Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-21 17:15:52

Recent keynote in Russia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW-SOdj4Kkk

Spoonwood · 2019-05-21 17:40:11

I don't care. What about OHOL? What about problems that game concerns that people have brought up?

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-21 17:40:34)

SpiritBomb32 · 2019-05-21 18:33:45

Spoonwood wrote:

I don't care. What about OHOL? What about problems that game concerns that people have brought up?

If he wants to share something he finds interesting he can. The same way you don't have to be rude to him every time he makes a post! You don't know how hard making a game is at the same time trying to make every winer happy. He knows what people want and you don't have to keep pestering him about it. He makes the game how he wants to and has a vision of what he wants the game to become.

If you don't care, don't bother post about it.

Twisted · 2019-05-21 18:51:42

Spoonwood wrote:

I don't care.

Then don't reply? Why do you have to be so shitty? Please, take a few days away from the forums and clear your head a bit.

Amon · 2019-05-21 19:12:21

The perfect thing to play while playing Dwarf fortress.
Interesting thing to listen to, are you planning to expand on ohol with some of the information given?

boy, the 50 mark is really good stuff,

Last edited by Amon (2019-05-21 19:47:54)

Guppy · 2019-05-21 19:22:34

Spoonwood wrote:

I don't care. What about OHOL? What about problems that game concerns that people have brought up?

Didnt we just have a discussion about being nicer on the forums?

wondible · 2019-05-21 20:23:02

Ha, I thought about posting this, but wasn't sure the software direction was super relevant, and I had a feeling Jason would see it anyway. I am still tempted to look at some of the sources though.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-21 23:01:22

SpiritBomb32 wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
I don't care. What about OHOL? What about problems that game concerns that people have brought up?
If he wants to share something he finds interesting he can. The same way you don't have to be rude to him every time he makes a post! You don't know how hard making a game is at the same time trying to make every winer happy.

Jason wants to make every one who complains happy? Are you joking?

Look, Jason said this:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Léonard wrote:
Yes, we get it, you want us to use your god damn fences at all costs!!!!
Seriously Jason, the fact that you have to literally tell us this should be a STRONG hint that your mechanic is anything but rich...
So you're claiming that towns with no boundaries create more rich dynamics?
That a vague, undefined perimeter is more interesting than a town wall with a well-defined gate?
Fair warning: this game is nowhere near as good or rich or interesting as it could be. You've only seen a tiny glimmer of possibility so far. It's a complicated game to get right, but I plan to keep working on it until I get it as close to right as I can.
And that means that, two years from now, it will almost be a totally different game from the game you are playing right now.
The only constant will be change.
Now, I know that, for some reason, you all think these changes will make the game more violent and horrible. Not sure why. The game has always had violence in it. That hasn't changed too much. Go back on the time machine server and give the old knife a try.
The plan is to find all the right knobs to tweak to get everything in the game turned way up. To give you so many things to think about, and so many different aspects to balance as you play, that the possibility space is staggering. So that every life you live in the game is literally different than any other life you lived. So that every life you live in the game almost feels like a different game.
I get that you don't trust me to do this, or that you think I'm an idiot, or whatever. But I don't care. I'm going to do it anyway, or at least try to. That's my job. To make the most amazing game ever.

Léonard there told him that fences would NOT make him happy. Jason either didn't listen or didn't care. The latter seems more probably since he said "I don't care".

SpiritBomb32 wrote:

He knows what people want and you don't have to keep pestering him about it.

No. He's not a mind reader. And he doesn't even hear complaints often enough.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-21 23:03:58

Twisted wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
I don't care.
Then don't reply?

Nope. I'd rather get my opinion out there. It won't get heard without getting written.

Twisted wrote:

Why do you have to be so shitty?

I'm not sure what that even means. My head is clear. I don't like Jason just throwing a video out there like this. Look, there was one person on discord, NOT me, who wasn't too pleased with Jason posting this because he's doing that INSTEAD of responding to several complaints. It wasn't Buggy who made that commentary either. My comment above was that I don't care about the video.

Twisted wrote:

Please, take a few days away from the forums and clear your head a bit.

My head is clear, thank you.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-21 23:06:19)

Spoonwood · 2019-05-21 23:05:01

Guppy wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
I don't care. What about OHOL? What about problems that game concerns that people have brought up?
Didnt we just have a discussion about being nicer on the forums?

So what? Honest discussion doesn't always involve being nice. And if you value niceness above all else, you probably disvalue honesty.

Sukallinen · 2019-05-21 23:36:27

Listened the stuff, so if TL;don't listen -

A misguided guy talking about how he knows about couple of lost minor technologies (forgot damascus sword making one of the famous ones), draws line of civ's falling (yup I am quite scared, now when we have almost whole worldwide civ there's no other high-lvl civ to lift us when we fall). Then moves to how programmers don't know, say, processor architecture and such when programming in c#, Java or making webpages. He tries to make a point we lose the basics, and can only do high level coding. IDK who he is, his credentials, nor do I care after half-listening.

