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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2019-08-03 20:19:12

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 2,919

Update: Whole New World

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What...a...week!

Thank you all for bearing with me as I continued to adjust and perfect what is now the most massive set of fundamental changes in the history of the game.  Like I said in the last update, we got off to a very rocky start, but by the end of this week, it was almost completely smooth sailing.

Containing all player activity in a bounded area, instead of letting it spread infinitely on the map, revealed all sorts of problems, particularly in terms of resource distribution, settlement locations, and griefing.  On an infinite map, there are always more resources available if you walk far enough in any direction, which is what people used to do to find settlement locations, and you can also easily hide from trouble-makers in the vastness.  A bunch of important features in the game, like fences, were rendered unnecessary by the unbounded map.

So, first up, let's take another look at that now-ancient map generation algorithm.  It placed biomes independently in patches, and there was no structure to that placement.  That meant that the biomes that were useful together, like swamps and grass (a prime settlement location) almost never spawned next to each other.  Finding a prime spot used to require a very long walk.  This also meant that jungles could border the arctic areas.  The independent placement resulted in a lot of map variety, but there were obviously some trade-offs.

The new algorithm uses a more naturalistic topographic layout, with biomes in altitude rings.  This means that each biome always borders the same other two biomes.  Swamps always border grass, for example.  Now prime settlement locations are all over the place.  I also added per-biome likelihood controls, so the really-necessary biomes can be more common---they have wider topographic bands.  Finally, I classified three biomes as "special":  arctic, desert, and jungle.  These aren't needed quite as much as the others--they're only needed for advanced tech---and it's more interesting if they are far-flung on the map.  They don't occur in regular topographic rings, but instead at the centers of each topographic peak.

This one change resulted in a dramatic improvement in the survival rates of settlements on the map.  Suddenly, the bounded arc area became quite livable.  Even better, the old long walks to find a settlement location were gone.

Living close together highlighted a bunch of new problems.  Families often live in the same village for generations, yet are still logically separate due to war swords and inability to curse each other.  After many generations together, they might even speak a common language.  At that point, they really are one village.

Now, if you can curse someone in a language they understand, it will work, whether or not they are in your family.  And elders from two families can declare PEACE to each other, as long as it's in an understood language, thus disabling the war swords.  They can also declare WAR to each other again later if need be.  Note that both these features also work before you learn a common language across generations if you do the work to actually type the other family's language.

Now that people live near each other, fences are everywhere.  This is good.  Towns are more interesting with fences.  However, rogue fences can also be a problem.  The idea with fences is that they homestead unclaimed land with a waiting period to ensure local consensus.  But what about out in the wilderness?  In an infinite map, it's all unclaimed land, but in a finite map, it might need to be used by someone in the future.  A fence bisecting a large wilderness area is a real problem.  The 2-hour decay period for an abandoned fence is too long in this context.  So, I've given you a way to remove a fence, with the help of an elder and a brief waiting period.  The idea here is that you'll only be able to remove abandoned fences, because of the waiting period.  If someone cares about the fence, they will intervene and cancel your removal notice.

And regarding resources, the only non-renewable so far that has been a real problem has been iron.  So I've given you a high tech way to produce more iron by burning oil.  Iron never runs out now, but oil is finite, so there still is an eventual limit.  Those diesel mining outposts are extremely valuable, both in terms of production and the expensive capital improvements that are installed there.

The goal in all of this is to enable a collective challenge:  How long can you all survive together before civilization collapses globally?  The most recent record was 44 hours.  But there's enough oil on the map to support farming for 100 people for at least ten days.  I'm guessing that 44 hours is just the beginning, and you'll all be gradually getting the hang of it over time.

It took a while to come together, but this really does feel like a wholly new and improved game.  There's something going on at any moment in this world now.  There's a story to tell.

Welcome to IMPULSE FOLLY.

And with that I'm off on a two-week vacation with my family.  There will be no updates for the next two weeks.

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#2 2019-08-03 21:10:59

InSpace
Member
Registered: 2018-03-02
Posts: 436

Re: Update: Whole New World

The new map: cool
The rest: eh

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#3 2019-08-03 21:30:13

seth
Member
Registered: 2018-02-28
Posts: 55

Re: Update: Whole New World

awesome work!

