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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 Re: Main Forum » Building Planning and project area tools » 2019-05-23 15:11:59

There would be a limit to one claimed area per person and the area would become unclaimed if you died. This way you could also use your one claimed area to set down things you wanted to use like rabbits so people would know if those are rabbits you wanted to use for yourself.

Sometimes I wonder how long some unskinned rabbits have been sitting on the edge of town, like will I be taking someones backpack materials, or did my great great great  granduncle catch them for the town

#2 Main Forum » Building Planning and project area tools » 2019-05-23 14:52:39

Buggy
Replies: 3

With all this talk about buildings it seems like easy ways to plan a building is something that keeps being brought up.
We need something in game to help with planning out buildings. Something like stakes that allows you to mark out the entire layout of a building beforehand. It is difficult in game to explain how you want to build something and people could help more easily if they know how you want the building to look. We can already do this in game with enough stakes but I never see anyone using them for this. Ideally a building planning tool would be cheap and really easy to remove like chalk lines on the ground.

Another idea that could help with this is project areas. An area you can claim maybe with chalk that no one else can put items down in. ideally this could be instantly broken by anyone, the area boundary wouldn't take up any space, and it would not block movement. Just a way in game you could quickly mark out one small area (max one 8*8) to say hey I am working here please leave the tools etc. and don't clutter the area.

#3 Re: Main Forum » Make Killing not the only option, Interracial Marriages! » 2019-05-22 16:55:13

Having the families further apart from one another again would also help. Families competing for resources makes it harder for everyone to survive while having your family spread out in lots of cities across the map (maybe through marriage) would make it so your line is more likely to survive.

If one city fails your family line could live on in another town. Spreading out also means you can avoid area ban so there are already in game reasons to do this.

#4 Re: Main Forum » The Murderous Starr Family » 2019-05-22 14:23:08

If you are playing the game to make your family lineage last as long as possible you should always kill nearby families and block off the eve spawns nearby.

There is no reason other than it feels bad to kill helpful nice players to keep another family in your village.
First of all there is the inevitable fact that they will have a bad kid who will kill your family with swords if they have the chance, secondly whether or not they are aggressive to your family two families will use the resources in the area faster then if you just have one. This makes it harder for your family to last long term.

Irl humans have many reasons to work together with people from different families and cultures, there are biological reasons, economic reasons, technological reasons, educational reasons, etc. Also people from other cultures are not more dangerous than people from your own.

In one hour one life however Jason has created a species that reproduces asexually and doesn't need genetic diversity to succeed undercutting the original biological reason humans are altruistic to outsiders in the first place. We are more like a bacteria or a beehive then humans. A beehive will kill other queen bees to make sure their genetics survive. Virgins Queen bees kill all of the other virgin queens in the hive, they do not share the hive with another laying queen they don't need more bees then they can produce themselves.

In OHOL you can probably justify keeping males from other families if they look helpful (since they are sterile), but if you are playing to try to make the longest living lineage then there is no reason to keep other families in the area alive.

#5 Re: Main Forum » Does being (randomly) murdered make you want to play the game more? » 2019-05-19 15:32:11

I don't like being randomly murdered if I could do nothing to prevent it. Unfortunately this seems to be how Jason wants a random murder to be unstoppable. Right now if someone with a bow drawn or blade out comes onto my screen while I am farming I automatically start running in circles then look for weapons to defend. Often if the attacker puts down the weapon to eat I can grab it. It is hilarious when they start asking for the arrow or knife back when they were obviously going to kill someone with it.
,
Dieing when I have no defense is sad though like when I am a baby and I am shot by someone or I am focused on a task and alt tabbed to onetec and am stabbed. It makes lives feel cheap and it is frustrating when you are trying to learn something. There may not be materials available to learn that process in the next life. This happened with me and photo paper I tried hard to get all the items together and started the process but then was killed randomly in two lives so I got frustrated and stopped trying to take pictures there are only so many villages with the black fabric ready.

