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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#26 2018-04-18 07:35:11

Sakkiyn
Member
Registered: 2018-03-28
Posts: 65

Re: Deciding who has a baby

I believe in a game of "parenting" it is integral to increase fertility by the proximity of males. Even if it was a minimal amount. Although I am more inclined to want it to be key factor.

Also please put a timer restriction on just spawned Eve's, new Eve's try and keep you alive when they don't even have a base. This merely leads to increased infant mortality rates.

In many countries there are numerous wives tales on how to increase fertility in both men and women.

People will eat almost anything like ground dried deer penis to increase fertility rates. Mandrake root was often said to do such a thing.

Perhaps a midwife might also increase fertility, she might have potions or herbs on the tech tree.

Make a cauldron from iron (perhaps several pieces?) and start brewing those concoctions. Alchemy is born!

Might lead into healing salves for the dying, and poison for arrows/knifes, antidote of course if you have poisons.

Snakes could give venom and are used to make antivenom.

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#27 2018-04-18 07:36:35

Artarda
Member
Registered: 2018-04-09
Posts: 45

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Maybe give players the ability to perform some sort of "mate" ceremony, which greatly increases the chance the participating female will give birth to the next baby, perhaps even a guaranteed Queue system for all mated females. This would give males a biological use to societies, by doing a (consenting, hopefully) mate action with a female to put her on the baby queue.

Perhaps random babies can be distributed as they are currently, and the mate queue will be fulfilled first.

Also, as a female ages and hasn't birthed a child, perhaps her fertility weight increases, so that we don't have too many eve's never having babies.

It can  be frustrating playing as an Eve or the last female of a society, and giving birth to ten boys before you finally get a girl. Perhaps some diminishing returns on having the same gender baby over and over, so it wouldn't be entirely random but it would give a better distribution of genders on a short term basis.

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#28 2018-04-18 07:40:45

Artarda
Member
Registered: 2018-04-09
Posts: 45

Re: Deciding who has a baby

carrotlover wrote:

I think Eves should spawn at the age of 14, so they can at least find a place before having a child.

food intake and temperature seems good references at this moment. maybe as the techtree advances, new references can adjust birth rates, even choosing if she is going to have a baby. who said abortion plant that denies pregnancy for x minutes? get out, we don't discuss that in here. thank you.

so that's it.

Actually, in real life, there was a plant called Silphium that was consumed during the Roman era to prevent unwanted pregnancies. It was so popular, that it was actually eaten to extinction, and is also minted on some of their coins.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium

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#29 2018-04-18 08:08:16

Morti
Member
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 1,313

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Artarda wrote:
carrotlover wrote:

I think Eves should spawn at the age of 14, so they can at least find a place before having a child.

food intake and temperature seems good references at this moment. maybe as the techtree advances, new references can adjust birth rates, even choosing if she is going to have a baby. who said abortion plant that denies pregnancy for x minutes? get out, we don't discuss that in here. thank you.

so that's it.

Actually, in real life, there was a plant called Silphium that was consumed during the Roman era to prevent unwanted pregnancies. It was so popular, that it was actually eaten to extinction, and is also minted on some of their coins.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium#Medicinal_uses

Many species in the parsley family have estrogenic properties, and some, such as wild carrot are reputed abortifacients (chemicals that terminate a pregnancy). Given this, it is quite possible that the plant was pharmacologically active in the prevention or termination of pregnancy.

Last edited by Morti (2018-04-18 08:14:43)

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#30 2018-04-18 08:41:51

Artarda
Member
Registered: 2018-04-09
Posts: 45

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Morti wrote:
Artarda wrote:
carrotlover wrote:

I think Eves should spawn at the age of 14, so they can at least find a place before having a child.

food intake and temperature seems good references at this moment. maybe as the techtree advances, new references can adjust birth rates, even choosing if she is going to have a baby. who said abortion plant that denies pregnancy for x minutes? get out, we don't discuss that in here. thank you.

so that's it.

Actually, in real life, there was a plant called Silphium that was consumed during the Roman era to prevent unwanted pregnancies. It was so popular, that it was actually eaten to extinction, and is also minted on some of their coins.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium#Medicinal_uses

Many species in the parsley family have estrogenic properties, and some, such as wild carrot are reputed abortifacients (chemicals that terminate a pregnancy). Given this, it is quite possible that the plant was pharmacologically active in the prevention or termination of pregnancy.

