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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#26 2019-05-25 12:15:51

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

I like the idea of overgrow cities, Jason! That reminds me of the time I went to north brother island in NYC and found all of these ruins with trees growing through them. Very romantic!

I don't like the idea of regular wipes. Let us do the apocalypse.

If we have a finite world it should be large enough that you can't run around it on foot in a life. But with a car you could barely make it if you hardly stop at all. That would still feel really huge and mysterious.

My trip to north brother island is documented here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQbCT3DA1PY
It's in NYC! You can see the empire state building from the island, as I show in the video... but it feels like a lost world. I gotta go back again this summer...


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#27 2019-05-25 13:33:53

lychee
Member
Registered: 2019-05-08
Posts: 328

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

I also like the idea of reclamation if nobody is around for a while.

Eco system is my favorite one, but I know that one is most challenging.

If it's too resource intensive to put an eco system simulator on the main server process, I wonder if it would be fine to just write a second server process to act as "nature" engine. It doesn't have to run in the main game loop (doesn't have to be synchronous) -- maybe can occasionally loop through the game object database and spawn a few extra ones according to several conditions (e.g. nobody around for 200+ tiles), span new maple trees near maple trees, etc.

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#28 2019-05-25 13:58:52

wondible
Member
Registered: 2018-04-19
Posts: 491

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm not sure what the units are here, but the max is 400x400

...

Anyway, teeny tiny.

For reference, here is approx 400x400 around the recent double bell town (I wasn't too careful with the grab, so might be off by a few tiles, but gives a sense of scale.)

400x400.PNG


https://onemap.wondible.com/ -- https://wondible.com/ohol-family-trees/ -- https://wondible.com/ohol-name-picker/
Custom client with edge push, autorun, click priority tweaks, shiver/sweat, time hints, name completion, emotion keys, and interaction keys

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#29 2019-05-25 14:32:43

Spoonwood
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Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 1,610

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Whatever wrote:

This is how this feels to me:

First you make property fences, but not many people use them and some dont like them.
So you move everyone close together (war update) so people "have to" use them,
and now we are at constant map resets to solve the issue of everyone living close together.

To fix a bad feature another bad feature will be implemented that than again needs to be fixed by another bad feature and the problems get worse and worse.

But this is just the way i see it, ofcourse other people might see this differently.

You are correct in how you see it sir.

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#30 2019-05-25 15:22:12

Wuatduhf
Member
Registered: 2018-11-30
Posts: 119

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

I am a mixed bag on this one. I kind of like that it's the whim of players to trigger map resets w/ the Apocalypse towers. Seeing a town exist for a long period of time is one of the biggest cultural things I've taken out of OHOL. (Remember San-Cal! Always.)


We have also only had a few weeks to experience the game with up-close spawning of family lineages and how that impacts resources. We've actually started to get a taste of 'resource contention' because of the incredible strain on raw materials (Iron, Milkweed as the most visible) that close-up towns cause. As players, we've got to start experiencing this more and seeing how we are impacting the environment if we take too much and don't ensure that some natural resources are regrown (planting trees, planting milkweed in the wild, etc.).

Gun to my head, I would say that we keep Apocalypse as the main vehicle to wipe BigServer 2. Manual server wiping should only be done if we're getting a severely meta-changing update (like the change to Ponds/Springs, the map radius spawning, big stuff like that).


Avatar by Worth

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#31 2019-05-25 15:30:39

Psykout
Member
Registered: 2018-11-14
Posts: 339

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Because spawning is linked to where players are, it would take a huge effort of a decent size of people to shift the spawn area of the server. Maybe instead of wiping it, weekly or bi-monthly the spawning shifted. The center of the spawn area when this happens would shift, so the big towns would end up on the edge of the box/circle. Everything would still be there, but as time goes on if you wanted to renew the old ruins of previous civilizations you'd have to travel a bit to do so. Essentially flipping what is happening right now, to reach untouched wilderness you have to travel thousands of tiles away. This would also solve the problems of Eve's respawning near civs and griefing over and over. The longer a town lasts, the less likely it is to get Eve's popping up.

