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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2019-05-17 02:43:27

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

If members of a family get accepted in a town should their futur generations still be able to kill (or be killed by) everyone in town from the other family?

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#2 2019-05-17 02:49:46

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

The sword should kill anyone including family OR just not be in the game. IMO. I don't like magic.


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#3 2019-05-17 03:01:25

Tarr
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 1,546

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

futurebird wrote:

...just not be in the game.

The most reasonable choice by far.


Days peppers/onions/tomatoes left unfixed: 103

Do your part and remind Jason to fix these damn vegetables.

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#4 2019-05-17 03:17:55

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,130

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

Not a fan of the war sword.   Better off without it.

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#5 2019-05-17 03:45:48

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,781

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

End the war sword.  Honestly, what value does it have in a game that is supposed to be about parenting and civilization building?  None.  None at all.

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#6 2019-05-17 03:57:52

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

Oh, you will want swords and even firearms when the neighbor village steals all you iron/steel,oil,pies and threathens to kill women and children if you do anything.

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#7 2019-05-17 04:01:56

RodneyC86
Member
Registered: 2019-05-11
Posts: 467

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

Spoonwood wrote:

End the war sword.  Honestly, what value does it have in a game that is supposed to be about parenting and civilization building?  None.  None at all.

No man, war is a condition of human civilization. Like it or not, humans are a war-like race. Even monkeys( or is it chimps?) are known to wage war between groups.

And in war times, parenting is even more important,

" Enemies have breached through our walls, a dozen raiders are approaching the town nursery. With me, my 6 year old daughter, holding our family pet. There is but not time to waste on sentiments, I shoved the dog aside and passed my crossbow to her, and asked her to run away south as far as her little feet can carry, shooting any strange men or women who approach her. Tearfully, I left out the door, to attract the raiders attention from the nursery.... You must live my daughter "


Now having said that....
I really do think this is NOT the right time to introduce wars in this game, someone once said the current population dynamics do not support war or rather, items that allow one person to slay a dozen. It's simply ridiculous that a single person can commit genocide on a family with relatively little effort. In reality, and it should be close to reality at least with regards to war, genocide requires concerted effort from the attacking forces. The current server population cannot sustain this sort of events IMHO

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#8 2019-05-17 04:25:00

Jk Howling
Member
From: Washington State
Registered: 2018-06-16
Posts: 468

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

+1 to removing war swords. We don't need stupidly broken anti-outsider weapons. The original weapons in the game work just fine and are balanced enough to handle other families alongside griefers from within.


-Has ascended to better games-

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#9 2019-05-17 04:32:12

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,724

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

It's not about war, specifically.

It's about interesting and rich dynamics.

Bringing families together (what happened last update for the first time in more than a year) would be pointless if there weren't some rich dynamics.  Otherwise, you'd merge together, and there'd be no gameplay difference between your kids and some other family's kids, just a mouse-over name difference.  One big bland mess from sea to shining sea, with no friction, no texture.

Language and war swords are one example of rich dynamics.  You have to build trust with outsiders on purpose, because they are gameplay different than insiders in very important ways.  You have to try to work with them.  You have to DECIDE to work with them.  It doesn't just happen automatically, or blandly.  You can tell they are really different from your family.  You can feel it.  You can't ignore it.  You need to grapple with it.

A woman came to my town, and she happened to bring a sword with her.  Why did she bring it?  She never used it.  But she kept it with her.  That was interesting.  She did not fully blend in because of that.  There was always a little bit of texture there... Hmm... can we really trust her?  What is she planning to do?  Why does she keep carrying that sword.  She gave us gifts, and she seems friendly, but she never laid down her sword.

If you fail to see how that's an interesting dynamic.... well...


We should have game mechanics worth arguing about.  Worth getting philosophical about.


Even the baby-learning-language feature isn't automatic or bland.  You have to spend time talking around the baby.  The less you talk to them, the less they learn.  You have to think about what new phrases to teach them, and have a plan.  You have to do it on purpose, for a reason.  You have to decide to do it.



And I hope you see what happened here.  With a few rather small changes, we are suddenly playing an entirely different and more interesting game than the one we were playing last week.

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#10 2019-05-17 04:49:26

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

RodneyC86 wrote:

Now having said that....
I really do think this is NOT the right time to introduce wars in this game, someone once said the current population dynamics do not support war or rather, items that allow one person to slay a dozen. It's simply ridiculous that a single person can commit genocide on a family with relatively little effort. In reality, and it should be close to reality at least with regards to war, genocide requires concerted effort from the attacking forces. The current server population cannot sustain this sort of events IMHO

I agree. I think it's a bit too powerful and not really at the same level as the kind of towns we have yet. I wouldn't say "never ever" to swords or other weapons. But maybe not just yet? They are a bit less worrisome since they have been scaled back a bit. And since they can be made back in to pipes the major reason why I didn't like them is gone.