#6 Re: Main Forum » Why do towns need walls? » 2019-05-19 14:51:30

I think in order for a towns to always need walls there has to be a constant outside threat to balance the effort of making guarding and maintaining the walls. To me this feral eves just isn't enough of a threat to counter the downsides of town wall building.
Also the threat has to be dumb like an AI animal that attacks (for example we fence mosquitos it is worth the effort). If the threat is other people they will always find ways around the walls, and if to counter that Jason makes wall impossible to breach people will get bored of attacking towns and stop which makes the walls useless again.

#7 Re: Main Forum » Why do towns need walls? » 2019-05-19 06:14:04

Dodge wrote:

There are no walls in modern society?

Try living in another country without the proper paperwork, you will get kicked out fast.

There are maybe no literal walls but there is definitly a limit between each country.

Maybe at some point in OHOL we will have borders, laws, prison etc. But right now if you want to protect something you better put it behind some fence or wall.

Jason wants literal walls around advanced cities though not borders. And this is part of the confusion is each family town supposed to represent an entire country? All we have in our towns is one or two families and one kitchen. Each town is more like a large house than a country.

#8 Re: Main Forum » Why do towns need walls? » 2019-05-19 03:55:12

This is the quote I was thinking about from Jason found in "Jason's vision" Forum thread by mr.bah

jasonrohrer wrote:

Did you watch the trailer?

I'm killed at the end of my own trailer by a defensive robot who was guarding a city gate.

What made you think it was going to be an entirely peaceful game?

There's also a lot of peaceful stuff going on in that trailer, of course.


But there are other things in that trailer that you currently don't see very much of in the game.  Buildings.  City walls and gates.  Specialization.

Take a look at this spot in the trailer:

https://youtu.be/mT4JktcVQuE?t=1m36s

It's currently STILL very misleading:

1.  You see an old man inside a building baking pies.  Kids run out, and then he closes the door behind them.  (I've never seen anyone baking pies indoors, nor have I seen many people closing doors.)

2.  (1:45) You see me walk into a walled village, through what looks like a village gate.  (Even before property fences, you almost never saw walls around a village.)

3.  (1:47)  You see me walk past three specialists who are operating in three different well-defined spaces.  Two are enclosed, but one is out in the open because it's too hot to do indoors. (You rarely see spaces in the game structured by walls).

4.  (1:50)  You see me walk past a sheep herder inside a fenced-in area (you almost never see real fences used for sheep).


That portion of the video shows stuff that is all 100% possible inside the game right now (it was possible at launch).  After that, I go into the "future" part of the video.

So a player, seeing 1-4 in the video, might expect to encounter those things in the game.  You know, they might expect to see something that looks like a real village.  But those things never occur in the game.


My vision for the game is to have those things occurring in the game, almost always.


Many people have said, "Those things are too hard, so that's why we don't do them.  Make walls cheaper, and then we'll build buildings."

But that's not it at all.  There are plenty of cheap things in the game that you rarely do.  And there are plenty of crazy-hard things in the game that you do almost always, in every village.  Getting a Newcomen pump up and running is no joke, but every village has one.  And whoa, Newcomen machine shops everywhere too now?  I hadn't seen many of them for a while...


You don't build buildings or walls or gates in the game for one simple reason:  YOU DON'T NEED THEM.


My vision for the game is to actually make you need such things.

To need specialization, and buildings, and walls, and gates, and trade, and businesses, and laws, and judges, and police, and guards, and hospitals, and restaurants, and shepherds, and weavers, and smiths, and millers, and soldiers.  To have nurseries and orphanages.  To have roads and outposts.  To have airplanes and cargo cults.


My vision for the game is to actually make you need civilization.

...

He says a bit more but just notice he mentioned gates and fences quite a few times so he really wants walled cities for this game

#9 Main Forum » Why do towns need walls? » 2019-05-19 03:37:25

Buggy
Replies: 13

From reading some of the forum posts I understand that Jason wants towns to be walled.
I just don't understand why.
In history yes people built walls there are castles and forts and even cities that had walls. However I don't know of any modern cities that are walled where I live (Canada). The only walled places are military bases and prisons not really places I would want to live. What time period are we supposed to be in that we need walls to keep out barbarians but we can use an airplane to fly across the map.