Yesterday my first sign in was this pic.
lY4rHO0.png
No biggie, was a failed Eve camp (decayed baskets) that had another Eve that had spawned maybe 2-3 minutes before me. When I went to look for iron nearby, after traveling less than one minute I ran into this.
R5dj5ht.png
This makes play very hard, direct competition for resources and possible conflicts. There were three other decayed settlements within a 2min radius of my spawn. I really miss early game, its just gone now. There is a reason people of old used to venture out to the wild west, opportunity. There is very little opportunities when starting off right now. You can't afford to spend the time to travel that far and actually make a worthwile camp before going infertile and then croaking. It's also shitty to put that on your kids, put them out in the middle of nowhere and not even be able to help them really get started off, so they /die left and right.

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#32 2019-05-25 18:50:11

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 3,790

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Whatever wrote:

This is how this feels to me:

First you make property fences, but not many people use them and some dont like them.
So you move everyone close together (war update) so people "have to" use them,
and now we are at constant map resets to solve the issue of everyone living close together.

To fix a bad feature another bad feature will be implemented that than again needs to be fixed by another bad feature and the problems get worse and worse.

But this is just the way i see it, of course other people might see this differently.


People have been complaining about being far apart all year.  "We can't interact with other towns.  We hear the bell, and it's too far away to ever get to."

You were far apart for a reason, because these other things hadn't been worked out yet.

People said, "We can't trade, because we're too far apart."  But trade doesn't require a distant partner, or even an exotic resource.  People trade with their neighbors all the time, due to specialization.  So, before bringing people together to stimulate trade, let's figure out if any trade is possible locally.

Well, of course local trade is impossible, because there's no property, which means you can't control access to the fruits of your specialization (though specialization has always been happening).  So let's make property easy, and see what happens.  Okay, trade is at least possible now.

But there's still a problem with bringing people together, because they'll just merge into an indistinguishable mush.  How do you care about your own family in that case?  I'm still working on this, but language and cursing and war are three reasons that "other families" aren't indistinguishable from your family.


But anyway, with those things in place, it was finally possible to bring people together in a way that was at least somehow meaningful.  Still working on it, of course.

But the idea that the game would keep an ever-growing Eve spiral forever, and that towns would be 5K to 10K apart forever.... I mean... that wasn't great.  It worked, because we didn't have to grapple with these big issues at all.  But it wasn't great.

Having 120 people on a server but only seeing 10 of them in your lifetime...

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#33 2019-05-25 19:19:14

Whatever
Member
Registered: 2019-02-23
Posts: 420

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

jasonrohrer wrote:

People have been complaining about being far apart all year.  "We can't interact with other towns.  We hear the bell, and it's too far away to ever get to.".

People wanted to be closer together, but not to kill each other.
Right now i see people are blocking bell towers, they do it because they are sick of all the killing.
People wanted to be closer together in order to work together, to build civilizations.
But the game mechanics changed, you can no longer curse other families, war swords were implemented and you cant understand other families.
Being close together is very different now, than it was before.
Its like when you have a kid and it wants ice cream and you finally give it ice cream but you put a ton of salt all over it.
Now the ice cream tastes bad, thats not what the kid wanted.

jasonrohrer wrote:

People said, "We can't trade, because we're too far apart."  But trade doesn't require a distant partner, or even an exotic resource.  People trade with their neighbors all the time, due to specialization.  So, before bringing people together to stimulate trade, let's figure out if any trade is possible locally.

I dont think that people ever wanted to trade locally in their own town with their family.
I think most people who wanted to trade, wanted to do this with other families.

And again for me it looks like you are going against your own game and the players,
but it might be that i am not able to understand it well, and that these changes will improve the game in the long run.

