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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 Re: Main Forum » jason giveth and jason taketh away » 2018-06-04 11:12:41

Worst is when you have to decide between bringing home iron or thread.

#2 Re: Main Forum » To our dear hardworking worms » 2018-06-04 10:21:18

I actually did this experiment in high school and found cattle dung to be the best for breeding worms.

#3 Re: Main Forum » man made ponds » 2018-06-01 23:50:16

Every good city should have a person running a cart of water buckets between the wells and the cistern.

#4 Re: Main Forum » Goodbye wells near the baker, berry/wheat/milkweed farms. » 2018-06-01 23:42:15

I hear you Morti. I wish I could keep all my babies alive but it's a choice. Do we have enough food to feed another mouth or are we on the brink of destruction and even a pro player will kill us all while we wait for her to grow?
The game is brutal. Reading the first two lines on the website will tell you that. An average lifespan of 8 minutes with only 5% of players making it to old age. Even the worst times in our history had average lifespans in the twenties.
The birthrate is just too high and we just don't have the ability to expand our food output 10x every generation. If there were some way to limit our birthrate it'd be great but as things are leaving an unwanted baby to die is this game's equivalent to birth control and/or abortion.

#6 Re: Main Forum » Check if these numbers make sense » 2018-06-01 05:31:36

sc0rp wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:

Kinrany, not sure your math is right on the refill times.

Deep well contains 20 buckets of water, and refills one bucket ever 30 minutes.  It refills completely in 10 hours.

Refill Rates:

Pond and shallow well, 2 water per hour.
Deep well, 20 water per hour

Oh, I understand now.  It wasn't clear from original description that Deep Wells refill 10x faster.  "Unit" seemed to mean just 1 water: "Deep wells contain 200 water in the form of 20 buckets of water, with 10 units per bucket" "All water sources refill very slowly (one unit every 30 minutes)".

This is so much better than I originally thought. I was going to rage about deep wells being dry for 5 hours if you could only use buckets on 10 water. 10 water every 30 minutes is so much better.
I still don't like that they have to be built on ponds. Another thing I thought of is Canada Geese. At what point do they despawn. It would suck if we built all our shallow wells and then realise we can't upgrade to deep wells because we can't make a file.

#7 Re: Main Forum » Food, Glorious Food » 2018-05-31 11:00:50

It looks like food value is different from the number of bars a food will fill.

#8 Re: Main Forum » Check if these numbers make sense » 2018-05-31 01:00:49

I have mixed feeling about this.
I agree that the refill rate of this week's iteration of deep wells is OP.
A 30 minute refill time isn't too bad if you can build as many as you want wherever you want but requiring them to be built only on ponds seems too restrictive.
Wells are meant to free us from being tied to naturally occurring water sources. This change will tie us even tighter. Also, the availability of ponds varies widely from place to place which will put an even greater burden on Eve's to find an ideal starting place.
I get that ponds and shallow wells are only meant to be temporary steps on the tech ladder but the top tier, which is currently deep wells, should be more generous until the next tier is implemented. I see a lot of successful settlements hitting the 200 water limit and then dying out.
Even thinking of pegging the regeneration rate to the maximum efficiency setup seems dangerous. Forcing players into a complex calculation (see YAHG's post) of exactly how many plots need to be devoted to which crop just to survive is a terrible idea. There should be more flexibility. Planting one too many rows of carrots, or one too many rows of berries shouldn't doom a civilization.
I need more information to decide whether I like buckets or not. Do buckets require 10 water to fill or can you collect partial buckets of water? Do they work on other water sources? What happens if you try to fill a container without enough capacity to hold the whole contents of a bucket?

#9 Re: Main Forum » My thoughts on killing » 2018-05-27 21:10:24

I saw a movie like this a few weeks ago. Can't remember what it wall called.

#10 Re: Main Forum » "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should » 2018-05-24 12:26:37

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm an experienced game designer.

But this is one of the most complicated games anyone has ever attempted to design.

I get the feeling that balance will ultimately be impossible, or at least that is a kind of latent fear of mine, as more and more objects are added.

I don't see this as a problem, many paths to victory, keep the players on their toes etc.

jasonrohrer wrote:

There was always a fundamental problem that I've been struggling with for years:  how to handle resource distribution and regeneration in a world where you have no idea how many people will be trying to use those resources in a given area?  If it's just right for 50 people, will it be too fat for 1 person and too lean for 100?

A few years ago, this game actually had an infinite berry bush as a wild food source.  At one point, something like that seemed necessary.  Won't people starve otherwise?  A game like Don't Starve has a single player operating in the world, so the berry bushes can be finite and a good distribution can be picked by the designers.  But when you have 1, 10, or even 100 people playing, and you're not sure how many, how many berry bushes should there be?

