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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2019-11-27 17:48:18

Spoonwood
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Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,000

Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

Though appearances might suggest it, this game is not a work of historical fiction.  It's a work of science fiction where the player gets expected to imagine their character in a futuristic post-apocalyptic world.

But, the people who survive the apocalypse would not all have the same knowledge.  Ms. Boots would not have the same knowledge as Ms. German.

It could be awful if Ms. Boots could do things that Ms. German couldn't (though maybe not.. maybe more lives would be different).

That said, if everyone who survived the apocalypse knew how to use the same tools, I don't see a reason to believe that everyone would know how to do everything equally well either.

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#2 2019-11-27 20:51:47

Coconut Fruit
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Registered: 2019-08-16
Posts: 819

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

Nice spam.


Making own private server (Very easy! You can play on it even if you haven't bought the game)
Zoom mod
Mini guide for beginners
website with all recipies

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#3 2019-11-27 21:29:23

kaidu
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Registered: 2019-11-21
Posts: 12

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

Spoonwood wrote:

It's a work of science fiction where the player gets expected to imagine their character in a futuristic post-apocalyptic world.

Is it? I don't see any ruins in the game. Nor any intro explaining that the game plays after some apocalyptic event. It might be one interpretation. Other players might have different interpretations.

The remaining post seems even more nonsense to me. I would say the idea behind tool slots is that you have to learn how to use tools and, thus, cannot master all possible tools. However, the game does not implement any kind of experience system, so it uses tool slots as some game mechanic simplification for it.

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#4 2019-11-27 21:45:53

Grim_Arbiter
Member
Registered: 2018-12-30
Posts: 943

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

I mean we have these.. who the hell built these?!?

obj_791.png


--Grim
I'm flying high. But the worst is never first, and there's a person that'll set you straight. Cancelling the force within my brain. For flying high. The simulator has been disengaged.

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#5 2019-11-27 21:51:52

Kaveh
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Registered: 2019-07-27
Posts: 168

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

[ ALIENS ]

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#6 2019-11-28 04:44:38

Spoonwood
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Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,000

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

kaidu wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:

It's a work of science fiction where the player gets expected to imagine their character in a futuristic post-apocalyptic world.
Is it? I don't see any ruins in the game. Nor any intro explaining that the game plays after some apocalyptic event. It might be one interpretation. Other players might have different interpretations.

My recollections are that people with longer forum accounts on the forums have stated that we're in a post-apocalyptic world.  The Wikipedia says:

"Rohrer has said that the idea that led to the game was a thought experiment about how long it would take for humanity to get "from arrowheads to iPhones" with "the knowledge we have today"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Hour_One_Life

"The knowledge we have today" sounds like modern people, and needing to do that throughout the world, would only happen after some apocalypse, wouldn't it?  Or if people landed on some alien planet?  Either way, that sounds like science fiction.

Also, Grim provided a picture of ruins.

kaidu wrote:

The remaining post seems even more nonsense to me. I would say the idea behind tool slots is that you have to learn how to use tools and, thus, cannot master all possible tools. However, the game does not implement any kind of experience system, so it uses tool slots as some game mechanic simplification for it.

No.  Tool slots are completely disabled when a server has less than 15 people.  Thus, every character could master all possible tools in some context.  Jason talks about his reasons here: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8181

It's good though that you have written what you did though.  Sometimes it's not feasible to realize that one has mis-thought something until others can show one why that doesn't hold.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-11-28 04:47:53)

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#7 2019-11-28 07:53:10

CatX
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2019-02-11
Posts: 439

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

Spoonwood wrote:

My recollections are that people with longer forum accounts on the forums have stated that we're in a post-apocalyptic world.  The Wikipedia says:

"Rohrer has said that the idea that led to the game was a thought experiment about how long it would take for humanity to get "from arrowheads to iPhones" with "the knowledge we have today"."

Yes, also see Jason's update post here:

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4778

Jason sometimes replies that "it's the future, not the past" when someone suggests that there ought to be more levels between stone age tech and present day tech. But I haven't been able to find his replies.

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#8 2019-11-30 13:30:56

kaidu
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Registered: 2019-11-21
Posts: 12

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

"It took us 4000 years to advance from stone-aged tech to the iPhone the first time around.  If we had to start over from scratch, naked in the wilderness, with nothing but rocks and sticks, but we retained all knowledge, how long would it take the second time?"

There is an easy interpretation for that, which does not involve any kind of post-apocalyptic world: WE, the players, know everything about modern tech. By playing a newborn virtual character in this world, we break through the third wall, because we have all this knowledge and we can take over the knowledge across generations. So the experiment apply to us: Would we be able to rebuild civilization from scratch?