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#34 2019-05-25 20:13:20

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Jason what if you did a 180 on the concept of lineage ban and area ban and instead of always hopping around you stayed in one family until that line died out? THAT would make me very invested in seeing the family continue. To up the steaks, once your line dies out there is a 1 hour wait before your can start in a new line. So each generation would need to insure they could be born back in to that family again or face not being able to play another game directly after. If you are born a "Jones" you stay a "Jones" as long as that family exists.

People who didn't like a family could use /die. Curses would still be useful for weeding out griefers (they could not be a Jones anymore) But when the last fertile woman who is a Jones is dead you have nowhere to go for a bit.


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#35 2019-05-25 20:18:06

Tarr
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 1,546

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

People are going to naturally flock together when players are close either due to resource scarcity like we see now or because players like to play together. Players would rather work in a big dying city than a self contained mini area if it doesn't have people in it. No matter what mechanics are in place to try to separate players some people will always come together as this game is best enjoyed in a group environment (such as a town.) While swords and language are meant to turn people on each other we will always have the urge to come together to work towards the common good.

While I think it's fine for resources to run out, it's also important there be enough to somewhat go around. Each city needs about 40 or more iron to get to the end of the tech tree which seems like a fine number by itself, however when multiple places need to try to reach that point it's sort of sketchy. It really wasn't until this update that we felt how much the nerfs actually hurt a town or at least hurt the viability of a nearby town trying to grow at the same time.


Days peppers/onions/tomatoes left unfixed: 103

Do your part and remind Jason to fix these damn vegetables.

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#36 2019-05-25 20:32:07

Keyin
Member
Registered: 2019-05-09
Posts: 191

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

futurebird wrote:

Jason what if you did a 180 on the concept of lineage ban and area ban and instead of always hopping around you stayed in one family until that line died out? THAT would make me very invested in seeing the family continue. To up the steaks, once your line dies out there is a 1 hour wait before your can start in a new line. So each generation would need to insure they could be born back in to that family again or face not being able to play another game directly after. If you are born a "Jones" you stay a "Jones" as long as that family exists.

People who didn't like a family could use /die. Curses would still be useful for weeding out griefers (they could not be a Jones anymore) But when the last fertile woman who is a Jones is dead you have nowhere to go for a bit.

I actually really like that idea, would be a nice change of pace. I know it isn't what Jason envisioned, but it would definitely make me feel more invested.

The more lives I live, the more nihilist philosophy i apply. Nothing matters, no matter what you do water/iron will run out and your city will die/be wiped by apocalypse.

Why fight the eves coming to kill you? Maybe you'll be born into their lineage later. Why be greedy with resources? you will only have them for an hour. Why care about the lineage you're in? If you play for a few hours you will be in many lineages, and they'll all be dead in a couple days anyway. Better to let the eves live in the town to decrease odds of the town being lost from low population hours/last female had no girls.

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#37 2019-05-25 20:41:45

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 2,034

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Psykout wrote:

Yesterday my first sign in was this pic.
https://i.imgur.com/lY4rHO0.png
No biggie, was a failed Eve camp (decayed baskets) that had another Eve that had spawned maybe 2-3 minutes before me. When I went to look for iron nearby, after traveling less than one minute I ran into this.
https://i.imgur.com/R5dj5ht.png


Oh hey!   I'm the lady wearing  the white hat and apron in that picture.   I was the daughter of an Eve who spawned the the south east of that town.   We had two or three other Eves join the town during my life and a pair of assholes that kept talking about killing all the "foriegners".   The town was abandoned when we found it, so everyone was an immigrant.

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#38 2019-05-25 20:47:07

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Tarr wrote:

People are going to naturally flock together when players are close either due to resource scarcity like we see now or because players like to play together. Players would rather work in a big dying city than a self contained mini area if it doesn't have people in it. No matter what mechanics are in place to try to separate players some people will always come together as this game is best enjoyed in a group environment (such as a town.) While swords and language are meant to turn people on each other we will always have the urge to come together to work towards the common good.

