game of parenting and civilization, and someone spamming suicides to get back to destroying others' work surely cannot be the right way to play? It's not fair and it's not part of the game to abuse things like these with no consequences.

jasonrohrer wrote:

That's why I like this new system better. You get to define "right" and "wrong" for yourself. If someone bugs you, you can easily curse them (you get one token every 30 minutes), and you will be VERY unlikely to see them again for the next week. They can't spawn w/in 200 tiles of your location. Yes, they might be able to find you, but it will be difficult. The rift is big. It's easy to walk from one edge to another, but much hard to explore the whole thing.
And even if they do find you from 200+ tiles away, you've got a fence, right?
So they're more likely to go after other people than you, in other families, and get cursed by them too. If they bug enough, they will be blocked.
But each person can define what "bad" is for them, without me imposing any judgement.

I like that we can be the judge but I don't like how it makes newbies and passive players leak in players we blacklisted. I'd also love to blacklist people for life, not for 7 days. And I'd love to be able to run to the horizon however far I want and never see a fence again.
When I got my dose of griefers before the Rift, I'd just run into the wilderness and seclude myself, remove myself from the toxic people. But now I don't have that freedom, and boy does it suck.

Twisted · 2019-09-25 19:38:51

Thaulos wrote:

Only one would need to be online inside the rift mind you.

I was under the impression that the system would count online people currently playing only. So if there's five people currently playing that have you cursed, your exile radius is 500, even though you might be cursed by 20 people in total from other offline people.

If it doesn't count online people only and counts all people that cursed you, then I don't think it's a good system. And reading Jason's post again, that's clearly how it's described. So no, I don't think that's a good solution.

Lava · 2019-09-25 19:50:07

Can we get an indicator on how many curses our kids have? If I have a baby that's evil I wont know until he/she does malevolent things or kills someone which can really ruin a village would love a curse indicator.

DestinyCall · 2019-09-25 20:25:33

Lava wrote:

Can we get an indicator on how many curses our kids have? If I have a baby that's evil I wont know until he/she does malevolent things or kills someone which can really ruin a village would love a curse indicator.

We now have a notification when our baby is brand new to the game. Why not have a similar notification when we get a player with over 100 curses? Then we can decide if we want to risk raising our baby, hoping they will do no harm ... or go drop our devil baby on a wild boar.

Anhigen · 2019-09-25 20:37:47

pein wrote:

So basically if you are cursed NW then NW is blocked for you if any of players are there

I like location blocking too. If two people are "fighting" and wind up cursing each other it's probably good, for the village, that both of them get bounced out of that area for a while. This does have the direct problem of both of them being potentially born in the next area they spawn (in the event, like you described, that they both stab and curse each other over some beef) but you could mitigate that with a "Cant be spawned with in x of a person who has cursed you today" rule though.

But locations are interesting because the arcs are more consistent and lasting longer. Towns are staying put along with the work you put into them. Maybe you get a curse and it blocks you out of this quadrant for one day. Get five curses and you're not going to be born in that quad for five days. Maybe the person was wrongly cursed once, but since the town will likely be there tomorrow now, they can be born back to that family when they play again. You caused serious trauma that the family had to recover from? You're probably not being born in that quad, let alone town, until the entire memory of the place is gone and forgotten--maybe even several arcs later, depending on the severity of your offences.

Now, griefers could always just travel to preform their badness if their curses/day blocks were just tagged to the quad they were cursed in. Maybe they're blocked out of being born there today but they just high tail back, their next life, and wrack up a big curse score in the NW whenever they want--high points! So what if it wasn't attached to where you were cursed but where you born? 1 curse is a 24hr ban to whichever quad you were born in. As the griefer get shuttled through the four quadrants (supposing they are effectively cursed in time by their victims which is it's own problem, it seems) then after 4 strikes, they're done for the day. It's hard to imagine a situation where you get into 4 separate fights with 4 separate people in all 4 corners of the map and don't deserve a timeout. In a coordinated attack you might be griefed out of a quadrant as 5 people curse your life/birth place, but it would take a greater effort, and much more time, to have to wait for you to be born in each quadrant THEN curse, to bounce you out of the rift completely. Like, multiple people, online, same time, finding you, over a few to several hours... I mean, I don't know a system that's going to be really ironclad against that type of attack in the first place...

