Simplified property fence plan

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-05 04:53:10

Talked to my local designer friend Casey about this... for like the 5th time.

I now have a simplified plan:

Fences and gates are easy/cheap to build by anyone. No elder blessing needed. But to prevent unilateral blocking power, there are two phases to a fence becoming permanent:

1. The fence and gate is on the ground, in a "planning" phase. Called "Planned Property Fence." During this time, anyone can come along with bare hands and remove it, and it doesn't block walking. Say this lasts 3 minutes. At the end of 3 minutes, it becomes an "Approved Property Fence", still laying on the ground, still not blocking anyone, and still removable by anyone.

2. An approved fence/gate takes a player action to finalize (making it "stand up" off the ground with some simple tool). After that, it becomes a "Shaky Property Fence." This fence blocks people, and functions fully in all the ways of a real fence. But it can be easily knocked down with a hatchet. It remains Shaky for 20 minutes, after which it becomes a real, permanent "Property Fence."

I.e., people around have plenty of time to object to the fence, and even to "test drive" it, seeing how it will function once it blocks walking, before it becomes permanent. If they find that the fence is a pain in the ass after all, or if the owner ends up being a griefer, they can easily destroy it during the Shaky phase. Assuming that everyone's cool with it, though, the owner can get down to business using it right away, without waiting half their lifetime for the fence to become functional.

A fence (shaky or permanent) blocks everyone from passing through it, including animals and such. Okay, cheap sheep pens... have 'em, folks. Fences become Rickety Fences after 30 minutes, and need to be touched with a bare hand to be repaired. They are normal ownerless objects, and can be repaired by anyone. After 30 more minutes, a Rickety Fence collapses.

A gate is the only special thing here, and it has an list of owners. The person who builds it (as a Shaky Property Gate) is the only owner at first. And the only special thing the owner can do is open and close the gate. When the gate is open, it blocks no one. When it is closed, it blocks everyone, including the owner(s). Non-owners cannot open or close it.

An owner can permanently add another person as an owner verbally. "Jordan Johnson Owns this gate" or "You own this gate" if there is only one person nearby. After that, the person is a full-blown, irrevocable owner who can open/close the gate, and add other owners.

When an owner dies, they are taken off the list. When the last owner dies, the gate collapses.

Mousing over a gate shows you the name of the closest owner to you at that moment.

I hope it's clear that there's no explicit representation of "land" in the game here. Just two new atoms, gates and fences. Fences are just ordinary objects with the properties described above. No new code needed to make them work.

Gates are the special thing, with an owner list, and only owners can trigger them to transition (open/close). They also transition to "collapsed" when the last owner dies and the owner list is empty. There is no limit to the number of gates one person can build or own, assuming that no one around objects. There can be multiple gates in one fence, owned by one person or different people. There can be fences without gates at all, or gates without fences. Fences and gates operate independently of each other. They are separate, isolated tiles on the map.

Through these two new objects, players can construct any manner of property-access systems.

Imagine you want to have an area that two other people can access, but you don't really trust them fully. You can make three external gates, and two of them can have "air lock" gates behind them that only you own. You normally leave those internal gates open. You grant ownership to the two outer gates to each of these people, one gate each. Now they have access. But you can "cut off" access to one person by closing either of the inner airlock gates, which only you can open/close.

Finally, why have the "Planned Property Fence" phase, instead of just going straight to "Shaky Property Fence"? Because a Shaky fence blocks walking, and requires a hatchet to dismantle, it could be used as an easy griefing mechanism if you could build it instantly. Someone's standing there w/out a hatchet, and you quickly build a Shaky Fence around them, and now they're trapped.

So, instead, you have to lay down the fence plan first, which blocks no one for the first 3 minutes, and then after that, you have to follow through and make a Shaky Fence out of it. No one can be trapped that way, and it gives everyone plenty of time to understand what's going to happen with this fence if no on stops it from being built.

Tarr · 2019-04-05 05:02:59

Well it's starting to sound better at this point at least. I'll wait to see how it actually plays out before judging it so harshly compared to some of your goofier ideas as it's no longer some magic wizard going around enabling property rights.

futurebird · 2019-04-05 05:05:03

I would want to auto add all of my kids and just remove the bad ones. Typing is hard in game and in my last life I had 10 kids. This is going to make tree farms important because of all the branches it will take. Families will want to fence the town.