Is each family line supposed to represent a different country in Jasons vision?
I mean the American border is kind of a boundary, this has security at the bridges but the boundary is mostly just lakes that anyone could boat over. It is not a hard wall that people can't cross. Just a boundary that was decided a long time ago (The war of 1912) since then it has remained mostly wall free.

Cities and towns located in the middle of a country simply don't need walls, they are a huge expense and they would just make travel more difficult. 

As for the game right now, yes walls can keep feral eves out but they also make resource collection slower, maybe just fence the forges if you are worried about someone stealing your iron and leave the gate open. Oh and make nearby springs into wells!

#10 Re: Main Forum » Eves are barbarian menaces, please fix. » 2019-05-18 16:10:43

DestinyCall wrote:

One thing I would strongly suggest - don't just kill every Eve on sight.     This actually makes the problem worse.    Wait to see if the Eve is feral before assuming she will be a problem.   If you kill an Eve, she will respawn nearby.   If she finds your village again, she is more likely to be hostile BECAUSE you just killed her.   

So prepare for hostile Eves and be watchful of everyone in the village (anyone can be a griefer).    But do not just start killing anyone who visits your town.   

I also strongly encourage people to utilize nearby springs by turning them into wells and starting small farms if the area is viable.  This can significantly reduce water pressure in your main town and help move your farms closer to a renewable source of water, which reduces long-term labor costs.     And it pushes Eve spawns further away from your village center.

It makes me sad that this is the case but a friendly eve will eventually have a murderous descendant. It is inevitable. You can exist peacefully for generations but then one of your or their kids will be bad and the murderfest will start.
If you can tell who the bad apples are you may be able to get their family to curse the offender (If there is enough of them who are old enough) but it is much more difficult then just having a monoculture.

There is no real in game benefit to having a mixed family town only drawbacks I wish the game didn't push this attitude, I really like the language stuff it is fun.

#11 Re: Main Forum » If fences are not viable, what does that mean? » 2019-05-18 15:22:29

Opening doors is definately a huge part of why enclosed buildings are annoying. Is there a way it could be changed so characters would autopath through doors and fence gates without having to click to open them? (I want my character to open and close the door without me having to click them)

The reason sheep pens never have gates and the reason people get angry and take off all the doors of a building is that it is extra work for basically no reward. I would like to use fence gates for pens but you click once to open it and all the sheep run out or you can build an airlock which requires two clicks to get in and out. Berry corners allow you to just walk in and out without any work on your part.

If gates worked as well as berry corners I would always build gates. If it is possible this would be a huge quality of life improvement.

#12 Re: Main Forum » Eves are barbarian menaces, please fix. » 2019-05-18 14:48:44

You have a few options to deal with the dangerous feral eves:
1: kill them before the kill you, set up a town guard with a bow that shoots all outsiders sad
2: build a city wall/ cage for your village
3: turn all the springs nearby into wells to prevent close eve spawns
4: build cages around the eve spawns to trap eves. This is more difficult since Jason patched but you can still do it.  A 7*7 cage centered on the spring will catch most spawns and a 16*16 will trap all eves that spawns at that area.

I only like option 3 personally but these are probably your only options till at least monday.

#13 Re: Main Forum » Jason's Vision » 2019-05-18 01:26:16

If there were some things in game that could only be built inside that may help. Like an electric stove ,space heater , or a baby bed that would keep infants at the perfect temperature if it was indoors. Things that wouldn't work outdoors that would improve our lives if we built them.

#14 Re: Main Forum » How to make swords balanced » 2019-05-18 00:40:04

futurebird wrote:
Buggy wrote:

I see the cooldown on killing someone with a knife as symbolic of the fact that someone would fight back if they were being murdered. If someone attacks another person with a knife even if that person is unarmed they will fight back. Even if the victim doesn't hurt the attacker back it will still take much more effort than using a knife to cut bread. In the game the process takes the same amount of effort as chasing down a loose horsecart.
In dungeons and dragons even a barbarian can be taken down by enough unarmed kobolds. The sword just needs to be balanced so if enough people want to stop it they can regardless of their tech level.