But, if you were born to a town (within a quadrant), and caused a ruckus, you would be blocked for some time, and if you came back to that town while you're still cursed (on block/probation) and cause even more havoc you'd be blocked from the quad you came from too leaving you just two more chances to be born in the rift while you still got curses out on your name. I mean, I think you could write it up so that if you only have 1 available quad to be born in THAT sends you to DT, giving you just three "separate" offences in a day before you're bounced out for at least 24 hours... but likely more if you were out on mission to cause pain and were then cursed by multiple people in multiple areas. Obviously this tracker would extended through arcs as well, which is great, but within individual arcs it would be fantastic. It could be weighted too maybe, so that 1 curse in a quad is worth half a day but 2 curses is more than a full day, 3 curses is almost two full days, so and so forth. Idk, the neatness of a 1 day ban on a quad is attractive--still plenty of quads to play in--but it might be too strong against petty squabbles. Anyway...

The more people you hurt the longer you're kicked out, but minor offences and squabbles don't rack up against you too punitively.

Last edited by Anhigen (2019-09-26 00:43:01)

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-25 22:19:55

Yeah, twisted, I'm counting total curses, not just for those from people online.

Total curses is a measure of "how many people you've bugged" recently.

If you bug a lot of people, your blocking radius grows.

Right now, pretty much no one goes to d-town.

With this change, I'm hopefully tweaking it a bit in the other direction, so that guy with 94 curses probably always goes to d-town, and will struggle to find a time when no one online is blocking him from the whole rift.

Here's the change (not live yet):

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … 665f32d89a

The comment explains how it works.

What I like about this is that it's a "soft" system. First, it has two fine-grained parameter that I can tweak (curse duration, currently 7 days, and starting radius, currently 200). By tweaking those, I can adjust precisely how hard or easy life is for the widely-cursed players.

Second, it's "soft" in that the effects of being cursed come on gradually. As you are cursed a bit, there are fewer and fewer spots on the map where you can be born. You might start to notice that. Less family variety, gradually. Then, when you're cursed even more, you will find that there are more and more times when you can't be born at all, and go to d-town. This isn't a fixed sentence, but randomly-changing black-out windows for you that grow more and more dense as you keep getting cursed more. You will probably never get to the point where you can't play in the rift ever, but you may get to the point where 75% of the time, you can't manage to get born there.

But all this comes on gradually. The game essentially gets less interesting and more and more of a PITA to play as you get cursed more and more.

And if you change your ways, and stop getting cursed, the effects fade out just as gradually. Your total curse score drops (one point per 7 days), so your radius shrinks, and you fall off of people's curse lists (also after 7 days), so fewer people block you.

Finally, in terms of ME not defining "bad" for you, that's really important. Some people don't want to play with berry munchers. Others don't want to play with RP-ers. Others don't want to play with racists. Or with people who swear. Or with bossy people.... or with fence-builders.

You decide, for yourself, who you want to block, and they are blocked INSTANTLY for 7 days from getting born into your world. You might be the only person in the world who cares about what you care about, and you might never convince others to help you get rid of this person who specifically annoys you. But you don't have to. Curse them, and they're gone for you.

By doing this, over time, you will be able to curate a group of people who share your sensibilities.

Thaulos · 2019-09-25 23:59:11

4 curses is too low of a threshold imo. Maybe increase more slowly? One misunderstanding in town and a player can be forced out for a week.

This feature should impact people who are cursed consistently.

It could also make sense to decrease the score somehow (remove oldest curse token?) after one hour of donkey town instead of having a flat off-game token. People can just alternate accounts to bypass donkey town entirely if tokens are based solely on a relatively low amount of offline time. Having cursed players play off the curses instead of just waiting would make it a lot more difficult to cheat the system.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-09-26 00:01:34)

wondible · 2019-09-26 01:28:23

Sample rift coverage at radius 50:

200:

400: (1 curse)

Of course if you have one curse only one circle applies

DestinyCall · 2019-09-26 02:10:00

I like it.

I can see why 50 tile radius didn't accomplish much. The whole Rift would need to hate your guts before you had any chance of going to DT. 200 tiles is much more reasonable.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-09-26 02:17:23)

pein · 2019-09-26 06:05:08

Wondible, on a square based map, the radius of diagonals are same as sides, when talking about tiles, so the circle is a square, no?
squares got this weird problem that distances diagonally are 1.4 times longer but the tiles distance is the same so it's basically an optical illusion
you can run more distance to corners than to sides, so it seems faster, also if I'm correct, the speed of the characters and horses is actually tile/min not distance per minute.