If you remove a person while they are inside I assume they can exit but can't enter again?

DestinyCall · 2019-04-05 05:11:17

futurebird wrote:

I would want to auto add all of my kids and just remove the bad ones. Typing is hard in game and in my last life I had 10 kids. This is going to make tree farms important because of all the branches it will take. Families will want to fence the town.

Would it be possible to automatically add a baby to the approved list by passing through a gate while holding that child? Mothers could easily do this during the three-minute window, without too much trouble, I think. Touring the village is already a nice thing to do. This would give you an opportunity to show your kids around and let them know where their "house" is located. This would also let people give access to adopted kids. Like if you are a dude and you want a kid to be your apprentice and take over the workshop when he is older. Being able to add kids quickly would make the process of inheritance much faster and simpler.

And if you have certain spots you don't want them to get access to ... just don't bring your babies there.

Toxic · 2019-04-05 05:16:33

Well griefer with hatchets will be annoying!

Dodge · 2019-04-05 05:37:34

Going to be annoying to have to check and repair fences every 30 minutes but i guess it's convenient until real walls are made in place

Could be interesting to add a "family gate" where every member is by default authorized on the list so no need to manually authorize every new baby

And maybe floors that work with the same system and prevent the construction of blocking structures on it, to avoid griefers building blocking objects like the https://onetech.info/2246-Newcomen-Engine-Tower in front of the gate.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-04-05 05:37:55

Definitely a good start here!

Glad you talked this over with everyone. I'm happy you actually bounce certain things back and forth to us. The peanut gallery can be a little anxious and stubborn, but we mean well

Guppy · 2019-04-05 05:54:40

This sounds so much better and refined now than what was discussed yesterday!

Always being able to leave when inside and auto adding babies would be nice additions

ryanb · 2019-04-05 06:03:44

This sounds better with very little magic. It is in a sense an invisible lock system which I like. Thanks for bouncing ideas off us!

Last edited by ryanb (2019-04-05 06:04:16)

JonySky · 2019-04-05 06:50:16

futurebird wrote:

I would want to auto add all of my kids and just remove the bad ones. Typing is hard in game and in my last life I had 10 kids. This is going to make tree farms important because of all the branches it will take. Families will want to fence the town.
If you remove a person while they are inside I assume they can exit but can't enter again?

please Jason, do this as simple as possible ... not all players in this game speak or write English fluently ... also write in the game is a little complicated

I think Jason's a good idea ... but make it simple for everyone!

maybe it's a good time to implement a circle of options /ring menu (Something similar to Commo Rose in Battlefield or Rust)
not for building or crafting! ... only to show expressions and to assign permissions on objects

1430077670908
23283_05_new_battlefield_3_patch_hits_today_includes_tweaks_updated_commo_rose_and_more.jpg

Last edited by JonySky (2019-04-05 06:56:32)

Mr.XIX · 2019-04-05 09:45:03

jasonrohrer wrote:

Fences and gates are easy/cheap to build by anyone.

They should be easy to build, but I think they should be build in semi-advanced villages.

Should property tools/fences be locked behind some mid-level tech?

In my opinion: yes.

This would shift the complexity from eve/new villages, in which new players can better understand what is going on.

The interface of this game is too minimalistic and not very well suited for displaying property info, commands ect.

I predict that otherwise the learning curve will be too steep for new players. (It already is pretty unforgiving.)

breezeknight · 2019-04-05 10:19:34

jasonrohrer wrote:

...
A fence (shaky or permanent) blocks everyone from passing through it, including animals and such. Okay, cheap sheep pens... have 'em, folks.
...

so ok, functionality playthrough

the person who gets the sheep first is the owner of the gate
they can add descendants to manage the sheep, same as one can give knife to a responsible person

they better convert that wobbly pen soon to a wooden fence
since it will collapse releasing all sheeps if there is nobody who cares to add owners of the gate
therefore they will need lots of maple tree branches

also
one can probably build some strange corner entrance so the fence doesn't need a gate & therefore doesn't need ownership
or one adds a propper wooden gate, but then an adze is needed

or is it planned that every gate & door has a list of ownership ?

bonus
potentially one could expell griefers from town with this method

- - -

Last edited by breezeknight (2019-04-05 10:24:10)

Thaulos · 2019-04-05 10:36:22

Instead of multiple owners I think it would make more sense to be able to name a heir and who has or doesnt have access.