I want to stress that many parts of the game are unrealistic and, therefore, count against the idea of a post-apocalyptic or historical setting. For example, that Eve starts from nowhere. That every women can get children without men are involved. That there is no technology research, nor teaching of technology to the next generations. Of course, you could explain everything by some kind of background story. But such a background story is missing. Which means that either it is just not important, because the game is not story driven, or because everyone is free to make his own background story, or maybe Jason just didn't find time for a background story. Who knows.

I just find it strange when people start assuming from nothing that the game has a post-apocalyptic setting, just to then complain about all logical errors in this setting.

Maybe I should now claim that the game has a religious setting - because the first character is called Eve. Poor stupid players who thought its about post-apocalyptic. You just misunderstand the complete game. Ouch. But we should definitely add churches, prophets, messiahs and a burning bush to the game, because its religious, so these elements have to be contained! Hurry up, Jason!

Last edited by kaidu (2019-11-30 13:31:20)

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#9 2019-11-30 16:47:23

Spoonwood
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Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,000

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

kaidu wrote:

"It took us 4000 years to advance from stone-aged tech to the iPhone the first time around.  If we had to start over from scratch, naked in the wilderness, with nothing but rocks and sticks, but we retained all knowledge, how long would it take the second time?"

There is an easy interpretation for that, which does not involve any kind of post-apocalyptic world: WE, the players, know everything about modern tech. By playing a newborn virtual character in this world, we break through the third wall, because we have all this knowledge and we can take over the knowledge across generations. So the experiment apply to us: Would we be able to rebuild civilization from scratch?

So if I'm watching a recording of the game getting played, I'm not supposed to imagine a world of people running around doing things, but imagine a person at a computer screen control images running on a computer program?   Of course someone controls the characters or did at some point in time.  But, your perspective sort of breaks the immersion of the game to me.  Or could break someone watching the game play out.

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#10 2019-11-30 17:25:59

kaidu
Member
Registered: 2019-11-21
Posts: 12

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

You can use any background story that you like, whatever improves the immersion of the game for you. I just say, it is stupid to claim that this is the right one, or that other people have to follow this background story.

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#11 2019-11-30 18:17:03

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,428

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

I'm sticking with the "alien zoo" theory.   Even without the Rift, I think it makes a lot more sense than any of the other suggestions I've seen so far.   The sooner we all accept it, the better chance we have of escaping before it is too late.

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#12 2019-12-01 01:37:26

Spoonwood
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Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,000

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

Kaidu,

Jason wrote this a few months ago, and this is an exact quote and the entire quote:

jasonrohrer wrote:

This game takes place in the future.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 403#p69403

I don't know of him saying anything contrary to that.

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#13 2019-12-01 09:13:02

WalrusesConquer
Member
Registered: 2018-07-11
Posts: 492

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

He also said it was an alien planet where a
nlack + nog = x but sometimes a nlack + nog =Y
But also, why does the lore matter so much to you? It doesn't affect the game and I don't really mind that it's 'unrealistic' or whatever

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 838#p60838
Huh it was actually a blap. But again, I could make up my own lore if I wanted to since it's just explaination for why the world is what it is.
Some say prometheus who stole fire, some say it was a oppossum, but it doesn't really matter which is right. The world is how it is.

Last edited by WalrusesConquer (2019-12-01 09:18:31)


Recent favorite lives:
Favio Pheonix,Les Nana,Cloud Charles, Rosa Colo [fed my little bro] Lucas Dawn [husband of magnolia] Jasmine Yu,Chogiwa, Tae (Jazz meister)Gillian Yellow (adoptive husband),Jason Dua, Arya Stark, Sophie Cucci, Cerenity Ergo ,Owner of Boris The Goose,Being Maria's mom, Santa's helper.

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#14 2019-12-01 11:07:04

CatX
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2019-02-11
Posts: 439

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

kaidu wrote:

I just find it strange when people start assuming from nothing that the game has a post-apocalyptic setting, just to then complain about all logical errors in this setting.

Kaidu, Jason has made more comments about this on the forum, I just wasn't able to find them. (Edit, I see Spoonwood found one of them). It seems that in his mind, there is sort of an "origin story" behind every Eve, but it's not clear in the game what it is. Whatever that story is, it explains why Eve and her descendants quickly (?) develop certain technologies but not others, and why the evolution of civilization does not resemble the historical ages of the world.

