Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

futurebird · 2019-04-26 06:14:36

Many towns go 20 gens without putting in a coal pump most never get kerosine ... this means that very few players are familiar with that tech. This is mostly because ponds spawn in groups of 4-8 sometimes more. When you are Eve finding water is so hard, but when you do find it ... bonanza. Tons of ponds.

I would like to see no more than 4 ponds in one location (in the same screen) Most of the time you would find 2 or 3 ponds... some of the time just one.

Now this could make Eve towns suffer so at the same time make two other adjustments:

-ponds give more water
-shallow wells last a little longer
-deep well is the same

This would smooth the transition and make moving up the tech tree in water more than just a hobby. It'd open a ton of existing content to players who never mess with it because they know how to gather stones and make a stanchion kit and that's it.

I also think it might be a good idea to put ponds in more locations, but again in smaller clusters. This could make for more interesting eve towns. I've been in towns with 8 shallow wells. I've had to empty wells just to build pumps because I know if the town lives they will need one and most people don't know how to build them.

Building and firing the pump should be like when you get the sheep. Everyone knows how important it is and you made it over the next hurdle. Right now most people are like "huh" then they ask you how to get water because they are still using a dry well.

FeignedSanity · 2019-04-26 07:04:13

I find that's kind of how most things work in this game. It probably has something to do with the code, but stuff pretty much always spawns in groups. Makes it kind of odd when you can have something like 20 of the bastards in a 40 x 40 block, with 6 of them being in the same 8x8. This, combined with the fact that you can probably fully survive off of just 3 ponds means that this can get pretty silly, and sometimes down right annoying.

I agree that this is something that should probably be looked at.

CatX · 2019-04-26 07:45:05

When I run around, I often find places with only a few ponds. I've been in several starter villages located near 3 ponds or less, because the Eve had to settle at some point. Perhaps the issue is that only the camps near large clusters of ponds manage to survive long enough to develop tech.

futurebird · 2019-04-26 07:54:11

CatX wrote:

When I run around, I often find places with only a few ponds. I've been in several starter villages located near 3 ponds or less, because the Eve had to settle at some point. Perhaps the issue is that only the camps near large clusters of ponds manage to survive long enough to develop tech.

I think that may be true and that is why I think this nerf has to come with a buff to the amount of water in individual ponds and shallow wells so that Eve camps do not have less water.

pein · 2019-04-26 08:38:25

i mean i can make everything for a full upgraded charcoal newcommen in gen 3-4 so even 2 ponds or 3 is decent enough
but i guess not everyone could run a charcoal pump or be willing to
last time a griefer screwed all water so we had to upgrade fast, and i took kerosene from other town and made wick burner, i actually like it, engine well is more op but dumping some kerosene and burning it is good enough, and just need to remember to put back the last bucket
but other life i made enough for a few gen of people, cause we were after an area ban apocalypse, but at end of my life we had like 4-5 girls

Spoonwood · 2019-04-26 13:52:38

Ponds often enough spawn underneath trees.

FeignedSanity · 2019-04-26 14:40:53

I'd be fine with nerfing the pond spawn a bit, but giving it more water uses.

Tarr · 2019-04-26 15:26:28

FeignedSanity wrote:

I find that's kind of how most things work in this game. It probably has something to do with the code, but stuff pretty much always spawns in groups. Makes it kind of odd when you can have something like 20 of the bastards in a 40 x 40 block, with 6 of them being in the same 8x8. This, combined with the fact that you can probably fully survive off of just 3 ponds means that this can get pretty silly, and sometimes down right annoying.
I agree that this is something that should probably be looked at.

There's a jackpot system coded into the system where if I recall correctly items in the spawn area are ten times more likely to occur. This is what causes tons of one resource to spawn in a certain area together (massive pond spawns, small badlands with plenty of iron, multiple bear caves in a tiny biome.)

This is why you'll either go feast or famine on a resource in a given area and what not.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-30 17:23:48

Yes, for any tile of the map, one item from that biome is marked as "special" and given 10x its usual spawn rate. There's a kind of "overlay" map on top of the biomes that maps which items are special in each region. This is essentially a "microbiome" mechanism, or micro-climate, or whatever. This gives the map a lot more texture. A cluster of bushes here. A cluster of flint there. Otherwise, the whole thing would feel very flat, with berry bushes uniformly distributed throughout the green biome.

In fact, this "jackpot" code (as you call it) was in place before the idea of biomes at all. Originally, there weren't going to be biomes, and just one ground texture everywhere, and the variable item distribution would effectively define the biomes. A "berry" biome, a flint biome, etc, based on the clusters. My collaborator at the time, Tom, pushed for biomes, so I added them. But the clustering code remained, because it still made sense. I think it makes sense generally, and looks really good for trees and such.