Access needs to be revokable though. And only the owner can set heirs and access.

Amd @JonySky brings a very important point. I quite often find players who speak next to no engljsh. This needs to be simple to use.

/access add x
/access remove x
/heir x

Somepeople have huge names and is completely impratical to write it normally. Maybe have the character say "x has access", "x is my heir".

Then add a door that auto adds children and another that doesnt.

Still dont like that we cant break in but this version definitely better.

Greep · 2019-04-05 10:41:10

Only issue with this is the same issue existing in the older idea. Again, this will explode town sizes if there's no engine limit to how big you can make these. If sticks are 100% unlimited this is a problem (e.g, they're from a pile on the ground with unlimited uses, like milkweed seeds); if they aren't, then we're kinda back to square one with expensive walling: one person might just use up all the sticks on a megahouse or something. Then again, maybe that's just something the town will have to sort out, although as a city grows with all this housing it'll be hard to sort out.

breezeknight wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
...
A fence (shaky or permanent) blocks everyone from passing through it, including animals and such. Okay, cheap sheep pens... have 'em, folks.
...
so ok, functionality playthrough
the person who gets the sheep first is the owner of the gate
they can add descendants to manage the sheep, same as one can give knife to a responsible person
they better convert that wobbly pen soon to a wooden fence
since it will collapse releasing all sheeps if there is nobody who cares to add owners of the gate
therefore they will need lots of maple tree branches
also
one can probably build some strange corner entrance so the fence doesn't need a gate & therefore doesn't need ownership
or one adds a propper wooden gate, but then an adze is needed
or is it planned that every gate & door has a list of ownership ?

bonus
potentially one could expell griefers from town with this method
- - -

A nice side effect of this feature is that there's essentially no "sheep griefing" as now everyone who wants a sheep can easily get one by roping one from the startup pen. Shepherd simulator 2020.

Last edited by Greep (2019-04-05 10:50:23)

breezeknight · 2019-04-05 11:22:42

Greep wrote:

A nice side effect of this feature is that there's essentially no "sheep griefing" as now everyone who wants a sheep can easily get one by roping one from the startup pen. Shepherd simulator 2020.

but only if the sheep are not gated, which in itself could result in some sort of griefing

but in general
this change could make villages more realistic, where everybody could gate an own small property
maybe something more community related could develop,
no idea

i am really curious how that feature develops
though i am fairly pessimistic about human nature, so about players as well

- - -

omlinson · 2019-04-05 12:30:50

futurebird wrote:

I would want to auto add all of my kids and just remove the bad ones. Typing is hard in game and in my last life I had 10 kids. This is going to make tree farms important because of all the branches it will take. Families will want to fence the town.
If you remove a person while they are inside I assume they can exit but can't enter again?

+1

you should be able to name individuals, your direct descendants, all descendants (children of your children, etc.), your complete family.

however, might be dangerous if owners can destroy / remove their property if she gives the right to her complete family to be owners.

wondible · 2019-04-05 13:24:37

JonySky wrote:

please Jason, do this as simple as possible ... not all players in this game speak or write English fluently ... also write in the game is a little complicated

Stone + Gate = Gatestone (for XXXX's gate)
Gatestone + person = Stone + grant access
30 sec + Gatestone = Stone.

Or any other readily available object.

I imagine the gatestones could use the same "object has attached permission list" method as the gates. Unless the permissions were stored by map location.

Speaking might still be nice if you know you want to add someone who is not present.

p. s. On the long names part, my client has name completion.

breezeknight · 2019-04-05 13:30:44

also instead of gated sheep in a sheep pen one could make a gated carrot farm & let the sheep roam free

Turnipseed · 2019-04-05 14:27:43

Takes 30 minutes.... so if i start a bakery as soon as i can pick things up ill be middle aged and mabey older before i can open a pie shop?