On a side note, that's why I love hex based maps, as the distance of tiles and the distance is actually pretty much the same
here is a nice article about them https://www.redblobgames.com/grids/hexagons/
so a misconception is that hex based maps need 3 variables to store tile coordinates, but that's not true, 2 is enough
they also look more natural and there are no diagonals, just sides, so there are more options in fights, instead of 4 neighbours are 6 (well with diagonals there are 8 neighbours for squares but that makes it quite weird. But for map generation, less neighbours means less complicated graphics.
I mean is too late for OHOL to implement hex maps, nature would be ok but buildings would require sprite changes, engine changes, etc.

Anhigen
i meant that instead of checking for the radius of mothers who cursed you, should check for the quadrant they are inside
this distance based blocking has no use, as you can't really predict where griefers gonna born
If the towns are in corners, chances are that griefer will be born in the middle of the map, so if you happen to run trough the middle, chances are you get a lot of babies who are blocked out from edges
but it's not exact science, town locations will be generally in green biomes, close to soil and water (generally it's the case). Good towns will be close to iron mines and tarry spots as time goes on.
But we cant really change our behaviour to use the system to our advantage, like you could be a mother and go middle of the map, fence it around and murder anyone who spawns to you. Technically, you would have most of the cursed players spawn to you, but not all of them.

With a quadrant system, you could be sure that if someone is born outside your area, is probably cursed by someone in your town. Other than not making towns on edges of quadrants, wouldn't be much difference, but with current and future system, some moms can walk out from cover of the cursing players and those fuckers can trick the blocking range.
So lets say the map has 4 zones A,B,C,D
if player 1 curses player 2
then player two can't be born into the quadrant where the player 1 is.
IF that is A this life, then the cursed player won't be born in A quadrant. If next life player 1 borns into zone B, then the cursed player can go back to zone A, but not to B.
This might sound complex, but if multiple players got the same curse target, they could also be spread out from each other to improve a safety net against griefers.
Lets say player 1 cursed JJ Muncher.
Player 2, 3, 4 did the same.
Now if it's possible, before birth, the server would check if there are any players who cursed the same target as you then they would decrease the likelihood to be born to them. This would effectively buff the area of ban. Might be too complex

Note that most players will be same zones, and not all sides of maps are used. So this would mean that cursed players are blocked off of most civilized areas. But with ranged curses, luck can be much bigger, than fixed areas.
Lets say there is a town in top left corner. Player 1 cursed Jojo, he is at the edge of map, she is casting a shadow of 200 tile radius. Someone steps out of that radius, has a kid, that kid can be Jojo again. Similarly, a town on like 250 distance from the side, has an 50 area in the corner where the cursed players can come back to them, and your city is still the closest.

I think Jason already mentioned he won't do force fields, the birth location quadrant block is similar to old system, maybe could even be combined with ranges. but it's not up to us to decide.

I agree that we can't objectively decide upon the fate of players. Like that 90 curses are for a reason, but like 5-10 curses shouldn't mean that you perm blocked from everywhere, maybe you are flamboyant, and temperamental, and you stand up for yourself and others. Also, don't see why is good to have unilateral curses. Again this black and white view where you always the good guy. If you curse me for any reason, i won't thank you for it, nobody does, most people don't even think they deserve it, even if they do, they won't admit it. Revenging or saving others can get you killed or cursed. So it's a bad wish towards others and no one ever checks if it's for a reason. Someone once said that if you are cursed, you deserved it cause you made someone angry. That is highly subjective. I might not get angry and don't think it's worth spending my life to avenge you or frame you, but you would do it in reverse case scenario. Once i saw in stdout txt that one person spent 1 whole life getting me curses cause i asked her to do some work and warned her that "i might stab you" which is not a crime in itself and that self-righteous idiot killed me for it, and spent an hour to walk around begging and trading for curses. It's still a problem that curses basically cost nothing. Like if you go down drag someone with you, that's the main attitude of people. I don't even like the fact when people think they are so important that they can decide the fate of others, that they can curse others and frame others in name of justice. That is a type of griefing in itself and it's a serious issue. More serious than random killers. I mean it was when we don't had this idiotic duel system, cause you could play it out and the winner was the right and the loser was the wrong. I don't see why wouldn't i kill someone who i curse. Why would i consider someone unfit to play with others but let to play his life out.
And why would i want to born to someone who cannot born to me.
I think that cursing very often should also increase your range when you are cursed back.

Also, donkey town doesn't teach anything, and they might not even know why they were cursed and that they are cursed.
So a message could be sent to cursed players that you got x hours and y curses and you should improve your behaviour.
Maybe some sort of quest to pay the debt. Like you could do some certain tasks to decrease the cursed time or radius, and realize that you can pay the game differently. Ofc people who just stab others each life and never want to change, never want to do a proper Eve run, should get more severe punishments.

miskas · 2019-09-26 06:58:00

Jason, what's the range of a curse by name? can I curse someone 200 tiles away?

if yes you might need to fix that so griefers don't co-op via discord to mass curse a random person
and they have to be actually there.