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#4 2019-08-03 21:42:54

Amon
Member
From: Under your bed
Registered: 2019-02-17
Posts: 558

Re: Update: Whole New World

I got to play today and I have to say it was an overwhelmingly nice life with only one child dying early. (From a raider or griefer.)
We did end up having ever griefers.
But that's all for now.

Last edited by Amon (2019-08-03 21:44:43)


My favourite all time lives are Unity Dawn, who was married to Sachin Gedeon.
If you get named Siddhartha or Shamon, it was probably me. If the name is arabic it was probably me too. I don't like giving kids common/boring/mundane names.

PIES 2.0 <- Pie diversification mod

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#5 2019-08-03 22:29:03

Thaulos
Member
Registered: 2019-02-19
Posts: 274

Re: Update: Whole New World

What a week indeed.

Well done Jason!

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#6 2019-08-03 23:16:40

Guppy
Member
Registered: 2019-03-14
Posts: 181

Re: Update: Whole New World

On Paper, this seems to fix most of the problems! Im exited to see how this developes

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#7 2019-08-04 05:32:42

antking:]#
Member
Registered: 2018-12-29
Posts: 302

Re: Update: Whole New World

wait how do you declare peace/war do you say WAR (famillyname)


"hear how the wind begins to whisper, but now it screams at me" said ashe

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#8 2019-08-04 11:37:34

wondible
Member
Registered: 2018-04-19
Posts: 308

Re: Update: Whole New World

antking:]# wrote:

wait how do you declare peace/war do you say WAR (famillyname)

Same way, one of each elder say WAR such that the other can understand it, at least as I understand it.


https://onemap.wondible.com/ -- https://wondible.com/ohol-family-trees/ -- https://wondible.com/ohol-name-picker/
Custom client with edge push, autorun, click priority tweaks, shiver/sweat, time hints, name completion, emotion keys, and interaction keys

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#9 2019-08-04 19:17:09

ollj
Member
Registered: 2019-06-15
Posts: 529

Re: Update: Whole New World

gradient mak is much better, makes many things simpler and more natural.

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#10 2019-08-04 22:13:04

Angel Carrillo
Member
Registered: 2018-04-10
Posts: 224

Re: Update: Whole New World

Jason - a question - will we get a way to kill mosquito swarms?

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#11 2019-08-05 12:51:52

lowdt
Member
Registered: 2018-10-27
Posts: 30

Re: Update: Whole New World

stop trying to fix player behavior by changing the things around them... it will be and endless circle and you end up in distress.. i personally hate these borders.. now everything feels even more flat and its like im playing on a small peace of paper..

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#12 2019-08-06 20:10:11

testo
Member
Registered: 2019-05-12
Posts: 226

Re: Update: Whole New World

These updates are literally killing it.


Tomato, onion and pepper are fixed. Thank you J.

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#13 2019-08-08 03:45:54

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 1,191

Re: Update: Whole New World

jasonrohrer wrote:

A bunch of important features in the game, like fences, were rendered unnecessary by the unbounded map.

No, fences around towns were NOT important.  The people who purchased the game didn't really mind not having to use them.  And now, people don't like them much since they've expereinced boxed in towns from what I hear also.

Additionally, having fences around town signals that griefing levels are high.  The whole idea of fenced in towns is thus completely wrongheaded, because high levels of griefing doesn't dovetail with player enjoyment.

Also, the so-called unbounded map had the potential to handle a much larger playerbase (and they could survive).  That can't happen now.  This makes for a serious deficit in the vision of the game.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Now that people live near each other, fences are everywhere.  This is good.  Towns are more interesting with fences.

No, again it can lead to permanently boxed in towns.  And it also signals that griefing levels are high signaling lower player enjoyment levels.  Plenty of people are saying this.  Some have quit.  And you haven't listened, nor observed people's behavior.

jasonrohrer wrote:

It took a while to come together, but this really does feel like a wholly new and improved game.

Your feelings are not the reactions of those who have purchased the game.  You confuse them at your own loss.


jasonrohrer wrote:

There's something going on at any moment in this world now.  There's a story to tell.