Another crazy idea, with the ponds, instead of having an expected number of uses.... is to have a fixed time limit on how long a pond can be used before it goes dry permanently. So, once you take the first water from a pond, the clock starts ticking, and in 3 hours (or whatever), it goes dry. This gives you infinite water for a limited time. There would probably be a warning stage toward the end, or the pond would go from infinite to finite and change visually (infinite water for 3 hours, then "low pond" where you have 10 water left, or whatever).

This would mean that, even if you had three ponds, through very careful play, you might be able to extend them for 9 hours, but not forever.

And wells could work the same way. They give infinite water for some number of hours before going dry.

The problem with this idea is that it creates a "don't do that" thing, where you would get scolded for taking water from the wrong pond and "starting the clock." The same for building a second well, etc. That's annoying.

Actually, it would be better if each "tier" of the pond had a timer. So the pond has "10 uses" or whatever, and each "use" gives infinite water for 20 minutes. Then the pond waits until someone takes more water before the next clock starts ticking. Thus, you don't "ruin" a pond by taking the first water from it. That might be a bit of a pain to implement in the current engine, though.

futurebird · 2019-04-30 17:29:32

I like the timer idea, I think it would make people build a lot of cisterns. If you only had two ponds you need to build cisterns for water management. I think waiting for the timer to run out to upgrade could be tricky, though. You'd have to have a cistern or another water source still going so If this was done it might make sense to make the upgrade possible during the "warning" stage...

Last edited by futurebird (2019-04-30 17:49:28)

Thaulos · 2019-04-30 17:29:46

If you could do wells in a place of your choosing it would be great too. Maybe make ponds disappear but then wells would have to be built on their own.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-30 17:31:52

Wells used to be buildable everywhere. Problem there is that there is no limit on local water, then, assuming you can find enough stones. Forcing them to be built on ponds was the solution to make sure people didn't have infinite wells right in the center of town.

Thaulos · 2019-04-30 17:33:10

If you could remove the wells maybe you could implement some sort of area restriction where only one well could be active within a certain range

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-30 17:37:36

Yes, I could do that.... but I'm thinking about that as a last-resort.

Currently, water/wells are not a special case with special code. Currently, very few things are special cases with special code. I want to make water work as a standard item if I can.

Dodge · 2019-04-30 18:11:21

Nerfing amount of water and making newcomen pumps break/wear out to force upgrade to diesel pump?

Charcoal pump is OP, requires more time but basically gives infinite water, oil is infinite too but this could be fixed compared to charcoal that cant really be nerfed without affecting forge.

Having a timer sounds annoying plus wells that evaporate because you start taking a bowl or bucket from it doesn't make much sense

Last edited by Dodge (2019-04-30 18:15:12)

futurebird · 2019-04-30 19:28:26

How would you do it, Dodge?

Dodge · 2019-04-30 19:49:18

futurebird wrote:

How would you do it, Dodge?

Less water in ponds,well,deep well and newcommen water pump wears out after a certain number of uses and requires to be upgraded to kerosene then replaced by a diesel engine pump.

Basically if you dont make a diesel pump and oil, the village will run out of water, the newcomen kerosene pump requires oil and buys you some time to make the diesel engine before it wears out too.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-30 20:55:58

A charcoal pump or kerosone pump can't currently get replaced with a diesel water pump.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-30 22:59:44

Dodge wrote:

futurebird wrote:
How would you do it, Dodge?

Less water in ponds,well,deep well and newcommen water pump wears out after a certain number of uses and requires to be upgraded to kerosene then replaced by a diesel engine pump.
Basically if you dont make a diesel pump and oil, the village will run out of water, the newcomen kerosene pump requires oil and buys you some time to make the diesel engine before it wears out too.

i still like the idea of non-diesel pumps having 3 options when activated:
1 give water
2 dry (needs upgrade)
3 break (upgrade or fixing)

it should be possible with random item tables, like fishing. A similar system could be used in oil wells, they shouldnt be infinite either.

Dodge · 2019-05-01 05:10:14

Booklat1 wrote:

Dodge wrote:
futurebird wrote:
How would you do it, Dodge?

Less water in ponds,well,deep well and newcommen water pump wears out after a certain number of uses and requires to be upgraded to kerosene then replaced by a diesel engine pump.
Basically if you dont make a diesel pump and oil, the village will run out of water, the newcomen kerosene pump requires oil and buys you some time to make the diesel engine before it wears out too.

i still like the idea of non-diesel pumps having 3 options when activated:
1 give water
2 dry (needs upgrade)
3 break (upgrade or fixing)

it should be possible with random item tables, like fishing. A similar system could be used in oil wells, they shouldnt be infinite either.

Yeah actually it would make more sense if the newcommen water pump became dry at some point because not deep enough and need upgrade because the pump breaking would mean you could just replace the pump and still have water from the same place, also it would follow the model of pond,well,deep well getting dry.

Breaking could be an option too and require iron for repair until the well is dry and requires upgrade.