Jason has also asked that when we encounter a problem in the game, we shouldn't suggest how to solve the problem, instead we should simply describe it to him. That is what I think Spoonwood meant to do: To describe to Jason that the background of the Eves is confusing and open to interpretation (unless you've read Jason's posts (but then again, there's a discussion in art about whether artists/authors opinions should matter at all, or whether the reader (player) has the right to interpret the text (the artistic product) any way they want.))

So I'm not here to say that you are wrong. Feel free to interpret it any way you want. However, based on Jason's comments, a "canon" story also exists that you can choose to ignore. smile

Last edited by CatX (2019-12-01 11:07:52)

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#15 2019-12-01 13:15:59

Spoonwood
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Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,000

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

WalrusesConquer wrote:

He also said it was an alien planet where a
nlack + nog = x but sometimes a nlack + nog =Y

Not quite.  He said:

jasonrohrer wrote:

the general idea for a game about actually learning stuff in each life *would* [emphasis added] be something like, "You're on an alien planet with totally different rules.  On this planet, a bleep plus a blorp makes a blat."

So, I don't think he referred to OHOL there.

jasonrohrer wrote:

But also, why does the lore matter so much to you?

Well knowing or not knowing the lore affects one's perspective of the game.  Also, the lore might help with future ideas or concepts or to test if they fit.

I understand that you don't care about the lore, and I don't mean to say that you should, but that these people can develop cars so fast would feel weird were this game a historical simulator.  It doesn't feel so weird for a futuristic sci-fi game.

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#16 2019-12-01 13:22:43

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,000

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

CatX wrote:

  That is what I think Spoonwood meant to do: To describe to Jason that the background of the Eves is confusing and open to interpretation

Well, I didn't have that in mind with the above, but do think that it's possible that the game could be more compelling if the background of the Eves were fleshed out more.  Two other games that I've played, both sci-fi futuristic games, are RimWorld and Oxygen Not Included.  In both of those games there exist backstories to characters.  Those backstories don't do much for helping one to play the game.  But, I do think they make those games more compelling than were it the case that such backstories didn't exist.

I do think that all of the characters in OHOL are so similar, or differ implausibly because of race, makes for a bigger problem.  Playing with different skilled characters in both Oxygen Not Included and RimWorld leaves one with different feelings because games play other rather differently.  That sort of opportunity isn't available in OHOL at present.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-01 13:29:09)

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#17 2019-12-02 07:07:52

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,738

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

The game takes place in the realm of thought experiments.

It is "in the future," because the thought experiment is about the future.

But this world is obviously not earth.... it is 50,000x bigger than earth, and it has no oceans.  So there was no apocalypse here.  There are no ruins.

The world is the imaginary space inside which this thought experiment plays out:

"If we had to start over from scratch, but kept all of our knowledge, how long would it take us to get back to iPhones?" where iPhones are a placeholder for whatever sufficiently advanced tech we can imagine.


But that thought experiment involves survival too, which is one of the things that would slow us down.  We have to eat, and keep warm, and fend off natural threats, and have babies to keep the civilization going.  Obviously, we wouldn't get back to iPhones in one generation.  It would take hundreds of years.  Might it take thousands of years?  Might it take longer the second time around than the first?  Maybe the knowledge doesn't help.  Maybe it was all about bootstrapping infrastructure.  Might we never get there the second time around?  Maybe we'd lose the thread.  Maybe all the "right place at the right time" moments wouldn't play out the same way.  Maybe retreading the same ground is impossible.


All that said, so far, this game has been a pretty lousy embodiment of that thought experiment.  The answer is that people get back to diesel engines in a generation or two!

In recent times, I've been throwing in a few monkey wrenches that make failure more likely.  But I've always been somewhat disappointed that the progress up through 3000+ craftable items didn't take longer....

In the end, the thought experiment seems to have been an inspiration point for a game that ended up not really being about that thought experiment.


The other thing the game is about is the deep mystery of civilization.  How did we get here?  What guided us here?  How do we cooperate across generations?  How do we make sense of the world we inherit?  Who were these people who built all this stuff, and why did they build it, and what were their intentions?

That mystery is part of the "tech progression" thought experiment.  The "it might take longer, or even never happen at all" hypothesis embodies that mystery.  We don't know how the hell we actually got here.  We tell stories about it, but we don't really know.


Anyway, the game ended up being a pretty solid embodiment of that mystery, so that's good.  In the end, the mystery is far more interesting than the tech progression thought experiment.  The thought experiment is just a question that spurs various answers.

The mystery is the unfathomable foundation of our being as people.

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#18 2019-12-02 07:34:12

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,000

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

Thanks for that Jason.

I think I'm still onto something with this thread since if the "we" in OHOL is too dissimilar from "us" in the real world, then the thought experiment only goes so far.