What if, when you are holding a sword you can be hit with ANY tool. So with a hoe, a shovel, an adz, anything. If you are hit 3 times, or 5 times with tools you die.

Hahaha! I like this alot smile The villagers all running at a hostile with hoes and adzes everyone can join in give the kids a Sauerkraut Stomper!
Basically making it so if someone is being aggressive we have a chance to defend ourselves with what we have. (like the rock in rust Jason tongue)

#15 Re: Main Forum » How to make swords balanced » 2019-05-18 00:29:52

I see the cooldown on killing someone with a knife as symbolic of the fact that someone would fight back if they were being murdered. If someone attacks another person with a knife even if that person is unarmed they will fight back. Even if the victim doesn't hurt the attacker back it will still take much more effort than using a knife to cut bread. In the game the process takes the same amount of effort as chasing down a loose horsecart.
In dungeons and dragons even a barbarian can be taken down by enough unarmed kobolds. The sword just needs to be balanced so if enough people want to stop it they can regardless of their tech level.

#16 Re: Main Forum » If fences are not viable, what does that mean? » 2019-05-18 00:10:14

In rust you build to protect your stuff and yourself from other players. (And because buildings can look cool) In real life I don't live indoors solely for those reasons.
The primary reason for living indoors (especially in Canada) is the weather, the second is that it protects my things ... not from other people but from nature. Clothes and food don't last to long on the lawn.

In one hour one life I don't care about protecting my things from other people so the rust approach of locking up everything is really heavy handed. Why should I care about protecting my stuff from other players if we are supposed to be working together?

The main problem with buildings in this game is the space they take up, one whole tile per block. This is the same as minecraft and people obviously love building in that game right? However building in minecraft protects you against mobs and is very easy to do. Where in this game it only blocks movement takes up space and provides little benefit. People still build in this game though once they have enough food and feel safe.

Like someone said we are stuck on level one or two of Maslow's hierarchy of needs if you want to move past this to build for creativity we need to not constantly feel the threat of dying, or you will need to make buildings have a meaningful impact on survival.

#17 Re: Main Forum » Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners? » 2019-05-17 23:41:34

jasonrohrer wrote:
futurebird wrote:

I don’t think if swords stay in or not is a question for a community vote or for me to decide (but if you asked me I’d say get rid of them) Part of creative work is knowing when not to give an audience what they want. I have respect for those kinds of choices. The “red wedding” on GOT was really hated by many fans but it was the kind of good artistic choice that makes a story memorable and important. That said, going for shock value— just because it’s shocking with no real deeper meaning or genre to subvert is juvenile and boring. A lot of Jason’s choices skirt line on this distinction for me. The combination of the race based segregation, swords and language feels like someone it’s trying to stop me from being kind, like I’m being boxed in to a xenophobic stance by game mechanics. I don’t like it because  feel as if I’m being told “oh no what will you sweet little doves do NOW?” —um not enjoy the game as much and die a lot?

I’ve mentioned before that recent changes have lead me to be more detached from the game with all the random murder it is healthiest not to be emotionally invested and let yourself really *feel* the impacts of all the deaths instead I laugh like I did as a teen at dead baby jokes. Nothing wrong with that kind fun but I thought maybe this game was going for something deeper. Now, I don’t know.


Before this week, you almost never interacted with people outside your family.  They were too far away.  You weren't "kind" to them.  You never saw them.  "Xenophobia" or "open-arms" were both impossible.

Now you interact with people outside your family.  Now you have to navigate that.  It could have been so easy and so bland.  Just bring the families together.  But I made it way more complicated than that.  It's not easy, at all, to interact with someone from outside your family.


So nothing about the "old game" has changed.  Family interactions, and the kindness is identical.  You still interact with the same 20 people you always interacted with throughout your life.

What's changed is that a new element has been introduced.  Other families!  But whoa, they look different (as other families actually do), and whoa, they speak a different language (as people from far away actually do).

So the old game had only one element.  The new game has this whole new element.


Those people were always out there, but you never saw them.  Now you see them.  And you don't like what you see, I guess...

The thing is I used to be amazed by how trusting people are of strangers in this game. You don't actually know or love your family in game but we trusted them even though sometimes one would kill. Most of us were working together to build towns.