So in conclusion, it would be understandable if Jason was to include food items that, when consumed, lowered your odds of pregnancy as a female, or even outright prevented them.

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#31 2018-04-18 08:50:35

dana
Member
Registered: 2018-03-09
Posts: 31

Re: Deciding who has a baby

How about a craftable food item that would increase the odds of getting a pregnancy? So people in towns that are well off and want a kid can make this item, and Eves that are running naked and will probably abandon their kid won't.

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#32 2018-04-18 10:45:00

afloatingstone
Member
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 10

Re: Deciding who has a baby

The most annoying things about birth: 1) spawning as Eve and popping out babies before you even have a home set up; 2) being born to an Eve who just spawned, who will either abandon you or die trying to raise you. Either add cool-down to Eves or require a home marker before birth.
I also like the idea of contraception or fertility supplements that can help females control their birth rate. So many settlements fail because Eves lose kids early and can't get the girl they need later when they are more settled. Anything to help this situation would be welcome.

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#33 2018-04-18 11:19:13

Alleria
Member
Registered: 2018-03-30
Posts: 339

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Joseph Stalin wrote:

What generation they are in should matter

I hope you're ironic in your username because Stalin wasn't a good dude.


"Words build bridges into unexplored regions"

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#34 2018-04-18 14:02:09

Anshin
Member
Registered: 2018-04-01
Posts: 614

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Nuzalea wrote:

You could also make a crown from something easy to get like string+ leaf which would reduce hunger but also eliminate the chance of having a baby for those struggling mums or overpopulated villages. >.> Contraception crown? Or maybe it could be worn in the pants slot, a chastity belt haha, i dare you to put that in game. Double dog dare.

Fig leaf chastity belt.Yes. Make this happen. Also, figs.

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#35 2018-04-18 14:34:27

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,746

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Thanks for all this!

I don't think it needs to be too complicated.

Temperature seems like the most sensible simple metric that captures a lot of other factors.

The other thing that was mentioned briefly was length of family line so far.

I will think about "distance from a male."  Every village keeping at least one male around....

Though this doesn't help with Eve so much, and also flies in the face of a decision that I made years ago for good reasons.  This should NOT be a game about mating and consent and all that nonsense---if you don't want to have a baby and some griefer male keeps following you around anyway, and then you have a baby against your will, what just happened?  All that emotional baggage from the real world.  That is not the point of this game, and it would distract from the 10,000-ft view of the human situation that I'm trying to construct here.  I don't want to spawn Even and Adam together and then have Adam chasing Eve around while spam-chatting, "Come closer, honey."

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#36 2018-04-18 15:08:37

Baker
Member
Registered: 2018-03-06
Posts: 445

Re: Deciding who has a baby

jasonrohrer wrote:

Thanks for all this!

I don't think it needs to be too complicated.

Temperature seems like the most sensible simple metric that captures a lot of other factors.

The other thing that was mentioned briefly was length of family line so far.

I will think about "distance from a male."  Every village keeping at least one male around....

Though this doesn't help with Eve so much, and also flies in the face of a decision that I made years ago for good reasons.  This should NOT be a game about mating and consent and all that nonsense---if you don't want to have a baby and some griefer male keeps following you around anyway, and then you have a baby against your will, what just happened?  All that emotional baggage from the real world.  That is not the point of this game, and it would distract from the 10,000-ft view of the human situation that I'm trying to construct here.  I don't want to spawn Even and Adam together and then have Adam chasing Eve around while spam-chatting, "Come closer, honey."


Well, We do get babies popping out of us against our will already. In all seriousness though, Males are kind of left out and generally considered useless by most people.


"I came in shitting myself and I'll go out shitting myself"

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#37 2018-04-18 16:38:26

Zwilnik
Member
Registered: 2018-03-03
Posts: 45

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Because birth in this game is determined by players joining the game rather than being a reproductive case the rules for what makes a mother likely to spawn a surviving baby are a bit different to real life. When a player is spawned as a baby, a lot will simply suicide if they're born to a mother that's obviously got too many other mouths to feed, is stuck in a dead end scenario or is currently running across the wasteland near the start of their game looking for somewhere to start their camp.

