Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

Bob 101 · 2019-04-30 15:32:13

I get that Eve gets to choose a name but most Eve camps do not last. I doubt all these /die babies are making camps worth a damm.

So many reject proper civilization to build a berry patch and a kiln and have some kids that die out in a couple get tops. Totally worth screwing over cities

And it's not even just cities anymore, Even for Eves and early Gens. Being female just means you produce alot of bone piles for the town.

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-04-30 15:35:24)

Thaulos · 2019-04-30 15:36:35

Big towns are boring. I often gravitate towards small eve. camps.

Bob 101 · 2019-04-30 15:53:27

Thaulos wrote:

Big towns are boring. I often gravitate towards small eve. camps.

And abandon them once they become cities.

Eve finds good spot and is lucky to have good kidd> People flock to the camp to escape larger towns> Town grows until it becomes a city > Players get board and suicide, Eventually killing off the town.

What's so interesting about smaller places though?

Ari-ori-412 · 2019-04-30 15:59:13

Bob 101 wrote:

Thaulos wrote:
Big towns are boring. I often gravitate towards small eve. camps.

And abandon them once they become cities.

Eve finds good spot and is lucky to have good kidd> People flock to the camp to escape larger towns> Town grows until it becomes a city > Players get board and suicide, Eventually killing off the town.

What's so interesting about smaller places though?

Smaller places have more to do

Booklat1 · 2019-04-30 16:04:55

the game ends survival-wise after sheep and pump

it becomes a game of "how long before bad luck kills our girls?"

Turnipseed · 2019-04-30 16:18:05

Booklat1 wrote:

the game ends survival-wise after sheep and pump
it becomes a game of "how long before bad luck kills our girls?"

Or griefers. Or a sudden influx of arr pee ers that refuse to work

Amon · 2019-04-30 16:32:57

Big cities are griefer centrals, large, unorganised, often screwed up, are too large, too messy.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-30 17:01:42

Yes, this is a huge problem in the game right now. The challenge fades as a village becomes established. A game with no challenge is not interesting to play (also known as boring). This is true of all games in all genres.

This is a hard thing to balance in this game, because obviously, technology should have advantages (or else people wouldn't bother to make it). In general, instead of tech having advantages, I need to make it necessary to overcome the immediate disadvantages of the lower-tech stuff. I.e., the "everything runs out" idea, where the next level of tech saves the day... temporarily. That's the general idea in place right now, but it's not working right.

Of course, if I ever got it right, everyone would complain and say that the game is ruined (because a village would become much harder than it currently is). But it's something that will need to happen soon..... so brace yourselves.

futurebird · 2019-04-30 17:08:42

I think this idea about ponds would help. It's not the whole solution, but right now many players don't need to learn anything about pumps because few towns really need them... you just make more deep and shallow wells. If there were more people who had the experience of REALLY NEEDING to get the pump going then the early game feel would last a bit longer.

This isn't as simple as "nerf water" I think if you have fewer ponds they need to last a bit longer to keep the early game from becoming too hard. In short it's:

-decrease number of ponds in one location
-increase water in pond and shallow well
-leave deep well alone

http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6156

I also think Pein's notion of having a cap on the number of Eve's could help. As could an idea I heard on the discord about everyone having a hunger bonus of one pip when a baby *unless you have used /die to often recently* Right now the only thing that sometimes keeps me from using /die to find the town that I want to see again is a vague sense of guilt. That isn't enough to deter people from doing it.

futurebird · 2019-04-30 17:10:32

Also, I want to push back on the idea that there is less to do in big towns because in a big town you have MORE choices of what you can do. There is less that is urgent and dire (at least on the surface) and I think some people get overwhelmed with CHOICE. In an Eve run there are one or two right actions you can take at every point. In a big town there are hundreds: how do you choose?

Thaulos · 2019-04-30 17:20:54

If we had some sort of "higher ongoing professions" that could actually improve everyone's life it would mitigate the boredom a lot.