Very true. Though, I have not yet really felt the pinch of scarcity just yet. There are so many abandon towns to loot it almost feels like there is too much stuff not too little, it's just spread out all over the map and I guess not many players like to scavenge and rebuild.

I was just in a town all by myself with 8 stacks of iron and steel, water pump, tons of farms, everything you could need. No one was there but me. I was so sad that it was going to waste I stayed baking pies alone for the rest of my life hoping someone would find it. A man came by on a horse but I could not understand what he wanted. Maybe he'll move his family there.

Last edited by futurebird (2019-05-25 20:49:29)


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#39 2019-05-25 20:47:34

InSpace
Member
Registered: 2018-03-02
Posts: 446

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Do wipes whenever you want to, you update the entire game weekly, sometimes with big map stuff. Imagine a butt that you never wipe, would get messy

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#40 2019-05-25 21:17:39

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 3,790

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Tarr wrote:

While swords and language are meant to turn people on each other

That is not the intention.  The intention is to make interacting with another village non-trivial and clearly distinct from interacting with your own village.

I.e., so the whole thing doesn't just melt together into an indistinct mass of people.  So when you migrate to a different village, you don't just think/feel, "Ho hum, this is pretty much the same as living in my old village."  No, it's different in a few very important ways.


I don't know why anyone would think language differences would "turn people against each other."  There are hundreds of languages around the world!  If you pick a random person in the world, it's highly likely that they don't share a spoken language with you.  But humanity shines through that barrier, and makes it all the more special when it happens.

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#41 2019-05-25 21:28:34

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

*sigh*

The language alone wouldn't have done it, you are right about that, but the changes to cursing and the magic sword did.

Though really it isn't "people" turning on each others but rather serial griefers finding a much easier and safe-from-repercussions outlet for their sadistic brand of "fun"

If what we were dealing with were just desperate Eve's who can't talk, that would be super interesting and it is when it happens that way, but you can't just ignore how some people "play" this game with the aim of spoiling as much as possible.


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#42 2019-05-25 21:29:16

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 3,790

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

As for the idea about sticking with one family line life after life.... yes, that is a tempting way to make you care about the fate of your own family, and we've discussed it before.

Though "what happens if your family fails" still needs to be answered---your answer is a 1-hour timeout.... my answer was, "You get born into some other family that didn't exist when you were first born into your main family that died out."  I.e., you get born into a family that's further behind than your now-dead family was.

Also, it dramatically undercuts "each life is different" and undercuts cooperation with strangers to achieve long-term, trans-gen goals.  Because, you know, you could cooperate with yourself across lives!  I.e., work on your own multi-hour solo project.  That's what the deathbed speech is about.  Hoping that your grandkids will keep working on your project after you're gone.  That's pretty damn special, and totally unique to this game.  I agree it engenders a feeling of nihilism and pointlessness... but that's also part of the point!  You can't take it with you.  You're one small part in a huge story that involves lots of other people.  You can't control anything from beyond the grave.

This is what makes each story memorable.... it has an END, and it ends before you want it to, and there is no CONTINUE button.

So, yeah, I'd be pretty hesitant to undercut the entire artistic point of the game.

I mean, unless there was no other way...


I'd be much more likely to offer cash prizes for the most great-great-grand-kids or something completely gamey and ridiculous, because at least it wouldn't undercut the feeling of a life.

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#43 2019-05-25 21:30:53

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 3,790

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

futurebird wrote:

*sigh*

The language alone wouldn't have done it, you are right about that, but the changes to cursing and the magic sword did.

Though really it isn't "people" turning on each others but rather serial griefers finding a much easier and safe-from-repercussions outlet for their sadistic brand of "fun"

If what we were dealing with were just desperate Eve's who can't talk, that would be super interesting and it is when it happens that way, but you can't just ignore how some people "play" this game with the aim of spoiling as much as possible.