Psykout · 2019-05-01 11:35:19

jasonrohrer wrote:

The problem with this idea is that it creates a "don't do that" thing, where you would get scolded for taking water from the wrong pond and "starting the clock." The same for building a second well, etc. That's annoying.

Actually, it would be better if each "tier" of the pond had a timer. So the pond has "10 uses" or whatever, and each "use" gives infinite water for 20 minutes. Then the pond waits until someone takes more water before the next clock starts ticking. Thus, you don't "ruin" a pond by taking the first water from it. That might be a bit of a pain to implement in the current engine, though.

Thank you for catching the "don't do that" part of this. Don't do this things are bad for new players, and really good for griefers. To be honest I wouldn't add timers like you are suggesting ever simply because of players with bad intentions. Few clicks here and there, and now if the town doesn't shift to building pumps right away, they will die. Oh because they had to shift focus too early, they will die, because camps are tightropes before you get to later well techs.

Solutions that put more weight behind well tech I believe are better options. A plausible reason as to why high number pond towns last longer is because there is a better time buffer until someone that knows how to do high level water tech comes along. The catch-22 of it is though, because we usually settle around so many ponds, there isn't as big of a push to do pumps so fewer know how to do them. If it became more of a sheep like thing "Hey guys if we don't get sheep/wells going this town is without question dead" more would learn how to do it.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Wells used to be buildable everywhere. Problem there is that there is no limit on local water, then, assuming you can find enough stones. Forcing them to be built on ponds was the solution to make sure people didn't have infinite wells right in the center of town.

A greatly needed change with some unfortunate drawbacks. It started the path down to the tri-biome meta. That unless you had swamp/grassland/desert starting point it was a lot harder to get off the ground. You needed the dirt, you needed the water, and the perfect temp tiles for babies was absolutely needed. If you couldn't find a spot like that before a certain age as an eve, you'd just give up. We also lost the ability to have towns in biomes like badlands and savannah, you can get by with having dirt be hauled but not both.

What if there was something that spawned in other biomes that could be converted into a water source so it could be controlled? It could be an existing thing like converting a cactus or squash plant or something. A new item added, or something more radical.

Lessen ground iron
Heavily increase vein spawn rate and cut down iron per vein by 60%-70%
Veins mineable with pickaxe at high break rate. Should expect one pick per vein but bad luck could mean two or even three picks.
Empty Iron pits or Collapsed Iron Mines able to be converted to water source with shovel

With something like that, you could damn near eve camp on a badlands. If there was a way to consume wolves or wild mouflon without a knife, say like on a spit over coals/fire, you would be able to get by as hunters until you raced to compost and wells and started farming, taking a breath when you get stew going. Same for savanna, you would haul water to make rabbit pies from wild wheat until you could get enough water to start farming. Maybe make it so you can carry water pouches in packs or basket, and savanna towns would be know to start off with lot of packs and water pouches instead of lot of pottery. Certainly would break up the monotony that can exist in early game, as you usually follow the same pattern for all eve camps.

Bob 101 · 2019-05-01 11:43:12

Timer is a good idea, sounds like upgrading would be alot slower going.

Booklat1 · 2019-05-01 16:05:56

i think what futurebird said + https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6236 fixes the issue

ponds are fine mechanically, they're just too common ( maybe 10x jackpot is too much for anything?)

Spoonwood · 2019-05-01 18:50:14

But if the game had more people playing on bigserver2 with larger families, fewer ponds might not be so desireable.

Booklat1 · 2019-05-01 20:45:15

Spoonwood wrote:

But if the game had more people playing on bigserver2 with larger families, fewer ponds might not be so desireable.

We can't nerf it by a huge factor but i do think 3/4 ponds per spot should be enough even before pumps

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-04-26 06:14:36

Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#2 2019-04-26 07:04:13

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#3 2019-04-26 07:45:05

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#4 2019-04-26 07:54:11

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#5 2019-04-26 08:38:25

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#6 2019-04-26 13:52:38

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#7 2019-04-26 14:40:53

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#8 2019-04-26 15:26:28

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#9 2019-04-30 17:23:48

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#10 2019-04-30 17:29:32

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#11 2019-04-30 17:29:46

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#12 2019-04-30 17:31:52

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#13 2019-04-30 17:33:10

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#14 2019-04-30 17:37:36

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#15 2019-04-30 18:11:21

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#16 2019-04-30 19:28:26

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#17 2019-04-30 19:49:18

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#18 2019-04-30 20:55:58

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#19 2019-04-30 22:59:44

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#20 2019-05-01 05:10:14

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#21 2019-05-01 11:35:19

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#22 2019-05-01 11:43:12

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#23 2019-05-01 16:05:56

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#24 2019-05-01 18:50:14

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

#25 2019-05-01 20:45:15

Re: Nerf the number of ponds in one location.

Board footer