Right now all the high tier tech is "one use only". The moment you have the engine for water pump, you are done with engines. The moment you have the oil rig thing, you got it. The moment you got radio, you are done with radios. Cameras a bit different because of the papers but they are more of an oddity than an actual feature that helps the town. Airplanes also oddity.

We need higher tech stuff that actually helps the town in a significant way and in a way that allows people to create new ongoing professions.

Clothing was a great addition on that matter. I am now able to just do that as a profession on a more developed town.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-04-30 17:22:41)

Léonard · 2019-04-30 17:54:21

jasonrohrer wrote:

In general, instead of tech having advantages, I need to make it necessary to overcome the immediate disadvantages of the lower-tech stuff. I.e., the "everything runs out" idea, where the next level of tech saves the day... temporarily. That's the general idea in place right now, but it's not working right.
Of course, if I ever got it right, everyone would complain and say that the game is ruined (because a village would become much harder than it currently is). But it's something that will need to happen soon..... so brace yourselves.

How about making the next challenge be population growth itself?
Historically, when civilizations "modernized" themselves, populations started growing and cities became denser (very important: denser, so much more concentrated, hinting at storage update hopefully someday finally? right now, cities in such a state are an unbearable mess and for a reason).
People cohabiting with many times more people than before meant that the "communist" set of mind couldn't apply anymore. You wouldn't know who everyone is and what everybody was doing. Meaning some form of organization needed to take place.

We've seen overpopulation happen in OHOL before, back when the mobile app just became popular in china. Some cities would have up to 20 fertile females at a time.
The berries/pie production couldn't keep up (proving the point that "communism" wasn't sustainable anymore).
If you instead gave us the tools to sustain much larger populations, a city could then have a chance at organizing itself possibly into a primitive form of government to be able to simply sustain itself and avoid collapse.

A couple of notes about population growth currently: we don't have the added bonus of new china players anymore it seems and I haven't seen overpopulation in OHOL ever since.
It might be worth considering some changes to allow population to grow more easily.
For example, nerfing the lineage ban so that it uses realtime rather than ingame time.
And yes, people do /die out of those towns and that's because you've been starving your game of new content lately.
After oil, there is nothing to do anymore. Why?
There is also an aspect that you pointed out a while ago: people don't care about their offspring.
That's right. And it is a crucial part of achieving population growth.
If people don't care about their families, then they might simply choose to abandon if the challenge of overpopulation presents itself.
I wish you had thought about this aspect more rather than focusing on the concept of property.

In theory, here's what I think should happen:
Cities in such a state will eventually create a food surplus which would allow people to focus on newer projects such as building structures.
I have seen this happen personally ingame, in one life inside one of those enormous cities (before the fence update) someone came up to me and asked me to help him build his "house".
Ideally, if people weren't bored to death and wouldn't keep suiciding out of those cities, a population growth would happen given that such cities should in theory have more fertile females and that towns are supposed to compete for babies.
If its people prepared and organized the town to accept a larger population, then they have overcome the overpopulation problem.
Next comes the distribution problem.
The reason "communism" is no longer sustainable in this state is that people no longer know everyone.
Given that you have a supply of food, whom do you distribute it to?
Do you give it to everyone, even if they might be a griefer? Even if big cities become "griefer central" as people have pointed out?
Or do you only give food to the people who are productive and are interested in the greater good of your city?
That's the key. If you'd give us the proper tools, the ideal solution should be to plan and secure a big production of food, and then to distribute that production as currency to the productive people, effectively creating a primitive government.
You could feed the house builders, the police, the bakers, the smiths, etc..

Giving us the right tools is crucial for such a thing to happen.
Right now, buildings are a major pain in the ass (which is why, even in big cities, they weren't all that common).
Locks and keys are also a major pain in the ass, which is problematic for securing any form of production.
Note that I'm not talking about fences and that is because in such a scenario, property could naturally emerge from a government.
Big cities themselves are a pain in the ass because of the constant, unending mess.