I'm working on this next week.  Top priority.

Last I checked there were like 900 Eves per day (even before the come together update).  Gonna find a way to get it down to like 20 per day or something like that.  Maybe 3 per day, even.

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#44 2019-05-25 23:03:23

Psykout
Member
Registered: 2018-11-14
Posts: 339

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

jasonrohrer wrote:
Tarr wrote:

While swords and language are meant to turn people on each other

That is not the intention.  The intention is to make interacting with another village non-trivial and clearly distinct from interacting with your own village.

I.e., so the whole thing doesn't just melt together into an indistinct mass of people.  So when you migrate to a different village, you don't just think/feel, "Ho hum, this is pretty much the same as living in my old village."  No, it's different in a few very important ways.


I don't know why anyone would think language differences would "turn people against each other."  There are hundreds of languages around the world!  If you pick a random person in the world, it's highly likely that they don't share a spoken language with you.  But humanity shines through that barrier, and makes it all the more special when it happens.

Two examples in one life. Was born to a actual starter camp, a struggling one at that. An eve came up right as I was born, so I started learning her language right away, quickly understanding TEAM and FRIEND and HELP and PEACE. My mother, she had no idea about the language update at all, thinking the Eve was Irish or something, asking repeatedly for the person to speak english. She wouldn't let go of the idea that we must kill her, asking all the kids to make a bow. When we, the kids said no, because we spoke both languages, my mother started to mass eat berries and then kill herself, leaving us to pick up the rubble.

When searching for iron, I found a settlement a minute away further ahead slightly than us. The last female died to a bear right as I got there, her baby girl starving before I could feed her with food. I thought that was everyone, but one middle aged guy remained. When I saw him there, while I was pillaging their stuff with my sister, he armed himself. My sister immediately wanted to run in fear but I held my ground and we attempted to communicate. Almost nothing got through but he eventually didn't see a purpose in shooting. I convinced the family to move to their spot, gathering all the kids, bringing everything we could and migrated as a group. When we got there, we started to live there, slowly shuffling things over. It was a rather short distance, just a couple biomes away, less than a minute walk in a straight SW line from our camp. It felt messy, which was cool and scary at the same time because of how close it was, and how cumbersome it was to get the kids to stop and listen. It was a really great moment, one of the better I have had in a few updates/weeks. The saddest part was the one person we lost, that wasn't a part of our story, the guy we moved in with. The language barrier was too intense for the adults, we didn't have time to struggle through and be able to maybe get a word or two across. I don't think there was any new kids that could have learned his language quick enough to translate to share this with him. He just got absorbed, quickly becoming the outsider as we were the majority. He died probably with no idea what was going on, alone among strangers that all were watching him out of the corner of their eyes.

Perhaps the language has too harsh of a barrier? I really really like it, but its so gibberish in nature that it is a mountain to climb. In a real life setting there are so many other ways to start building communication beyond language, text is really one of the hardest ways to approach this gap. Imagine taking spanish class as a teen in school, but the language is never visualized well or spoken, its all from a texbook, not very productive. I think it needs to be a little easier to start to learn a language from someone, and that it didn't completely mangle the words. If you are a kid and people are talking around you often it feels right, but later on... Not a chance, which is why people just choose to kill. You can't ask them any questions, they can't give you any assurances. Even if some just say screw it and get to work, many stop working an obsess about removing the outsider. Part of me looks down on them, the other part understands with how much blood has stained the game recently. Swords and Language should have been weeks apart from each other, and also awareness to changes needs to be higher for those that don't use forums/discord or even go to the website. My mother literally thought the person was speaking Irish or Icelandic or something, and it was too hard as a child to tell her what was being said. Jason you have kids, you know once they start talking they sometimes keep going forever. Having to wait such a long time to even spit out one complete sentence worked before, but feels really bad when you realize that you are the only bridge between the two families and you can barely get out FR-IE-ND DO-NT-KI-LL PL-EA-SE.