Stories which people on the forums have told to basically say that the rift idea isn't working out.  If you find it interesting that your game has gotten substantially worse according to people who have purchased them, then it's interesting, but only in that case.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-08-12 00:29:19)

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#14 2019-08-08 09:34:51

JonySky
Member
From: Catalunya
Registered: 2018-05-13
Posts: 372
Website

Re: Update: Whole New World

Jason, you talk about an improved game,
I see a game with repeated lives once after another in the same cities and towns
By enclosing ourselves in the crack, you have limited a map, limited the respawn of Eves, resources and most importantly ... to limited the number of cities

this update repeats the experience of living again and again in the same cities, the only thing that changes is my family's last name or my skin color
when I am born in a city, I know exactly the location of other cities
It tires me to live on a limited map, depleted of resources and explored several times

With the old OHOL, I remember living lives as an explorer on horseback (I loved it), all we needed was a map to complete little by little!

Being born again doesn't feel fresh anymore ... as before

I think I understand where you want to go by locking us in a limited place, but I don't think it's a good idea to suffocate us in a cube, with this you will only get: repetition again and again

I think you should value another solution for this (dynamic maps that are resolved as you explore can be very effective for trade and wars)

you should look more at the history of today's civilization ... you will discover that exploration and navigation have been vital to the development of our history

A Goal without a plan is just a wish

Last edited by JonySky (2019-08-08 10:13:10)


A person is smart. People are dumb, it is a scary and dangerous animal.
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#15 2019-08-08 20:46:01

apereason
Member
Registered: 2019-01-03
Posts: 58

Re: Update: Whole New World

Nobody seems to be noticing that fences are removable by elders. Any town big enough to support living is big enough to create paper to take down the fence.

Also if you don't like the changes to the game, It's not your game, plus older versions are always on github available for server hosting if it's that much of a problem to you.

Last edited by apereason (2019-08-08 20:48:42)

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#16 2019-08-08 22:38:15

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 1,191

Re: Update: Whole New World

apereason wrote:

Also if you don't like the changes to the game, It's not your game, plus older versions are always on github available for server hosting if it's that much of a problem to you.

This amounts to saying that no one should have any criticism of the game.  It's silly, shortsighted, and shallow.  Especially since reviews exist, and people go play other things, because of complaints not only not getting addressed, but getting ridiculed by a game designer with delusions of grandeur.

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#17 2019-08-09 18:35:32

AlzWell
Member
Registered: 2018-08-13
Posts: 2

Re: Update: Whole New World

So I have been playing for a while now.  Every update comes with ups and downs.  I loved this game when it first came out.  I looked forward to every update with anticipation.  NOW...well the love is gone. 

I feel all boarding us in did was create an opportunity for griefers to rule the world. 

I have been fenced into a town by outsiders.  I have been locked into a building by towers in front of the doors.  Went back with a pickax and now can't even knock down the stone walls.  I have been killed repeatedly life after life.  There is no wilderness, no refuge for those of us that just like to play.   

There are no more Juniper Trees, thus no more fire.   

Not sure if this logic was added to your restart.  If there is no fire we can't create an airplane to traverse the rift.  Nor can we forge the material necessary to do so.  Nor can we get fuel or water.   I get it is your game.  But really I paid for a game and now the game I purchased is no longer available.  And no I am not tech enough to mod or go to other places to sort out a server as recommended above. 

I miss the world I once knew as One Hour One Life.

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#18 2019-08-09 20:26:24

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 281

Re: Update: Whole New World

I was somewhat hopeful when this update was announced. I thought Jason was actually beginning to listen. I was an idiot for thinking that clearly. The current arc is just a murder fest wasteland. Reset it already Jason! There is no hope for this current arc, not even any juniper trees, which means no fires.

At the next arc if you don’t wanna reset it yourself at least make sure that enough nosajs spawn in the rift for the apocalypse to be possible.

The game is a big freaking mess now and I refuse to play on the main server until this shit is resolved.

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#19 2019-08-09 22:58:30

testo
Member
Registered: 2019-05-12
Posts: 226

Re: Update: Whole New World

sigmen4020 wrote:

I was somewhat hopeful when this update was announced. I thought Jason was actually beginning to listen. I was an idiot for thinking that clearly. The current arc is just a murder fest wasteland. Reset it already Jason! There is no hope for this current arc, not even any juniper trees, which means no fires.

At the next arc if you don’t wanna reset it yourself at least make sure that enough nosajs spawn in the rift for the apocalypse to be possible.

The game is a big freaking mess now and I refuse to play on the main server until this shit is resolved.