Trust me, programmers know, they're taught with virtual processors with virtual memory channels, sizes what to flash to HDD's or where-ever and how many clock-cycles it takes, changed for every course/year so there's no shortcut (unless you pay someone to do your homework for you) before using any high-level programming. Lots of paper on project planning etc.
At least that's what I hope, IDK about those cpp for dummies books. Or if (sadly true) some company needs fast cheap coders never mind crashes, speed, incompatibilities or program lifetime curve/purpose. Compilers can not optimize everything (yet).

Using programs isn't a programmer, no more than using word-processor is being one. If you use unity w/o bit deeper knowledge and you do little documentation you're in for bit of a pain. I do not mean there's no place and time for fast'n'dirty code (it's up there, lifetime curve).

futurebird · 2019-05-21 23:52:22

Sukallinen wrote:

Listened the stuff, so if TL;don't listen -
A misguided guy talking about how he knows about couple of lost minor technologies (forgot damascus sword making one of the famous ones), draws line of civ's falling (yup I am quite scared, now when we have almost whole worldwide civ there's no other high-lvl civ to lift us when we fall). Then moves to how programmers don't know, say, processor architecture and such when programming in c#, Java or making webpages.

Yeah that point seemed way off to me as well. Also:

People are better education today than in any point in all of human history.

There are some dangers in specialization, true, but asking random people now about simple scientific ideas and you will get better answers than at any other point in time. The general knowledge base that people have is just better.

Guppy · 2019-05-22 00:03:28

Spoonwood wrote:

Guppy wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
I don't care. What about OHOL? What about problems that game concerns that people have brought up?
Didnt we just have a discussion about being nicer on the forums?
So what? Honest discussion doesn't always involve being nice. And if you value niceness above all else, you probably disvalue honesty.

Do you honestly believe that it is impossible to be nice and get your point across at the same time?

Amon · 2019-05-22 00:10:44

It is better to partition and divide, yet skills and languages keep getting lost and fall into obscurity due that.

Eventually if we want to go all in on knowing all, when humanity discovers more and more things to learn, when will it be too much and we're met with a hard limit?
Even in any given skill, when many more discoveries are made there will be too much to comprehend.

When will my atelier mate stop playing classical music and scold us for not knowing it? Should i just question him on the most important nuclear operations and the individual tests instead? We clearly see different value in different informations.
And if one person with a skill or information is gne that everyonr relies on, will that be forever lost? Locally? globally? Or will it force a new solution to that problem to emerge?
Everything needs a zeacher and each bit of knowledge has a lineage of it's own.

Have people heard about the hurdygurdy and it's reinvention after it's rise to popularity?

Last edited by Amon (2019-05-22 01:12:25)

futurebird · 2019-05-22 00:50:13

Spoonwood wrote:

I'm not sure what that even means. My head is clear. I don't like Jason just throwing a video out there like this. Look, there was one person on discord, NOT me, who wasn't too pleased with Jason posting this because he's doing that INSTEAD of responding to several complaints.

Yeah, but I was just complaining on discord not derailing the thread. I've been involved with some threads about the toxic combo of "/die shopping" for a spawn locations, everyone being close together and the fact the being killed doesn't really matter to griefers. So, seeing this post *felt* like being ignored. But, yelling about it here isn't really totally fair (Jason may not have had time to read those threads, and these kinds of posts are fine.)

I'm not doing this just to try to be "nice" but because I realize that not everything that makes me *feel* angry needs to be thrown in someone's face. And you can *feel* angry at someone who isn't really doing anything actively wrong. And yelling at people to get what you want isn't effective most of the time with some rare exceptions.

And that's the last I'll say on this thread. Talk to me on discord or something. The thread has been derailed enough.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-22 01:33:46

Guppy wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Guppy wrote:
Didnt we just have a discussion about being nicer on the forums?
So what? Honest discussion doesn't always involve being nice. And if you value niceness above all else, you probably disvalue honesty.
Do you honestly believe that it is impossible to be nice and get your point across at the same time?

Uh... I don't know how to say "I don't care" nicely. I don't think that's possible. I asked questions otherwise. At this point in time Jason made a post about a change he made to buildings (not in dev-changes so far that I've seen, but that might be coming... we shall see). Have a nice day.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-22 01:36:17)

DestinyCall · 2019-05-22 01:48:25

Spoonwood wrote:

Guppy wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
So what? Honest discussion doesn't always involve being nice. And if you value niceness above all else, you probably disvalue honesty.
Do you honestly believe that it is impossible to be nice and get your point across at the same time?
Uh... I don't know how to say "I don't care" nicely. I don't think that's possible. I asked questions otherwise. At this point in time Jason made a post about a change he made to buildings (not in dev-changes so far that I've seen, but that might be coming... we shall see). Have a nice day.