I've been having a lot of fun with the language and closer villages, but the thing where everyone looks the same and you can't tell people apart and the swords not so much.


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#11 2019-05-17 05:32:55

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

jasonrohrer wrote:

It's not about war, specifically.

It's about interesting and rich dynamics.

Bringing families together (what happened last update for the first time in more than a year) would be pointless if there weren't some rich dynamics.  Otherwise, you'd merge together, and there'd be no gameplay difference between your kids and some other family's kids, just a mouse-over name difference.  One big bland mess from sea to shining sea, with no friction, no texture.

Language and war swords are one example of rich dynamics.  You have to build trust with outsiders on purpose, because they are gameplay different than insiders in very important ways.  You have to try to work with them.  You have to DECIDE to work with them.  It doesn't just happen automatically, or blandly.  You can tell they are really different from your family.  You can feel it.  You can't ignore it.  You need to grapple with it.

A woman came to my town, and she happened to bring a sword with her.  Why did she bring it?  She never used it.  But she kept it with her.  That was interesting.  She did not fully blend in because of that.  There was always a little bit of texture there... Hmm... can we really trust her?  What is she planning to do?  Why does she keep carrying that sword.  She gave us gifts, and she seems friendly, but she never laid down her sword.

If you fail to see how that's an interesting dynamic.... well...


We should have game mechanics worth arguing about.  Worth getting philosophical about.


Even the baby-learning-language feature isn't automatic or bland.  You have to spend time talking around the baby.  The less you talk to them, the less they learn.  You have to think about what new phrases to teach them, and have a plan.  You have to do it on purpose, for a reason.  You have to decide to do it.



And I hope you see what happened here.  With a few rather small changes, we are suddenly playing an entirely different and more interesting game than the one we were playing last week.

It is a very interesting dynamic.

What do you think is more interesting regarding swords permission.

Hard restriction depending on family (current system)

or

Any branch of a family that has been accepted in a town after a few generation becomes part of the town and cant be killed with sword BUT since they are now part of the new town maybe they could be able to use the sword against the old town aka the home town of their distant relatives.

So it would be less about family names or skin color (at first sight) and more about who speaks your language, so you wouldnt know right away who can be a potential enemy and only interaction with them would reveal this.

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#12 2019-05-17 07:58:37

wondaland
Member
Registered: 2019-02-18
Posts: 85

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

How about interbreeding? Say a man or woman immigrates to a foreign village and has some way of producing a baby that is connected to BOTH families and cant kill either with the sword. This would take some value away from the sword which, from the influx of complaints may not be so bad, and encourage separate lineage interaction.

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#13 2019-05-17 09:52:18

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,781

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

RodneyC86 wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:

End the war sword.  Honestly, what value does it have in a game that is supposed to be about parenting and civilization building?  None.  None at all.

No man, war is a condition of human civilization. Like it or not, humans are a war-like race. Even monkeys( or is it chimps?) are known to wage war between groups.

No, war isn't a condition of human civilization, since human civilizations can exist without war.  Sure, war happens in human history.  But, OHOL wars are not people playing for the sake of their lineages.

RodneyC86 wrote:

And in war times, parenting is even more important,

" Enemies have breached through our walls, a dozen raiders are approaching the town nursery. With me, my 6 year old daughter, holding our family pet. There is but not time to waste on sentiments, I shoved the dog aside and passed my crossbow to her, and asked her to run away south as far as her little feet can carry, shooting any strange men or women who approach her. Tearfully, I left out the door, to attract the raiders attention from the nursery.... You must live my daughter "

It's not good parenting to tell the child to shoot any strange men or woman.  That's just trying to induce paranoia in a child.

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#14 2019-05-17 10:01:09

RodneyC86
Member
Registered: 2019-05-11
Posts: 467

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

Spoonwood wrote:
RodneyC86 wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:

End the war sword.  Honestly, what value does it have in a game that is supposed to be about parenting and civilization building?  None.  None at all.

No man, war is a condition of human civilization. Like it or not, humans are a war-like race. Even monkeys( or is it chimps?) are known to wage war between groups.