If you gave us more things to do, people would be more encouraged to stay in the big cities (as is already being pointed out in this thread).
If you had simply continued to deliver content and staying one step ahead of us, maybe this wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
Maybe we can end up building atomic powered robots after all just like in the trailer.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-30 18:08:50

futurebird wrote:

In an Eve run there are one or two right actions you can take at every point.

Kind of a strange thing to say with sooo many families that unfortunately grow berries first (berries take 12 minutes to grow for the first batch, carrots take 4 minutes). I also don't see many families throwing tons of clay at the kiln early, which could also come as another strategy if someone cooked more pies, and/or more pie types also. I mean you need at least two kindling firings before you can make any steel tools, and how many families throw more clay to the smith or fire it up for that second batch of kindling? Really, it's probably three kindling before an axe gets made, how many of those have clay made while making the charcoal? I also don't see wild sheep all that often, though I guess that happens out of town when it does. Early mouflon hunting also seems rare.

Alright, maybe you meant for an Eve herself, but there's still some flexibility there.

futurebird · 2019-04-30 18:27:15

Léonard, I think you are totally right about population. Population is its own pressure, with good mass production and storage it creates economies (think of the impact of the gain silo on Mesopotamia) Mass production without storage makes a huge mess. Surplus and people you don't know are a natural catalyst for trade and complexity.

I mean I have this big stack of food. I have a big stack of car parts. I don't know you from Adam, but you can have some if you share your massive store of clothing.

One other link in this chain is this suggestion about YUM. It's a little thing, but I really do think that yum players are unhelpful because they are so worried about breaking the chain, and for someone like me who is not that in to it, I'll just eat one mutton pie after another and not think about trading for other foods because ONE MISTAKE and my chain is broken.

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/272

Last edited by futurebird (2019-04-30 18:27:32)

Tarr · 2019-04-30 18:38:38

As people have said: Early game basically has people actually working and striving to make the place work (even if you have suiciders) vs late game where the game is just griefer central. While I find early game specifically boring myself at the very least the few people who do stick around the camp are there working trying to make the place succeed. Late game you generally have a few people working while other people in the town are "working."

Early game has clear definite goals you need to hit to end that stage of game play while end game basically is do whatever you want. Early game you want to get the eleven iron for the tools, get the sheep pen up and built, the kiln, the farms, etc. Late game has almost no customization to the town besides tossing up fences and making chunks of town unusable. Early game and mid game you can at least try to influence towns shape and structures due to people not tossing up dumb shaped or placed buildings.

Basically, the issue is early game you actually play the game. Late game it's usually some drama or murderfest instead of playing the game.

Last edited by Tarr (2019-04-30 19:11:55)

Amon · 2019-04-30 19:08:28

Late game is stagnancy, not so much that nothing is being worked on, most often enough it's simply not having the right tools and materials to propperly plan out towns, don't have enough space to store... etc.

MultiLife · 2019-04-30 20:34:30

I never get to be Eve nowadays. Before, I think I've had like 5 real Eve lives during 6 months of gameplay. And those were from last year. I haven't been a real Eve at all 2019. Some people are chaining /dying to get to Eve, and so some never ever get to Eve (the ones who don't chain /die). We have lots of active hardcore Eve players who play to Eve, starting camps all around and splitting players around.

Early game is very different than city times. Early game you create, set a base for things, make visible structures and be a part of the creation of the core of a city.
In city times everything vital has been created already and you just fix, tweak or clean and arrange. You can create things but the place is so big nobody even sees what is just a bit outside of the core of the city. Your creations are pushed to the borders of a city and rarely people care what is around a city.

Anyways, I don't want to Eve, really. But in early game it's clear what is vital and what needs to be done next. It's clear as a day what is lacking and what is the hurdle the people have to focus on. What is the threat.
At city stage, there is no PvE threat, just people disconnecting, /dying and griefing. And goddamn drama and crowns and obnoxious people.