So factors such as how well fed and warm the mother is right now tend to be irrelevant to the longer term survival of a baby. She could easily have a full stomach and be warm just by wiping out the last berry bush nearby and standing at the edge of a desert, but still be doomed.

What clothing a player has (ie they've actually got clothes so must have got somewhere already), is there a fire nearby, have they managed to water crops etc. vs how many other babies are being fed in the area are probably better indicators. The upside of this is that villages will have higher birth rates as they're more established, which is when you need the extra hands to expand and eventually migrate. From the player's point of view, you get more chance to have a good game, so may reduce the baby suicide rate a bit.

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#38 2018-04-18 16:49:03

Anshin
Member
Registered: 2018-04-01
Posts: 614

Re: Deciding who has a baby

How about Eves & Adams spawn with fig leaf "chastity belts", that fall off after five minutes. If they don't replace them then babies happen. That way players have time to start a camp before babies happen. Simple birth control can be implemented when needed. Men can also be parents. How about the fig fruits increase fertility?

EDIT: Fig leaves should be removable. Men have to manually feed babies.

Last edited by Anshin (2018-04-18 16:53:57)

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#39 2018-04-18 17:09:14

aldraw
Member
Registered: 2018-04-12
Posts: 22

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Jason I like the idea of males increasing birthrate.  Gives males a unique ability and since they can help support offspring.  The fed mechanic also works but if there is lots of food nearby increasing birthrate would be nice. 
 
TBH though I think the current model sorts itself out based on child mortality since available food is the hard cap.  Food and population management is simply a part of the game and I don't want eves to suddenly be childless because it will make it harder to start new settlements.

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#40 2018-04-18 17:58:52

Agus
Member
Registered: 2018-04-07
Posts: 2

Re: Deciding who has a baby

jasonrohrer wrote:

Thanks for all this!

I don't think it needs to be too complicated.

Temperature seems like the most sensible simple metric that captures a lot of other factors.

The other thing that was mentioned briefly was length of family line so far.

I will think about "distance from a male."  Every village keeping at least one male around....

Though this doesn't help with Eve so much, and also flies in the face of a decision that I made years ago for good reasons.  This should NOT be a game about mating and consent and all that nonsense---if you don't want to have a baby and some griefer male keeps following you around anyway, and then you have a baby against your will, what just happened?  All that emotional baggage from the real world.  That is not the point of this game, and it would distract from the 10,000-ft view of the human situation that I'm trying to construct here.  I don't want to spawn Even and Adam together and then have Adam chasing Eve around while spam-chatting, "Come closer, honey."

I think involving males in reproduction is a bad idea, many things can go wrong and it is also a limiting factor for some kind of role play involving women alone in a good settlement and could cause issues in the future just as you said.

I believe that this game is all about bloodlines, families, legacy. Having a baby should be a reward, something everyone should be seeking. You probably want some kind of effort to have children because they're the only thing that can make things going.

I really like the idea of having a home marker, food around and clothes/fire as something that would increase chances. A mother without this can hardly make it.

On the other hand rich places may not want to have too many babies, while smaller places with no babies will probably need then. Having some sort of check of the amount of babies around would be helpful. It would give smaller places a chance  to survive.

Finally the fact that your baby died does not mean that you're a bad mother, there are many suicides out there; what we do need is a way to prevent being born in the same place we just died. Dying as a baby many times in a short period should be a guaranteed Eve; players not wanting to live with you should not ruin your chances of another baby.

Last edited by Agus (2018-04-18 18:04:10)

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#41 2018-04-18 18:02:05

Xuhybrid
Member
Registered: 2018-03-16
Posts: 85

Re: Deciding who has a baby

I like the idea of weighting mothers with a home marker. This allows a new Eve to get situated unless there's no other mothers for the spawning baby.

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#42 2018-04-18 19:05:17

The_Llamacorn
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2018-04-01
Posts: 183

Re: Deciding who has a baby

The idea of having the right temperature means having more babies seems good. That means women can go out hunting and thinks without having to worry about popping out a baby every second. Also, maybe if there is a man nearby that isn't related to the woman, he could be the father? Perhaps an Eve could spawn with an Adam too? I also think that Adams should spawn near big villages and stuff so there can be more fathers without incest. The idea of having a male nearby is required to have a baby wouldn't work, what if you're alone and the only female? You would have to wait a long time before spawning. Also another idea; I saw this requested somewhere on the forums. Basically, it would be good if there was like a 30-second pregnancy before birth where the woman was visibly pregnant so that you could prepare before the baby was born.