No, war isn't a condition of human civilization, since human civilizations can exist without war.  Sure, war happens in human history.  But, OHOL wars are not people playing for the sake of their lineages.

RodneyC86 wrote:

And in war times, parenting is even more important,

" Enemies have breached through our walls, a dozen raiders are approaching the town nursery. With me, my 6 year old daughter, holding our family pet. There is but not time to waste on sentiments, I shoved the dog aside and passed my crossbow to her, and asked her to run away south as far as her little feet can carry, shooting any strange men or women who approach her. Tearfully, I left out the door, to attract the raiders attention from the nursery.... You must live my daughter "

It's not good parenting to tell the child to shoot any strange men or woman.  That's just trying to induce paranoia in a child.

Ah my sweet summer child. We will protect you don't worry

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#15 2019-05-17 10:08:28

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,781

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

jasonrohrer wrote:

It's not about war, specifically.

It's about interesting and rich dynamics.

It is NOT rich dynamics.  The dynamics are poor.  It's just griefers attacking others and trying to kill them.  If it interests you, that does NOT say anything about how others feel about such.  In particular it does NOT say how your customers feel about it.  I, and others have said now, that we do NOT find such interesting.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Bringing families together (what happened last update for the first time in more than a year) would be pointless if there weren't some rich dynamics.  Otherwise, you'd merge together, and there'd be no gameplay difference between your kids and some other family's kids, just a mouse-over name difference.  One big bland mess from sea to shining sea, with no friction, no texture.

People on the discord are talking about a tutorial town.  I won't feel surprised if people just fly away now.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Language and war swords are one example of rich dynamics.

The dynamics of war swords are poor.  It's JUST a killing tool.  The dynamic of a knife is much richer since it can carve up a turkey, slice bread, slash a rubber tree, cut tule reeds, etc.

jasonrohrer wrote:

You have to build trust with outsiders on purpose, because they are gameplay different than insiders in very important ways.  You have to try to work with them.  You have to DECIDE to work with them.

No, people do NOT have to do that.  People can try to kill them.  And well, they do.

jasonrohrer wrote:

A woman came to my town, and she happened to bring a sword with her.  Why did she bring it?  She never used it.  But she kept it with her.  That was interesting.

Your taste is shallow.  I find little interesting in someone carrying a weapon because they are fearful of outsiders.  Jesus refusing to return a blow is far more interesting than someone carrying a weapon, because she is afraid of getting killed.

jasonrohrer wrote:

  She did not fully blend in because of that.  There was always a little bit of texture there... Hmm... can we really trust her?  What is she planning to do?  Why does she keep carrying that sword.  She gave us gifts, and she seems friendly, but she never laid down her sword.

If you fail to see how that's an interesting dynamic.... well...

Then you are thinking about how a person is just afraid and have something on them which does NOT get used.

jasonrohrer wrote:

And I hope you see what happened here.  With a few rather small changes, we are suddenly playing an entirely different and more interesting game than the one we were playing last week.

No, Jason, the game of bs2 OHOL is NOT more interesting now (not in the way you've said so).  And you are arrogant and simply wrong to try to convince people that they feel more interested because of your changes.  You have NOT been listening.  Tarr has said that he'd stop playing this week.  Buggy said that she wouldn't either.  She decided to STOP twitch streaming OHOL, because otherwise she would be swearing at it.  I have NOT played bs2 OHOL this week, because bs2 OHOL is NOT interesting to me after the introduction of swords.  You can claim otherwise, but it merely shows that you're arrogant and believe that you know people's feelings better than they do.  You don't seem to realize that people do feel differently than you and have minds of their own.

You spoke of philosophical argument.  Well, Jason, philosophical REQUIRES that people think differently on things.  Aesthetics is not something where everyone will feel the same way about, and it's a matter of taste.  Thus your entire claim about "the game being more interesting" ends up false since you insist on objective terms and you refuse to acknowledge that people have different minds than you.  That isn't the method of a philosopher who invites argument.  It's the method of a proselytizer who wants followers with closed minds.

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#16 2019-05-17 11:24:29

RedComb
Member
Registered: 2019-05-11
Posts: 57

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

Finally tried to play some again tonight. I think about 75% of the lives I had were going smoothly until

1) a strange Eve would arrive, blend in, and ultimately go on a murdering spree
2) a mixed town would be humming along peacefully until a bad egg baby would start chaos and everything would descend into murder

My very last game, I was Sweden Swedenburg in a settlement where many Archers had showed up and integrated well. I noticed an Eve Wang show up and tried to tell others about her and to keep an eye on her, but her character model made her blend in.