Not sure if you watched Disney movies as a kid, but there is a line from Bambi that seems relevant to this discussion. Around my house, we call it the Thumper Philosophy.

"If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all."

DestinyCall · 2019-05-22 01:51:34

Although, to be honest, I usually follow a slightly modified version - If you can't say something nice, say something witty and sarcastic.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-05-22 01:52:26)

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-22 02:09:06

I hope you all see how relevant that talk is to what OHOL is about---the transmission of knowledge across generations. I'm also working on a very complicated software project currently.

Anyone who underestimates Jonathan Blow's intelligence or capabilities is just.... sheesh...

Wuatduhf · 2019-05-22 02:36:30

Part of me is wondering if Jason is going to try and implement a game mechanic around the idea discussed in the video, where older societies got 'advanced technological expertise' that was very good at the time, but after their collapse, became lost to time.

Maybe there's a 0.001% (1 every 100,000 interactions) chance that when players properly use certain "infrastructure", like the Firing Forge, Newcomens, Iron Veins, etc., they have a chance of understanding how to craft an 'advanced' version that's drastically better than the regular version?

Then, the village has the ability to use that 'incredibly-rare' infrastructure to do far more than its normal counterpart would have.

i. e. Better Newcomen/Kerosene pump that doesn't exhaust and output twice the amount of water. Kerosene-powered Newcomen Tower that lasts twice as long. Iron Mine Shaft that can have iron extracted every hour, as opposed to 'drying up' after its first use. Brick Kilns that p. You get the idea.

The advanced infrastructure could use the "same tech" that's used on Property Fence Gates; it lasts for as long as there is a living lineage that has interacted with the infrastructure. When all the lineages have died, that 'incredibly-rare' infrastructure turns to rubble, or downgrades back to its 'normal' version.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-22 02:55:03

DestinyCall wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Guppy wrote:
Do you honestly believe that it is impossible to be nice and get your point across at the same time?
Uh... I don't know how to say "I don't care" nicely. I don't think that's possible. I asked questions otherwise. At this point in time Jason made a post about a change he made to buildings (not in dev-changes so far that I've seen, but that might be coming... we shall see). Have a nice day.

Not sure if you watched Disney movies as a kid, but there is a line from Bambi that seems relevant to this discussion. Around my house, we call it the Thumper Philosophy.
"If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all."

Unsurprisingly I don't think much of that as a philosophy. That phrase may have it's place, but it doesn't apply everywhere.

I don't like sarcasm much at all. I find it masks hostility and can be confusing. Only on rare occasions when it's humorous do I think sarcasm has value. I'd rather speak more directly.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-22 02:56:18)

lychee · 2019-05-22 03:21:42

I ended up watching the video and enjoyed it quite a bit!

As for OHOL, we currently lack any systemic means of vertical transmission of technology. Everyone (all players) know how to make everything on the technology tree at birth, which effectively means technology itself in OHOL cannot inherently improve or decay. Rather, the limiting factor is more so resources (e.g. iron) rather than technology.

I would love to see a system that diversifies technology tree knowledge around OHOL players.

For instance, perhaps not all players would know all the recipes at birth, and instead the recipes that a character knows are partially inherited from one's parents, leading to a gradual specialization of each life in OHOL.

In one game, you might have a deep baking tree because your ancestors did tons of baking, and you can make the fanciest and best pies for thousands of tiles around. You can continue the family tradition (and pass on those skills to your children), or you can boldly refuse to be boxed in by the family trade and instead be mediocre at something else (idk, ice fishing?).

In another game, you might be a Newcomen engineer descended from a family of engineers.

Or perhaps a tailor.

I'd love to see built-in systems that make some parts of the technology tree accessible to some players are not others. I'd love to see greater emphasis on "teaching" your kid to pass on your family trade. I'd also like to see the slow, painstaking, and tedious process of research it takes advance your field to the next step. Upgrading from a deep well to newcomen pump for the first time should take generations of effort and gradual research that is vertically transmitted. It'd be awesome inherit great grandpa's "research notes" on the Newcomen Atmospheric Core prototype -- the first one ever made in the world -- and know that if those papers are lost, perhaps decades of research will be lost forever.

And maybe even after the first Newcomen is made, civilization could collapse if you don't bother to teach your kid those important lessons from the past -- fighting against your kid's complaints that "the technology is obsolete, why should I learn it?!" -- and all of those cute fun things. xD

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-22 03:43:54

One thing that was suggested a long time ago was a procedurally generated tech tree. It would be an insane undertaking....