Noobs are fine, but noobs that don't listen and refuse to learn, get on my nerves. Your ignorance will lead you to Donkey Town one day.

"Hugs from grandma"
-Rose Winter

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#43 2018-04-18 19:08:41

Kinrany
Member
Registered: 2018-01-22
Posts: 712

Re: Deciding who has a baby

jasonrohrer wrote:

Maybe their motherhood chance should be weighted by temperature instead?

I like this, it's simple, versatile, and you can still be unaware of how it works.

Having temperature above the optimal means trading food for fertility, that's great.

Babies probably shouldn't spawn if the temperature is near zero.

The temperature the baby previously died at could have effect too. The closer to the mother's current temperature, the higher the chances. Less people will die without clothes, more people will get born and die in exactly the same dedicated warm place.

Edit: should have read the whole thread first D:

Last edited by Kinrany (2018-04-18 23:13:57)

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#44 2018-04-18 22:36:43

Morti
Member
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 1,313

Re: Deciding who has a baby

jasonrohrer wrote:

Thanks for all this!

I don't think it needs to be too complicated.

Temperature seems like the most sensible simple metric that captures a lot of other factors.

The other thing that was mentioned briefly was length of family line so far.

I will think about "distance from a male."  Every village keeping at least one male around....

Though this doesn't help with Eve so much, and also flies in the face of a decision that I made years ago for good reasons.  This should NOT be a game about mating and consent and all that nonsense---if you don't want to have a baby and some griefer male keeps following you around anyway,

Contraception

jasonrohrer wrote:

and then you have a baby against your will, what just happened?

Abortion. Adoption. Feed the kid to a hungry bear to appease the mushroom gods. Throw him in an atomic powered Soylent green machine to provide food for the town. There are so many solutions to this problem.

jasonrohrer wrote:

All that emotional baggage from the real world.

You give us problems, we'll come up with the solutions.

jasonrohrer wrote:

That is not the point of this game, and it would distract from the 10,000-ft view of the human situation that I'm trying to construct here.

This is also, that 10,000-ft view, for billions. Reproduction is such an integral part of life. Maybe it's easy to shrug off now that you've leaped that most monumental hurdle for any single organism to surmount, but for all those people on Earth, trying to get laid, trying to make a six figures so they feel financially secure enough to attract high enough class mates, for those people going to the gym for 6 hours a day every other day of the week just so they look ripped enough that they are comfortable flirting with women, for almost everyone, for almost every reason we exist, this is a thing.

Jason, we don't know each other, but I like you. I like this game. I like your attitude, and I don't want to change you too much.

Never lose sight of that 10,000-ft view, whatever it is. Sure if I dug more through your past; comments, games, etc.. I'd find it and see what you're shooting for, but I'm not going to do that.

Instead I want you to know that you are not alone, there is always a man, some logarithmic distance away who wants to put his ideas in your head.

XD

I get you to add them to your game, like a deposit of sperm in an unwilling recipient.

I'm not saying we want to rape your ideas with our own, that would be callous of me.

I want our ideas to make sweet love, at a glance, and leave a little seed of my idea in your ideas belly.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I don't want to spawn Even and Adam together and then have Adam chasing Eve around while spam-chatting, "Come closer, honey."

As I pointed out, this would be a problem that you could give us solutions for, like the eve staying cold, or hot, if she didn't want kids, she could eat wild carrots to reduce the odds of getting pregnant, or a similar product made from the bark of a swamp tree, it's up to you.

If it's all too frustrating you could always add aspirin to the game, I mean, we do have willow trees, just waiting to have another purpose.

Just keep havin fun with this, it's your seed, in our lives, whether we end up appreciating it or not, we'll live with it.

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#45 2018-04-18 23:13:30

Kinrany
Member
Registered: 2018-01-22
Posts: 712

Re: Deciding who has a baby

That was unnecessarily graphic ._.

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#46 2018-04-19 09:12:01

Lum
Member
Registered: 2018-04-03
Posts: 404

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Morti wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:

Thanks for all this!

I don't think it needs to be too complicated.

Temperature seems like the most sensible simple metric that captures a lot of other factors.

The other thing that was mentioned briefly was length of family line so far.