She seemed to be playing normally, feeding the sheep, so I let it go because I had seen other non-lineage players do the same thing, but then out of nowhere she started murdering people.

I had a knife on me and me and another person (an Archer) chased her around.

I got lucky and managed to stab Eve Wang, then some old Archer granny who spoke nothing but gibberish picked up Eve Wang's war sword and stabbed me. Eve Wang smiled as we both died. Infuriating.

This is not fun. It is aggravating as hell that 3/4's of every village I played descended into this Mad Max Thunderdome bullshit.

I'll check back into this game in a month to see if anything has changed for the better because this is 100% shit and I for one don't find "Frustration the Game" fun to play.

If this is what counts for "more interesting," then you can shove interesting up you smug, condescending ass!

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#17 2019-05-17 11:39:21

JonySky
Member
From: Catalunya
Registered: 2018-05-13
Posts: 635
Website

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

The swords generate stories ... some incredible! other horrible!
I believe that the swords are balanced in many ways ...

it is true that a single person can create a massacre in a village
but it is also true that there are many ways to avoid this kind of bad situations

1.- It is time to create hospitals in conditions and have doctors assigned
2.- property fences avoid many dangers (animals and people)
3.- create several knives or have a bow near
4.- vigilantes

War awakens the ingenuity of societies (like it or not)

The game has changed and I think that people should also change the way they play OHOL
before the update there was no challenge other than building and crafting objects again and again ...
Now we can continue doing the same as before ... but now we have to be prepared for a possible attack

In the video that someone published this week about the war swords commenting how catastrophic they were:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYdtRkFFIw

I did not understand what the people were doing around that guy armed with a sword in their hands
people were picking berries or raising their babies right there while that guy was killing everyone around him
logically that guy did not need much effort to kill the entire town ...

If you see someone with a sword in their hands and you discover that it is not of your lineage ... flee or strike back because it may be the end ...
but do not stand still by the fire raising your children ... because you will be the first to die

Last edited by JonySky (2019-05-17 12:04:34)

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#18 2019-05-17 11:47:22

CatX
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2019-02-11
Posts: 439

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

What if you had to wage war before the magic sword would work?
And if the families through some ritual ended the war, the sword would stop working?

I do like the idea of adoption though. If a person is adopted into a family, they and their babies can no longer be killed by the sword, nor can they kill others of the same family.

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#19 2019-05-17 12:09:36

CatX
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2019-02-11
Posts: 439

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

... Waging war could work like this:

You have a war sword. It can't be used against anyone.
But then a person from a different family kills someone in your family with bow or knife. They can still not kill you with war swords, but you can attack anyone in their family with yours. You can wipe out their entire clan if you wish.
But, the moment you kill someone from their family with your war sword, now their war swords are activated, and they can kill anyone from your family.

There could be a note on the screen of every family member: "Currently at war with the Johnsons."

Last edited by CatX (2019-05-17 12:10:39)

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#20 2019-05-17 12:12:35

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

CatX wrote:

... Waging war could work like this:

You have a war sword. It can't be used against anyone.
But then a person from a different family kills someone in your family with bow or knife. They can still not kill you with war swords, but you can attack anyone in their family with yours. You can wipe out their entire clan if you wish.
But, the moment you kill someone from their family with your war sword, now their war swords are activated, and they can kill anyone from your family.

There could be a note on the screen of every family member: "Currently at war with the Johnsons."

As long as the swords are basically magic because they can't be used on everyone I see no reason not to do this. If someone starts a conflict with a bow or knife you can escalate to sword. But once you have done that the door to that kind of violence is open in both directions.


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#21 2019-05-17 12:40:29

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,781

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

RedComb wrote:

I'll check back into this game in a month to see if anything has changed for the better because this is 100% shit and I for one don't find "Frustration the Game" fun to play.

If this is what counts for "more interesting," then you can shove interesting up you smug, condescending ass!

Quoted for emphasis.

Jason, you should at least recognize that what you find interesting is NOT what will connect with other people will find interesting by any sort of necessity.  Telling people something is interesting, when they say otherwise, and repeatedly say otherwise at that, just isn't smart.  And the words 'smug' and 'condescending' I find appropriate with respect to how you've acted.  Additionally, please note that you are not entitled to kind or even neutral words.  Not if you want open and honest discussion at the very least.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-17 12:42:35)

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#22 2019-05-17 15:06:09

Buggy
Member
Registered: 2019-04-13
Posts: 88

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

I would be interested in a poll about the war sword. Now that everyone has had a week to experience it it seems like a good time. options some thing like :
1: I want the war sword removed from the game
2: The sword would be okay if it was balanced better
3: I like the sword it makes the game more fun for me

Last edited by Buggy (2019-05-17 15:06:30)

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#23 2019-05-17 15:57:32

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

Spoonwood wrote:

The dynamics of war swords are poor.  It's JUST a killing tool.  The dynamic of a knife is much richer since it can carve up a turkey, slice bread, slash a rubber tree, cut tule reeds, etc.