I hate drama. And I hate cities where there is drama.
I still play every life I get. But I wish cities had similar feeling as early game with challenging but exciting and fun urgency.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-05-01 07:40:59)

pein · 2019-05-01 03:25:38

jason help on organizing cities

like 30% of people quit bad looking towns, even if some people work hard to get in shape

dirt roads for planning, they could go around fences and fences could hold the categories

storage would be better but just by placing dirt road tiles which block planting, we could shape towns very nicely

kind of a joke but highest tech right now is a free tile where you can put down stuff

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-01 03:58:40

I was born into a mid-level town. They had a Newcomen pump, sheep, farms... but no buildings.

I found a stone-marked grave, and it was my Great Great Great Grandmother.... and she was Eve. It was the only marked grave in town, and very cool to see it there. I was actually surprised to see how far the village had come in only seven generations.

In the update this week, you will be able to see how many years she's been dead, which will be cooler still.

But the point is, separate from the true struggle and challenge of being Eve, she's very very special.

Booklat1 · 2019-05-01 04:35:49

jasonrohrer wrote:

In the update this week, you will be able to see how many years she's been dead, which will be cooler still.

this is great tbh

Tarr · 2019-05-01 05:13:59

jasonrohrer wrote:

I was born into a mid-level town. They had a Newcomen pump, sheep, farms... but no buildings.

Well yeah, buildings haven't gotten anything to make them worth building yet. Cold neutral buildings (everything minus arctic) are basically only useful for organization - "This is a bakery, this is the nursery." so it makes sense for people to ignore making any sort of buildings. On the flip side hot biome buildings (desert/jungle) are passively useful but more difficult for normal players to understand. This means the only buildings that are actively useful (basically a building that has a positive effect) are the hot biome buildings due to how much cooling you get from walls + flooring.

In a separate thread I ended up doing a bunch of testing and the best buildings are hybrid hot/cold (allows for a nursery bakery without weird gimmicks) followed by a purely hot biome building which is passively better than most clothing options + fires in neutrals depending on range from the fire, and lastly cold biome buildings with fires (or no fire) either being useless or near useless.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5947

Basically if you want to see buildings you need to buff them in cold biomes or make it a little more intuitive for players to understand they should be building in hot biomes.

Booklat1 · 2019-05-01 05:30:47

Tarr wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
I was born into a mid-level town. They had a Newcomen pump, sheep, farms... but no buildings.
Well yeah, buildings haven't gotten anything to make them worth building yet.

Considering the changes after heat update i wouldnt mind buildings being worked on before biomes/wells, I think they're very much part of the same problem (existing content that adds little to survivability while intended to).

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-05-01 05:31:47)

Spoonwood · 2019-05-01 08:31:09

jasonrohrer wrote:

I was born into a mid-level town. They had a Newcomen pump, sheep, farms... but no buildings.

Not having buildings is very advantageous. They cause space problems, are hideous, and don't have functional benefits. Worse someone makes doorr and locks them, and then they become death traps. Also, boards for flooring in buildings aren't a good investement. Boards to organize farms, and butt logs for wooden shoes end up much better. I will rip up flooring to make buckets or a cart, and boards towards buckets, carts, or sledges uses a wooden board better than useless and ugly wood flooring.

I do NOT think that buildings should get improved. I think that people would become more vulnerable to griefing and end up with fewer shoes if buildings got improved.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-01 08:33:12)

pein · 2019-05-01 09:27:46

not the buildings, it's the fire

or the fire inside building

basically the fire is like 2,5 hot/tile, everywhere
inside, outside
so that's 5 tiles on medium heat
but then the radiant heat is much better anyway
it's 0,4-0,6 so the 3x3 around fire is decent

a solution would be a fireplace, attached to a wall or inside a wall
also if oven is built on boards should look different
maybe make it out of metal and limit some food to upgraded oven