I will think about "distance from a male."  Every village keeping at least one male around....

Though this doesn't help with Eve so much, and also flies in the face of a decision that I made years ago for good reasons.  This should NOT be a game about mating and consent and all that nonsense---if you don't want to have a baby and some griefer male keeps following you around anyway,

Contraception

jasonrohrer wrote:

and then you have a baby against your will, what just happened?

Abortion. Adoption. Feed the kid to a hungry bear to appease the mushroom gods. Throw him in an atomic powered Soylent green machine to provide food for the town. There are so many solutions to this problem.

jasonrohrer wrote:

All that emotional baggage from the real world.

You give us problems, we'll come up with the solutions.

You'e giving solutions to how to deal with the baby. The problem Jason was highlighting is the implementation of what is, essentially, a rape mechanic. He doesn't want that, it's way too serious. As he said, it doesn't have to be as complicated as it is in real life. You also can't just claim that you'll find a solution for rape and sexuality in this game when there aren't even any in the real world yet. That's just utopist.


I appreciate they/them pronouns~ thanks

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#47 2018-04-19 11:02:10

Drakulon
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 136

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Lum wrote:

You'e giving solutions to how to deal with the baby. The problem Jason was highlighting is the implementation of what is, essentially, a rape mechanic. He doesn't want that, it's way too serious. As he said, it doesn't have to be as complicated as it is in real life.

How is rape worse than killing? Its not, there is no way it is. Killing is already in the game. You can kill kids, you can kill their parents, you can kill everyone.
If you rape someone the result is a new life. If you kill someone the result is the opposite.

Lum wrote:

You also can't just claim that you'll find a solution for rape and sexuality in this game when there aren't even any in the real world yet. That's just utopist.

This is not about finding the perfect solution, its more about having fun dealing with the problem.

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#48 2018-04-19 11:32:39

Drakulon
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 136

Re: Deciding who has a baby

One of the things that make this game so unique is that you get born as a child, from another player.
I don't know any game that has this mechanic.
Adding Adams and reproduction to the game would fit very well with this idea.

This would also allow genetics to be a part of the game.
(If you are white and have a kid with a black guy, the kid will be most likely brown, maybe white or black)

Stuff like this would create awesome stories big_smile

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#49 2018-04-19 12:33:22

jord1990
Moderator
Registered: 2018-03-03
Posts: 185

Re: Deciding who has a baby

Going off temp seems like a a good idea. I also think food like mutton and pies should give you a fertility boost because they are signs of a mom that is most likely near a civilized area!

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#50 2018-04-19 12:33:59

Joriom
Moderator
From: Warsaw, Poland
Registered: 2018-03-11
Posts: 565
Website

Re: Deciding who has a baby

jasonrohrer wrote:

Thanks for all this!

I don't think it needs to be too complicated.

Temperature seems like the most sensible simple metric that captures a lot of other factors.

The other thing that was mentioned briefly was length of family line so far.

I will think about "distance from a male."  Every village keeping at least one male around....

Though this doesn't help with Eve so much, and also flies in the face of a decision that I made years ago for good reasons.  This should NOT be a game about mating and consent and all that nonsense---if you don't want to have a baby and some griefer male keeps following you around anyway, and then you have a baby against your will, what just happened?  All that emotional baggage from the real world.  That is not the point of this game, and it would distract from the 10,000-ft view of the human situation that I'm trying to construct here.  I don't want to spawn Even and Adam together and then have Adam chasing Eve around while spam-chatting, "Come closer, honey."

Please remember that not everything needs to have "full effect" on everything else.
I've seen someone propose "simple" calculation like:  FactorA * FactorB * FactorC * etc... where all the factors are btween 0.0 and 1.0
Thats a good idea just needs a small tweaking.
Lets say "FactorD" is having male around. Instead of making it a value between 0.0 and 1.0 make it between 0.9 and 1.0 - and make it on something like logarythmic scale - the more males around the closer to 1.0. This way it still has some degree of effect but most of the time its hardly noticable. You can't really "grieff" that way but if there are a lot of "quite good mothers" it might help one of them to become "very good mother" if she needs to. Slight little push can often change a lot while not being abusable.

Also - the "male detection" range could be just high enough that males can "impregnate" from offscreen so... Having male becomes kind of "passive trait" of villages rather than "come honey" event.

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