Do you really think dynamics means the number of objects you can craft with? SMH

War swords bring a new dimension to the game, even if you can techically invade a village and steal their ressource with a group of villagers armed with knives or bows, the slowdown would make it look ridiculous and you would get killed by villagers while slow which means it would fail most of time and invading a village would suck.

Now try to think a little more than usual before just saying "NO you're wrong", why do you think he released the sword at the same time he's making village closer also why do you think he made property gates?

Because if villages are closer ressources will be more scarce and there will be more interaction between those villages, protecting ressources or whole villages behind walls/fences and gates, cooperating with nearby village or stealing their ressources because they didn't care to put them behind gates etc.

These are all new dynamics we didn't have before and swords are a part of it.

Your town has no more iron close or far and is dying, village close has iron but doesn't want to trade and the iron is behind gates, what do you do?

Let your village die?

Invade them with knives? LOL

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#24 2019-05-17 16:09:25

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,724

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

The thing is, you have free walls that can be used to keep out outsiders.  You don't really need to worry about someone coming in and killing your whole village, unless you just sit back and let that happen.  The fences are free.

That video of the crusader, while hilarious, represents the sword how it was a long time ago.  I think I changed the way that it worked after about 24 hours of that.  So there is a cooldown now, and it's viable to fight back with the other weapons. Safety in numbers.  I've seen it happen.


As far as declaring war first, or through some initial violent action.... well, that would undercut the current "outsiders have a sword" trust dynamic.  As I said in my post above, that is really rich.  This outsider had a sword, but she never used it, so we grew to trust her.  She didn't have to declare war first.


I'm not sure what to do about outsider babies who integrate over time.  I'll have to think about that.  They currently can't be cursed, and can use the sword on you.

The cursing part could, maybe, be a language thing alone.... like you have to curse them in their language.  If they've lived there long enough that you share a language (their filter is clear), then you can curse them in plain English.  That seems pretty sensible.  But you could learn how to curse them in their language even before that, maybe...


Question:  how does the outsider baby get a sword?

Aren't you already being careful about which random baby gets a knife?  I'd say, maybe, that you never trust an outsider baby with a sword, unless they learn the language enough to talk to you and convince you of their trustworthiness... and why they need a sword in the first place.

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#25 2019-05-17 16:20:04

Tarr
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 1,546

Re: Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

jasonrohrer wrote:

Question:  how does the outsider baby get a sword?

Aren't you already being careful about which random baby gets a knife?  I'd say, maybe, that you never trust an outsider baby with a sword, unless they learn the language enough to talk to you and convince you of their trustworthiness... and why they need a sword in the first place.

As someone who has cleared enough villages I can tell you I get the sword by disarming the idiot who chases me around with a snowball, or find one that's been hidden away.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The thing is, you have free walls that can be used to keep out outsiders.  You don't really need to worry about someone coming in and killing your whole village, unless you just sit back and let that happen.  The fences are free.

That video of the crusader, while hilarious, represents the sword how it was a long time ago.  I think I changed the way that it worked after about 24 hours of that.  So there is a cooldown now, and it's viable to fight back with the other weapons. Safety in numbers.  I've seen it happen.

Is there safety in numbers?
nruTKBE.png
gPi7NME.png

The ten seconds of full running speed while being unable to stab does NOTHING to stop what makes the sword overpowered. You can hit and run an entire village, you can juggle breast feeding while doing it, or any other ridiculous thing. These are both from after you nerfed the sword to ten seconds of no stabby. Saying that the video doesn't represent the current sword is shenanigans because the only difference is that Michael Punch would just be running a few more seconds before kills.

And it's NOT viable to fight back with a weapon what are you even talking about? You don't ever gain ground on someone with a sword who can tap anyone he runs by and keep running until eventually there's no one left. 

That video absolutely represents what a nightmare dealing with someone competent with a sword is like. I couldn't even defend my kids against attacks because they stood still.


Days peppers/onions/tomatoes left unfixed: 103

Do your part and remind Jason to fix these damn vegetables.

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