But anyway, the general idea for a game about actually learning stuff in each life would be something like, "You're on an alien planet with totally different rules. On this planet, a bleep plus a blorp makes a blat."

Then after civ dies out there, it's reborn on a different planet with different rules, where bleep + blorp does not make a blat.

The tech tree would only be known by the server, and it would be up to the players to discover it through experimentation and pass the knowledge on to future generations.

I believe that with a non-proc-gen tech tree, any artificial limits on the tech tree ("you don't know baking") would be frustrating. I mean, you KNOW how to bake, dammit, but the game just won't let you do it. Maybe I'm wrong about that.... I mean, there are RPGs and all kinds of other games where you learn skills over time (even if you've played the game before...). And Rust had blueprints, at least for a while. But I've always been pretty frustrated by those mechanics myself. Combining bluprint "points" at a "research table" never really felt like inventing stuff to me. Nor did leveling up skill points in an RPG.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-22 04:36:55

jasonrohrer wrote:

One thing that was suggested a long time ago was a procedurally generated tech tree. It would be an insane undertaking....
But anyway, the general idea for a game about actually learning stuff in each life would be something like, "You're on an alien planet with totally different rules. On this planet, a bleep plus a blorp makes a blat."
Then after civ dies out there, it's reborn on a different planet with different rules, where bleep + blorp does not make a blat.
The tech tree would only be known by the server, and it would be up to the players to discover it through experimentation and pass the knowledge on to future generations.

I believe that with a non-proc-gen tech tree, any artificial limits on the tech tree ("you don't know baking") would be frustrating. I mean, you KNOW how to bake, dammit, but the game just won't let you do it. Maybe I'm wrong about that.... I mean, there are RPGs and all kinds of other games where you learn skills over time (even if you've played the game before...). And Rust had blueprints, at least for a while. But I've always been pretty frustrated by those mechanics myself. Combining bluprint "points" at a "research table" never really felt like inventing stuff to me. Nor did leveling up skill points in an RPG.

I would find such frustrating. I already find it frustrating enough when I can't do certain things, such as pick up stone block for a belltower (alright... that was before the recent can't curse outsiders and everyone is close now system... but still can't pick up a boiler until mature), because of age.

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-22 04:55:22

Spoonwood wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
One thing that was suggested a long time ago was a procedurally generated tech tree. It would be an insane undertaking....
But anyway, the general idea for a game about actually learning stuff in each life would be something like, "You're on an alien planet with totally different rules. On this planet, a bleep plus a blorp makes a blat."
Then after civ dies out there, it's reborn on a different planet with different rules, where bleep + blorp does not make a blat.
The tech tree would only be known by the server, and it would be up to the players to discover it through experimentation and pass the knowledge on to future generations.

I believe that with a non-proc-gen tech tree, any artificial limits on the tech tree ("you don't know baking") would be frustrating. I mean, you KNOW how to bake, dammit, but the game just won't let you do it. Maybe I'm wrong about that.... I mean, there are RPGs and all kinds of other games where you learn skills over time (even if you've played the game before...). And Rust had blueprints, at least for a while. But I've always been pretty frustrated by those mechanics myself. Combining bluprint "points" at a "research table" never really felt like inventing stuff to me. Nor did leveling up skill points in an RPG.
I would find such frustrating. I already find it frustrating enough when I can't do certain things, such as pick up stone block for a belltower (alright... that was before the recent can't curse outsiders and everyone is close now system... but still can't pick up a boiler until mature), because of age.

You know what Newton said. Genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration. Climbing a proceduraly generated tech tree should be difficult

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-05-21 17:15:52

Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#2 2019-05-21 17:40:11

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#3 2019-05-21 18:33:45

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#4 2019-05-21 18:51:42

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#5 2019-05-21 19:12:21

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#6 2019-05-21 19:22:34

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#7 2019-05-21 20:23:02

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#8 2019-05-21 23:01:22

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#9 2019-05-21 23:03:58

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#10 2019-05-21 23:05:01

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#11 2019-05-21 23:36:27

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#12 2019-05-21 23:52:22

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#13 2019-05-22 00:03:28

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#14 2019-05-22 00:10:44

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#15 2019-05-22 00:50:13

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#16 2019-05-22 01:33:46

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#17 2019-05-22 01:48:25

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#18 2019-05-22 01:51:34

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#19 2019-05-22 02:09:06

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#20 2019-05-22 02:36:30

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#21 2019-05-22 02:55:03

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#22 2019-05-22 03:21:42

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#23 2019-05-22 03:43:54

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#24 2019-05-22 04:36:55

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

#25 2019-05-22 04:55:22

Re: Preventing the collapse of civilization -- Jonathan Blow

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