Sometimes in game I would run into someone with bad English but if they were helpful and wanted to learn we would work together and it felt really nice. Part of the appeal of the game for me has always been overcoming the distrust of random anonymous strangers on the internet.
We used to have villages of different looking characters and sometimes racist things would happen but most of the time the village would fight against it.

Now it feel like the game is pushing us to not trust outsiders on multiple levels, there is no benefit to working together with another family, only negatives so the game is forcing us to be inhospitable to outsiders. In real life working together with other families is what makes a town, if someone killed all their neighbors they wouldn't build a community.

#18 Re: Main Forum » Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners? » 2019-05-17 22:19:03

All people are trying to do is express they are not happy with some of the changes. Most updates all you get is praise for the new items. At least acknowledge a lot of people are unhappy about warswords and the direction it moves the game. You don't have to make changes of course it is your game but people are allowed to be upset. At least try to understand where all the disappointment is coming from.

#19 Re: Main Forum » Jason! it worked » 2019-05-17 21:12:21

jasonrohrer wrote:

Once every two lifetimes, you hand a toddler a rock and tell them to fix all the fences.  Even on a huge perimeter, walking around doing that will take a few minutes at most.

Did you expect to have towns close together without any boundaries?

Did you prefer the old Eve spiral where everyone was so far apart that you never saw another family?  Then at least you could live in peace, without worrying about what players from other families would do.

Yes I preferred it when I could live in peace most of the time.

#20 Re: Main Forum » Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners? » 2019-05-17 18:54:05

Jk Howling wrote:

lol yes having a single person walk in and wipe out an entire family is such a rich dynamic. Having several families that get along perfectly fine until the single bad egg is born and starts stabbing is a totally rich dynamic.

Just out of mild curiosity, have a strawpoll fam. Vote as you will.
https://www.strawpoll.me/18007331


I am interested in this as well I re posted to the discord hopefully we can get some more votes

#21 Re: Main Forum » Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners? » 2019-05-17 15:06:09

I would be interested in a poll about the war sword. Now that everyone has had a week to experience it it seems like a good time. options some thing like :
1: I want the war sword removed from the game
2: The sword would be okay if it was balanced better
3: I like the sword it makes the game more fun for me

#22 Re: Main Forum » How do you make the most of a life in a decayed town? » 2019-05-17 14:58:36

We were able to pull eves into the tutorial area after the server reset with the new eve spawning.

As far as making the most of life in a decayed town I find if you are up to organizing it can revive an area. If you organize the kitchen it gets swarmed by bakers, if you clean the farms and bring the tools next to it people will start farming again. I know cleaning isn't very fun but it can be satisfying when you see someone get to work because they know what to do now. Take the clutter out of town move tools next to where they are needed, neaten up the farms and sheep pen, and watch as the town gets back to work. Also I like telling people they are doing a good job so they know that their work is appreciated .

#23 Re: Main Forum » Life of War... Peace is rare. » 2019-05-17 14:43:48

If an Eve spawns next to a large town they can't build their own town like they probably wanted. An Eve has very little to lose by just picking up a sword and trying to kill all the townspeople. They can't talk to people in town, they probably wanted to play early game if they were an eve and now they have to play in a messy city with a bunch of half finished projects and clutter. Eves are trapped into playing near cities now unless they want to run for 20 minutes towards the wilds.

I played a couple of games normally yesterday after the update and the level of violence has definitely gone up. If you are in a town with a high population there are tons of murders for no reason (outside and within the family) I felt on edge the whole time even though I was just making compost that we desperately needed. I don't use curse tokens anymore because I can't tell who the griefers are everyone looks the same and people don't seem to care if someone is a murderer.

#24 Re: Main Forum » /die baby bones delete items left on the ground. » 2019-05-17 06:46:13

Okay so we need to make pens to keep the babies in preferably full of garbage and make sure not to cloth them. Got it

#25 Re: Main Forum » Proposal: Off Topic Sub-Forum » 2019-05-17 02:05:04

This is a great idea! I would like the non-game related nonsense moved elsewhere.

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