making building for heat? then let us make it perfect heat, no radiant heat but higher average bonus, and don't modify the bonus, give fix bonus 0.5
modify the cost
a fire outside cost 1 firewood to 4 min
if inside would take 1 firewood for 5 min perfect heat, or some other form of heat like charcoal or kerosene
but ability to stack up some of it, like 3 charcoal would go for 15 min
a kerosene could go similar but an attached tank would go more

maybe natural gas

that's worth it

activities only indoors?
now with the springy doors we can have full circuit of walls
define indoors by anything between connected walls and doors

now if we would need for tech we would make it

shelves on walls: would combat that buildings block us, if would store items, would be already okay

but as far as i can see
we got fences which are roleplay only
but a cheap way of making free tiles, similar to them would add so much to the game

an eve could go and do a circle of 5x5 and the kids plant in middle of it, later upgrade to normal boards
would be best crowd control

same for fences and buildings
once you put roads, they see where buildings can fit
cheaper letters maybe?

btw stats show that most people die max 50 tiles away from birth position
pretty sure most of them even live in a 100x100 radius
now the boards you get from that barely enough to contain farms
we need faster growing wood
maybe buff pine? or add bamboo
if im born in a city which has shears and soil i can plant trees before 30
i never gonna see them
did anyone planted berries with 1 hour timer? not really
if we can plant a tree for firewood and logs, and use it like 40 min later, maybe we plant more

Last edited by pein (2019-05-01 09:33:09)

Tarr · 2019-05-01 09:28:32

Spoonwood wrote:

Not having buildings is very advantageous. They cause space problems, are hideous, and don't have functional benefits. Worse someone makes doorr and locks them, and then they become death traps. Also, boards for flooring in buildings aren't a good investement. Boards to organize farms, and butt logs for wooden shoes end up much better. I will rip up flooring to make buckets or a cart, and boards towards buckets, carts, or sledges uses a wooden board better than useless and ugly wood flooring.
I do NOT think that buildings should get improved. I think that people would become more vulnerable to griefing and end up with fewer shoes if buildings got improved.

I find it ridiculous you think we shouldn't have usable buildings in a game about civilization building. There are more than enough trees to have floored buildings + shoes if you aren't lazy about fetching your logs. One cart with an axe + adze holds six shoes, twelve if you decide to leave the adze + hatchet out where you're cutting on a return trip, and upwards of twenty four if you do it absolutely optimally (one in apron, one in shorts, two on feet, four in bp, eighteen in upgraded cart.)

You also can have such a thing as too many carts. I would absolutely much rather have someone upgrade three carts to rubber wheeled than to have a fourth, fifth or hell even sixth cart made. Sure buckets are something you can have spares around and boxes are always useful but there are useful room designs out there.

There are plenty of trees for everyone to share butt logs and it not be some giant fight over where the boards go but it's ludicrous to think buildings should be useless.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-04-30 15:32:13

Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#2 2019-04-30 15:36:35

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#3 2019-04-30 15:53:27

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#4 2019-04-30 15:59:13

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#5 2019-04-30 16:04:55

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#6 2019-04-30 16:18:05

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#7 2019-04-30 16:32:57

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#8 2019-04-30 17:01:42

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#9 2019-04-30 17:08:42

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#10 2019-04-30 17:10:32

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#11 2019-04-30 17:20:54

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#12 2019-04-30 17:54:21

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#13 2019-04-30 18:08:50

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#14 2019-04-30 18:27:15

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#15 2019-04-30 18:38:38

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#16 2019-04-30 19:08:28

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#17 2019-04-30 20:34:30

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#18 2019-05-01 03:25:38

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#19 2019-05-01 03:58:40

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#20 2019-05-01 04:35:49

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#21 2019-05-01 05:13:59

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#22 2019-05-01 05:30:47

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#23 2019-05-01 08:31:09

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#24 2019-05-01 09:27:46

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

#25 2019-05-01 09:28:32

Re: Why does everybody only want to be Eve?

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