I know what you want to see, actually reminds me of the old movie starring Dennis Quaid called Enemy Mine. Sworn enemies of different species, stranded on an harsh alien planet together. They are forced to work together to survive against the odds. Slowly learning eachothers language (obviously primarily english learned by the alien) they become best friends and rely on each other saving each other from death multiple times. It took years of living essentially on an island struggling against the elements and for food to get to this point. When the alien dies in childbirth, he makes the human man swear to teach his/her (asexual hermaphrodite species) the alien language that has been shared, to allow the child to join its people by reciting its ancestry in native tongue, a right of passage. When that Child brings forth their own offspring to do the same, its' name is added to it's people - Willis Davidge, the name of the human that saved the Child and completed the deathbed oath.

We can't share our stories with people outside our family easily enough, so it doesn't happen. The best you can hope for is nervous peace and maybe a couple words here and there. This I believe, causes conflicts and paranoia that is plaguing the game right now.

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#45 2019-05-25 23:04:15

Amon
Member
From: Under your bed
Registered: 2019-02-17
Posts: 651

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

jasonrohrer wrote:
futurebird wrote:

*sigh*

The language alone wouldn't have done it, you are right about that, but the changes to cursing and the magic sword did.

Though really it isn't "people" turning on each others but rather serial griefers finding a much easier and safe-from-repercussions outlet for their sadistic brand of "fun"

If what we were dealing with were just desperate Eve's who can't talk, that would be super interesting and it is when it happens that way, but you can't just ignore how some people "play" this game with the aim of spoiling as much as possible.

I'm working on this next week.  Top priority.

Last I checked there were like 900 Eves per day (even before the come together update).  Gonna find a way to get it down to like 20 per day or something like that.  Maybe 3 per day, even.

I think this will be a positive change, 900 is...way too much, and all those lives wasting away in the wilderness instead of keeping towns alive and populated.
If a week is based on the growth of all these towns during several generations, perhaps investment will be risen that way, if we have estabilished civilisations, we don't need new eves.

Though I'd think a bit extra on how to work around that during server resets or other things that might cut the population in half.

Last edited by Amon (2019-05-25 23:04:42)


My favourite all time lives are Unity Dawn, who was married to Sachin Gedeon.
If you get named Siddhartha or Shamon, it was probably me. If the name is arabic it was probably me too. I don't like giving kids common/boring/mundane names.

PIES 2.0 <- Pie diversification mod

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#46 2019-05-25 23:17:25

antking:]#
Member
Registered: 2018-12-29
Posts: 354

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Psykout wrote:

….

I feel that language learning should be across some ones entire life.. as its possible for an adult to learn another language....


though it is severely restricted, instead of 50% chance of understanding a letter as a child.
you only have a lets say a 10%  chance of understanding it... and the language you learn from then on won't be passed on to your children. allowing for a slow learning in adults while still needing to teach the young.

and I am really liking the idea of a naturally reviving world... though it would take along time to program and model.. also hear is a nice vid : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

Last edited by antking:]# (2019-05-25 23:24:35)


"hear how the wind begins to whisper, but now it screams at me" said ashe

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#47 2019-05-25 23:29:43

Keyin
Member
Registered: 2019-05-09
Posts: 191

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

I feel that language learning should be across some ones entire life.. as its possible for an adult to learn another language....

you can still learn as an adult, you just have to do it the way we did before child learning was implemented. Figure out what consonant clusters were replaced with what, and type that out to communicate.

though being able to learn the way a child can, even if as low as 1% instead of child 50% would still be nice... I like the feeling of being able to talk secretly when a foreigner comes to town