I lost all hope when Jason proposed a 500x500 tile map saying how big it was and how you couldn´t reach every tile in a lifetime. Then he started making calculations about oil and iron. I became completely aware that he doesn´t understand his own game from a player´s perspective. He doesn´t play it and he doesn´t care about players.


Tomato, onion and pepper are fixed. Thank you J.

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#20 2019-08-10 12:23:03

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 985

Re: Update: Whole New World

Big changes with this update, we went from separate villages that had rarely interactions, to a map where villages are reachable easily and even connected by roads.

Now actions have more consequences and dont feel meaningless like before with villages gone the next day.

This brings a lot of possibilities for future updates and later tech to have more advanced civilisations, more interesting interactions between lineages and a long term challenge that goes beyond taking care of your family/village.

Yes there are still issues notably with the reset condition which isn't good currently and also issues with building griefing and just griefing in general.

But i take that over villages that continuously reset after less than a day and almost no possibilities to connect villages and interact with other families .

Also these issues are probably going to be main priority for the upcomming updates.

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#21 2019-08-10 15:53:09

Saolin
Member
Registered: 2019-05-22
Posts: 174

Re: Update: Whole New World

This current rift is actually developing in surprising way to me. Things have sort of stabilized into a few workable towns, and I'm surprised by the longevity of these villages. I'm still not thrilled with ease of permanently griefing things that take a lot more work to set up than to permanently ruin, or the constant murderfests. I actually am interested to see how it continues to develop, though there is definitely things that need to be worked on.

Last edited by Saolin (2019-08-10 16:04:46)

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#22 2019-08-10 16:28:40

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 1,261

Re: Update: Whole New World

If there's one thing this experiment has shown it is that there are a few key things that are vitally important for tech tree advancement and super easy to intentionally destroy completely.

This could be at least partially resolved by adding multiple pathways to advancement.  There shouldn't be only ONE way to start a fire.    There shouldn't be only one way to make a piece of string.   There shouldn't be only one way to make a long straight shaft.    There shouldn't be only one way to make compost.   These are very basic things that should be possible to achieve in more than one way or by more advanced means once you get passed the stone age.

This game has an incredibly vast and intricate tech tree, but there are certain choke-points that exist purely because it is a game and for no other logical reason.   On a limited resource map, it becomes impossible to ignore that it is the game design itself that is the problem when it is possible for someone to run around the map and kill every wild sheep, chop down every juniper tree, and pick every milkweed.   This isn't an example of poor resource management or inefficient crafting.   It isn't even a question of everything getting used up over time ... certain things are still very plentiful and renewable, like rabbits, cactus fruit and berries, while other things are completely gone, like wild squash, bananas, and carrots.

It is sort of interesting to see what specific things are most vulnerable to griefing.    But if nothing gets done to FIX these vulnerabilities, I don't see the point of accumulating the knowledge or repeating the experiment over and over.    It's not fun or interesting to play toward inevitable failure.

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#23 2019-08-10 23:31:16

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 1,191

Re: Update: Whole New World

Dodge wrote:

This brings a lot of possibilities for future updates and later tech to have more advanced civilisations, more interesting interactions between lineages and a long term challenge that goes beyond taking care of your family/village.

No, it doesn't bring anymore possibilities.  It doesn't create new game code or change the old code so that technology works differently.

Dodge wrote:

But i take that over villages that continuously reset after less than a day and almost no possibilities to connect villages and interact with other families .

That's only because they get seen more.  Jason could have made it so that villages wouldn't get wiped by the server.  Remember how he changed one week to 8 hours on a server having at least 15 people?

Also, with respect to the 'interesting' comment, that's just your taste.  The decline in numbers implies that the game has become less interesting in any sense which resembles objectivity.

As I write this, it's 7:30 P. M. on a Saturday evening.  43 people are playing on bs2, and the numbers looked similar on Friday night.  That's a lot less than even a week previously as I recall.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-08-10 23:31:49)

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#24 2019-08-14 20:21:17

Anandamide
Member
Registered: 2018-06-05
Posts: 142

Re: Update: Whole New World

apereason wrote:

Nobody seems to be noticing that fences are removable by elders. Any town big enough to support living is big enough to create paper to take down the fence.

Also if you don't like the changes to the game, It's not your game, plus older versions are always on github available for server hosting if it's that much of a problem to you.

I never wanted a dislike button on this forum until I read this comment

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