Could probably build a 3x3 adobe store room and a lock set faster...

Then i could just make the pies and lock them up.

Im failing to see the problem these fences solve?
I like the idea of them but they dont facilitate trade, war, or specialization. And i can only see them being a nuisance at worst or a have a few niche uses at best.

Thaulos · 2019-04-05 14:41:46

If you don't have a way to "own" something (read: have personal control over something) then there is nothing to trade for. Everything is everyone's.

Ideally items would be marked themselves. But since that might not be feasible then areas of control are the next best thing I guess. Though I wish we could have some sort of rust equivalent to adding charges on the walls to break in that area of control.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-05 14:54:38

To answer the concerns here:

The biggest thing you are missing about this is you can only add people, and never remove them after that, until they die. I'm sure you can imagine all kinds of little problems with that. If you can, you're on the right track.

My friend Casey reminded me that as a programmer, I'm too prone to coming up with the "perfect" system that solves all player problems. In the other thread, you may remember that I had a whole "owners and sub-owners and revoking" system in mind. You can add Toby, and then Toby adds Mary, your enemy. And then you're like WTF, so you remove Toby, and it removes anyone he added, including Mary. The original version also had "force field" type gates that you can just walk through if you're on the list.

But "perfect" systems like this aren't actually that interesting, because they don't have little weird wrinkles or holes. Holes are more interesting. Think of the moment when you open your door and peek out in Rust. That's a very tense, interesting moment. Your door is open. You have to open it to go out. But during the moment it's open, anything can happen. Doors "suck" in this way in Rust. They could be easily programmed in a way that solves this problem. But doing so would make the game less interesting.

I'm not designing a website access protocol here. I'm designing a game.

So, the above "simple" fence system has a bunch of little holes in it, on purpose. Gates need to be opened and closed by an owner. While open, anyone can walk through. Maybe owners will leave them open most of the time, until there's a problem. Do you trust an owner enough to walk through that open gate? They can close it behind you, trapping you in. If the owner left the gate open, and walked away, you can go in there and steal stuff...

And the "owner list", with only a permanent "add owner" feature, also has holes in it, on purpose. You can't remove anyone. No one is on the list at first, not even your baby. Of course, you can open the gate for anyone manually, and generally leave it open, so it's not such a big deal. But maybe this becomes a big enough pain, for a regular work partner, that you feel like you trust them enough to add them. Do you REALLY trust them, though? This gate was passed to you by your grandmother.... That's a really interesting, juicy question. They can add people after that. Maybe you make them promise not to.

There's only one way to remove someone from a gate...

Likewise, with fences needing to be repaired every hour. You can build a long fence, and keep it going for generations, but the longer it is, the more of a pain it is, and the more likely you are to "miss a spot" that needs fixing, and end up with a hole in your fence that people can sneak through. Especially if there's a fence around the whole village.

mrbah · 2019-04-05 14:58:25

would a fence take up an entire space, the way fences currently do or only block you from walking between two adjacent tiles?

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-05 15:02:19

Normal object. Takes up an entire space.

pein · 2019-04-05 15:08:25

issues: i make a fence behind the trees then no one checks on it or no one is there currently
when they come back the space is mine and they cant do nothing about it
i fence all their ponds and a building and they are locked out
they don't get info about me claiming it, but a bit later they realize they need a sheep pen near their oven, under the berry field but someone claimed it for the personal project
they never noticed it case were busy making tools

so a few rules needed:

you can only claim an empty territory, you cannot claim territory with buildings on it- this must be a rule
you cannot claim a territory right next to anything, if it's a wall, you can only claim after one free tile ( i would say even 3) so later on a road can go between it and storage on sides
this sould notice people, not just that if they happen to be there and got the tool, they need to be noticed about it

now how to allow it? cause maybe a female can get approval from her kids, but maybe you, the old guy who lost all her side of family, will be trolled by others and cannot claim his own plot, or maybe people allow it, but then a few new babies come and they are really against it but cant say it

the other issue is: someone will go right away and do private stuff, before having any communal things, and keeps promising to give things but never happens, so then someone else starts to do things on his own then they sit in their private spot and each of them has a fire, meanwhile outside the newbies are starving

so i think same ruleset needs to go for outside as well, like the eve claims a kiln spot on it's own and there is no one to argue about it, as she is the eve, and then claims a farm spot too, the private space could only go after the camp has communal spaces, so basically a decent setup with a pen, and enough iron before people do their own personal projects, cause you might approve a territory for your mom, but she then just turns her back on you and she just gathers everything for herself.