Don't Starve is one of my favourite games of all time. Living as a nomadic or even a relatively sedentary Eve, if you find the right biome, is quite fun. Once kids come along, however, it's a choice between ruining someone else's day by leaving them to die or having to settle down and hope you can get a farm going before your hungry babies deplete the local food supply. It would be nice if a small family (4-5 people) could live off the land, occasionally migrating from place to place with nothing more complicated than a sharp rock and a basket. We survived that way for 100,000 years in the past (with families of 50-100 people). I don't see why this would be impossible now.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The game was horrible with infinite berry bushes, and got better when I made them finite.  I balanced the wild food in the game for one person, and just kinda punted the issue.

I'm not sure, in retrospect, why I was even worried about it, given that all babies come through mothers, so populations are naturally limited.  I think back in the day, close-radius Eve placement was also a confounding factor.

But I still wasn't sure if this problem was solved until after launch.  I couldn't test what would happen with 100s of players until I had 100s of players.

Unfortunately, we have way too many babies and we can't grow our cities fast enough to feed them all without risking a famine which could kill the whole tribe. This leads to a lot more baby abandonments (and unhappy players) and even straight up male genocide. If you upped the natural food supply and packed the players closer together, you could add in Adams and require the presence of males for females to have babies.

You did say somewhere that you were worried about consent but I'm not sure I'd pick murder and genocide over rape. Heck, it might even make players think about their behaviour in the real world.

jasonrohrer wrote:

My original design for the tech tree and how stuff would be added was a kind of hand-wavy content-based approach.  People will craft stuff just to craft it, the tech tree will be explored because it's there, etc.  Just keep adding stuff, people love content, who cares?

I always had some misgivings about this approach.  Pointless content is... pointless... and it's not the way I've ever designed a game in the past.

And players quickly echoed this sentiment after the game launched.  No one made pies---why bother, if carrots are infinite?

Pies are way better than carrots. You can fill half your hunger bar 4 times and only take up one slot while you go out hunting.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I haven't seen a dyed hat in the game in a long time...

I have, that or a crown. Usually worn by the person with a knife killing off half the village because they've reached the end of the tech tree and the game is becoming stale.

jasonrohrer wrote:

So then my misgivings came home to roost, and the looming WHY question came sharply into the foreground.  There will be a bunch of pointless content in this game (dyed hats, painted walls, etc.).  But some of the other content, the spine content, need a solid why associated with it.


I think this game has a chance to actually be a good game, as opposed to just the heap of content that I promised.

It is already a good game. It's the lack of content that's preventing it from being a great game.

jasonrohrer wrote:

My original design for the content of the game broke everything humans ever make down into three categories:

1.  Food
2.  Shelter
3.  Entertainment


Can you eat it?  Can it keep you warm?

If not, then you're just making it to make it.  Hula hoops and monoliths fireworks and red shirts.

Items in 3 don't need a reason.

But if an item's primary purpose is 1 or 2, it needs a good reason, or else you're not going to make it.  I don't want deep wells falling into category 3.

One of the main problems with deep wells is that there isn't enough to differentiate hem from shallow wells. Shallow wells bring the water close to where it is needed, which is great, but deep wells do what? Give you a few extra seconds to grab a weapon and kill the noob (or griefer) who's busy emptying it? Even just stopping wells from drying up and becoming useless eyesores for centuries would be an improvement. Deep wells with their greater capacity will help smooth out the water flow. When a crop of carrots needs to be watered a single deep well will water twice as many crops as a shallow well. Cisterns help with this too but then it becomes choice whether to use the plaster to make a cistern or use the wood to make a deep well.

You could also nerf shallow wells a bit. Make it so they can only be built on a swamp tile where the water table may be higher. Or make it so they only produce stagnant water. Good enough for watering crops but not for making dough for delicious pies or any other uses you may implement later.

#11 Re: Main Forum » "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should » 2018-05-23 06:35:20

That's pretty much how they work now.
People really abuse wells, I built 5 wells and all but one were dry by the time I could build the next.

#12 Re: Main Forum » "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should » 2018-05-23 02:26:42

In general, I would say you need to increase the demand for water as you progress up the tech tree.

Say you introduce cattle.
Each cow could have several stages of growth, eg. calf, wiener, heifer, cow. In addition to the food needed for each stage, you would also need to give it water. Once the cow is fully grown you could either milk it, which would require more water, or kill it to get leather. You would then need to tan the leather to make it useful which would use more water. Leather would be essential for other techs further up the tree.

You could also add steam power. each machine would automate a process but would need copious amounts of water to continue operating.

As cities grow the need for sanitation also grows and so people would need more water to wash themselves and their clothes and to dispose of waste to prevent disease. Speaking of disease people could also produce medicine and other chemicals which would also consume water.

As civilization advances beyond the steam age the need for water may diminish but then people would have to replace their water wells with oil wells.

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