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#48 2019-05-26 00:41:14

Psykout
Member
Registered: 2018-11-14
Posts: 339

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Not trying to get into that life v.s game debate, but I learned enough spanish to fully communicate every need in a kitchen in less than a year, and at times find myself thinking in spanish. I think siempre way before I think always/all the time mentally because of immersing myself in using the language as an example. If you make it take your whole life, that means you will never get to functionally communicate with someone. This will only end up with people not talking to outsiders, not accepting them, and killing them, as we see now. Considering its not often that people type back and forth regularly in the same family, it makes the language update feel more like, only your family are worth effort or care. Thats why I think it should be closer to 60-75% flip to learn. Gamers will very often take the most efficient route when doing things. Taking time to sit there and talk, AND have to manually remember words that only have value for the next 30-45 min or even less, is not something many will do. Its a steel enforced brick wall of a barrier.

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#49 2019-05-26 09:52:29

Amon
Member
From: Under your bed
Registered: 2019-02-17
Posts: 651

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

Psykout wrote:

Not trying to get into that life v.s game debate, but I learned enough spanish to fully communicate every need in a kitchen in less than a year, and at times find myself thinking in spanish. I think siempre way before I think always/all the time mentally because of immersing myself in using the language as an example. If you make it take your whole life, that means you will never get to functionally communicate with someone. This will only end up with people not talking to outsiders, not accepting them, and killing them, as we see now. Considering its not often that people type back and forth regularly in the same family, it makes the language update feel more like, only your family are worth effort or care. Thats why I think it should be closer to 60-75% flip to learn. Gamers will very often take the most efficient route when doing things. Taking time to sit there and talk, AND have to manually remember words that only have value for the next 30-45 min or even less, is not something many will do. Its a steel enforced brick wall of a barrier.


When enough generations have passed the language barrier is neigh nonexistant, this also allows for making 'kindergardens' that teach languages since each subsequent generation will be more alike and alike.
The benefits in the grand scheme of things outweigh the mini benefits in short them, and this is exactly the design principle of OHOL. What you do in your life gets passed onto the next generation.

- - - -


Also if OHOL gets limited to an island, it might be very interesting to add 'abandonment' decay or transformations, as the spawning cluster moves across the island it could come across old locations that have not fully decayed over.

Crops would turn to their wild counterparts and 'overgrow' the place (lets say gooseberries would decay instead since that might be OP) but would look cool with teosinte, wild squash and so on and so on. Wood tiles would completely decay, trees might begin to grow inside buildings.
Adobe walls would crumble but foundations would remain. Iron would stay as is but the shafts would rot. All food gone, all organic material, it's all gone. Ancient stone walls might crumble slightly or remain as is.

Might bring some more mystery to the 'oh what an ancient location our ancestors made' other than having just a town and it being just empty.


My favourite all time lives are Unity Dawn, who was married to Sachin Gedeon.
If you get named Siddhartha or Shamon, it was probably me. If the name is arabic it was probably me too. I don't like giving kids common/boring/mundane names.

PIES 2.0 <- Pie diversification mod

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#50 2019-05-26 12:44:45

kittykatthegreat
Member
Registered: 2019-02-19
Posts: 31

Re: Other games solve a lot of these long-term problems with regular wipes

The wipes are part of this game that I really don't like. I really enjoy it when the map gets built up to the point to where there are multiple cities connected by roads. If there were no map wipes i feel like the game would have finally reached the point of large clusters of cities close together, like i felt you were going for with the coming together update. The first map wipe i went through really made working on any larger scale projects seem pointless. Don't get me wrong I still put in many hours on the game afterwards, but it was very hard to get back into it after I found out that is something that happens. My suggestion would be to make natural resources act more like trees. To where if harvested correctly it comes back in a certain amount of time, but if done wrong its gone forever.  Then possibly just like with trees there could be some long drawn out way for players to restore nature if it has been picked clean. and for things like iron, and stone, a higher tech added to "dig deeper" to get more could be added. Stone could even possibly be a by product of mining.

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