the other problem is roleplayers who can really take themselves into the story, some people already starve out other kids, gear their own, and asshole with everyone else, they might raise you but then they keep everything for their family side and never allow you to have any personal space

just a bit of philosophy:
first people couldn't even speak, they made sounds, and to raise attention, and not to be mistaken with wild animals, they made certain sounds
now maybe a mom would make sweet sounds to a daughter, but his son wouldn't react for the same sound
so he made a different sound for his son
When they tarted speaking, this kind of sounds resulted on names, most latin type languages got different endings for girls and boys
generally men name are more simple, loud, crude
girl names are more elegant, longer and softer
after a while, the population was high and some people had the same name, so to not be mistaken, they gave nicknames, the Big Joe and the Small Joe, the Blind Betty, the Fast Fredy. Then their kids got their nick names, cause they got used to it, Freya, the fast.
Then the family names arose.

My point is: you as eve care about everyone cause they are your descendants, but you might not be happy with your 5th sister, and you don't really need the extra job of taking care of her kids when you got kids on your own.
So for havign personal property and a willingness to separate, even if it's not a big fight, or hate motivated, you need more population. Also makes sense in gameplay that you work together until you got a stable state where you can feed every new baby, but you want to take care of your own first of all, if you got exces you share with others then.

So i think, any kind of personal propery, even if it's just some empty tiles, would need to be approved by multiple people.
"i want to build a house north of the berry field".
"No sorry, we want the farms there cause there is more water there but you can use west side, 15 tiles away."
So you mark a teritory, people could approve/refuse/suggest alternative.
Anyway you would have to have either percentage of people to approve or a higher number.
If 1-2 people disagre, still might be a bad idea and you could reconsider based on their feedback.

Also later on, when you do something annoying with your property, they should be able to do something against it.
I don't want to find some roleplayer kid to allow me to dismantle some fences, cause i want to build a proper big one, or spend my time explaining why is that a bad position . And them being to refuse it any time and im unable to do anything against it , would be also bad.

they way you say it, they would only own the gate, and the fences should enclose everything else they want to own.
but this doesn't mean they need to do the rest of the space, they could attach a gate to a ready room, and if you don't see it, they already took it, and later you arent able to get it back

doors in rust can have airlocks and rust players are always exploiting, even tho developer fix the exploits, they find new ones
each and every trap base is based on an exploit
now some exploits became features, and it's never been intended but they arent big of an advantage and makes sense game wise
sam as you did when shoes could be weared aat feet so you included it later or when i used flat rocks as desert roads and you made it official way of road making

now the door exploits are using a triangle foundation and the 2 doors block each other so even if you die they cannot enter and you or a teammate can go back and still have the base access
also door camping is a thing that communities hate and the people who do it may face a lot more retribution from neutral people too
if you simulate irl thinking by game rule
people cant enter a force field in gmae, just like people in real life respect property rights as they can be seen by police or the owner
and inside a house, lot of countries even allow to shoot trespassers, so there are different rules, in ohol you can even curse people for being good, carign mother, no one tells you not to, or no one checks if the story you tell about someone is true or not, and if you accuse a player of murder and turns out you were wrong, the person is still dead and you get away with it if they believed you at that point

Last edited by pein (2019-04-05 15:16:57)

Thaulos · 2019-04-05 15:13:02

Wasn't the entire issue the ownership of items?

I understand the concept developing small imperfections to add in more possibilities. But here you are developing a bad system where ownership now depends on my only recourse after giving you access to my area is to murder you. If gates are inherited by children then I must murder my offspring if I want to keep anything private.

That's not ownership and and not "missing a spot". It's just bad, horrible, design. If you want to add in imperfections please at least design them well.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-04-05 15:14:22)

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#1 2019-04-05 04:53:10

Simplified property fence plan

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Re: Simplified property fence plan

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