Last edited by miskas (2019-09-26 06:58:29)

Twisted · 2019-09-26 09:24:59

I agree with Thaulos, 200 by 200 seems a bit extreme. I feel like it's too easy to get caught in the crossfire.

Also, curse points going down at a rate of one per week seems a bit extreme. If I get born at the same time as one other person and I decide to be a jerk to them, I can curse them twice in one life (since it takes 30 minutes for curse tokens to regenerate). If I cooperate with one other person (or have a second account) we can set their curse score from 0 to 4 in half an hour, basically exiling them to Donkey Town for a week whenever I'm playing.

I've always been a proponent for more strict and more efficient cursing, but this seems a bit too much.

IMO the best solution would be to only look at currently online people when counting someone's curse score.

MrShuriken · 2019-09-26 09:46:04

Just keep the 200x200 radius and if 8 or more people are playing who have you cursed you go to donkey town
Make it so you regain curse token per hour instead of 1/2 an hour.
If your total curse thing is over 30 curses you go to donkey town
Per hour in donkey town lived is -1 curses to your total curse score.
You can curse a recently dead person, yet only for 5 minutes
You can curse a person only if their grave or they are within a 50x50 block of you

seth · 2019-09-26 12:28:22

Hey I am a player who usually plays once or twice a month, so I'm realizing cursing people won't do a whole lot for me.. I wonder, is it possible for the curse to last for 7 days, but for that counter to only decrease on days the person who did the cursing plays the game?

That way, you're assured at least 6 games where the curse is in affect (assuming you don't play again on day 1)

... also, I know that cursing doesn't affect where I'm born, but if I really don't want to play with a person who enjoys spewing bigoted slurs, I'd like the game to not make me born near them either.. I wonder what the implications are if there's a slight preference to be born away from people you've cursed.. Probably using a smaller radius than is used for the person who is cursed.

Last edited by seth (2019-09-26 12:33:29)

wondible · 2019-09-26 13:02:04

pein wrote:

Wondible, on a square based map, the radius of diagonals are same as sides, when talking about tiles, so the circle is a square, no?

That may get a little weird for small numbers like bow range, or for pathing were you can't take the "crow flies" route, but the curse is straight up distance. I was going for the big picture of how radius interacts with area and population density.

double distance( doublePair inA, doublePair inB ) {
    double delX = inA.x - inB.x;
    double delY = inA.y - inB.y;
    
    return sqrt( delX * delX + delY * delY );
    }

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-26 16:00:53

Yes, this cursing stuff happens with circles, not squares.

Wondible, if you only have 1 curse, which puts your radius up to 400, then there would only be one circle on the map at most for you, right?

Even so, I see how 400 (which is greater than the radius of the rift) is too much.

Twisted, I hear your suggestion. However, I worry that even for a widely-cursed player, the chances of multiple people who cursed them being online at the same time is small. I'll check, though.

wondible · 2019-09-26 16:18:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

Wondible, if you only have 1 curse, which puts your radius up to 400, then there would only be one circle on the map at most for you, right?
Even so, I see how 400 (which is greater than the radius of the rift) is too much.

My understanding of the code is 1 curse = 1 circle. In the image you can kind of make out the outlines of some circles, but it's not the best illustration for that case. However my understanding is also "curse + 1" means the minimum radius is 400 if you have to worry about blocking at all, but I haven't read it that closely.

It does seem like rift radius is the rough breakpoint between "leaving space open" and "blocking everything"

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-26 16:49:04

The most-cursed player currently has 104 active curses against them (104 distinct people have cursed them w/in the last 7 days).

There are currently 56 people alive on BS2.

Of those people, 13 of them have outstanding curses against the most-cursed player in the game.

For the 3rd-most cursed player, with 32 curses, there are currently 4 curse-holding people online.

So that's pretty good. More than I was expecting. I guess the radius can scale with that number.

But for someone way down the list with only 10 curses, there are currently 0 curse-holding people online. And this is the case that I'm worried about. Bugging 10 people is quite a lot, and this person slips through the cracks.

However, it's interesting that if you bug a bunch of people in a row, those people will still be online, and you'll find you're stuck in d-town for the time being (until enough of those people go offline), so it has a nice soft temporality to it.

I'll do it.

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