I'm also confused about one thing.  You say that there are no ruins.  What is that monolith that Grim posted a picture of then?

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-02 08:01:33)

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#19 2019-12-02 19:33:44

WalrusesConquer
Member
Registered: 2018-07-11
Posts: 492

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

Spoonwood wrote:

Thanks for that Jason.

I think I'm still onto something with this thread since if the "we" in OHOL is too dissimilar from "us" in the real world, then the thought experiment only goes so far.

I'm also confused about one thing.  You say that there are no ruins.  What is that monolith that Grim posted a picture of then?

Sonething left over from the original apocalypse. You'd fill them with gold and add a horse to wipe out the world. It was changed because it was too easy


Recent favorite lives:
Favio Pheonix,Les Nana,Cloud Charles, Rosa Colo [fed my little bro] Lucas Dawn [husband of magnolia] Jasmine Yu,Chogiwa, Tae (Jazz meister)Gillian Yellow (adoptive husband),Jason Dua, Arya Stark, Sophie Cucci, Cerenity Ergo ,Owner of Boris The Goose,Being Maria's mom, Santa's helper.

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#20 2019-12-02 22:40:05

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,000

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

WalrusesConquer wrote:

Sonething left over from the original apocalypse. You'd fill them with gold and add a horse to wipe out the world. It was changed because it was too easy

So Jason just hasn't removed them?  Or are they there as a reminder about the history of the game?

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#21 2019-12-03 18:18:12

Stormyzabeast
Member
Registered: 2018-09-26
Posts: 150

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

I think they're just there for us "old timers" to remember the good old days lol. I love seeing them


I am Eve Toadvine. I name my kids Alex, Jason, Jake, Holly and Disney characters. Forager and road builder extraordinaire!

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#22 2019-12-03 18:41:22

The_Anabaptist
Member
Registered: 2018-11-14
Posts: 364

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

Them obelisks are just a glitch in the matrix.  Here take this blue pill and all will be well with you.

The_Anabaptist

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#23 2020-01-07 03:20:41

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,000

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

jasonrohrer wrote:

But that thought experiment involves survival too, which is one of the things that would slow us down.  We have to eat, and keep warm, and fend off natural threats, and have babies to keep the civilization going.  Obviously, we wouldn't get back to iPhones in one generation.  It would take hundreds of years.  Might it take thousands of years?  Might it take longer the second time around than the first?  Maybe the knowledge doesn't help.  Maybe it was all about bootstrapping infrastructure.  Might we never get there the second time around?  Maybe we'd lose the thread.  Maybe all the "right place at the right time" moments wouldn't play out the same way.  Maybe retreading the same ground is impossible.

All that said, so far, this game has been a pretty lousy embodiment of that thought experiment.  The answer is that people get back to diesel engines in a generation or two!

In recent times, I've been throwing in a few monkey wrenches that make failure more likely.  But I've always been somewhat disappointed that the progress up through 3000+ craftable items didn't take longer

Jason,

Personally, I remember doing Eve runs before the temperature overhaul.  I never would bother with making steel tools myself, I would just fire clay and then gather iron hoping my children to get steel tools up.  There wasn't a need to rush steel tools then, at least not last January (maybe in November shortly after the steam release).  I'd do things like gather seeds for carrots, corn, beans, and sometimes even squash.  I'd gather a bunch of iron for my children to collect.  Hunt a bunch of boars for my descendants security.  Food and security after all come as king in terms of survival, so rushing technology wasn't necessary.

After the temperature overhaul people said that if an Eve didn't make it to an axe, the camp was dead.  Clearly, for any moms not overfeeding children, a large slow fire became imperative.  Farm better crops than berries instead of trying to get out an axe as an Eve?  Probably not a good idea.  Probably better to rush the technology.  And not just for the convenience of transport that a cart enables, but so that moms don't have to eat so much.

Later the pump overhaul and 'ponds will be forever!' came.  I played on bs2 for a bit after it came out.  I suicided away from families with the old well clusters.  I remember getting born as the child of an Eve in particular where we didn't have ponds close.  Alright, so now we've got to rush an axe and a shovel.  And rush to buckets.  I also banged out the parts for a pump in that life (though didn't manage to do the rubber), as I didn't anticipate the deep well lasting that long.  Pumps didn't last all that long as I recall also.  Town survival in one spot?  Going to have to get a working diesel water pump up quickly.  And the game design suggested that players should push it faster when you turned the 'tall/short' object bug into a feature.

I also remember some thread by Tarr shortly after the 'ponds are forever and charcoal pumps will break!' change that the tech pace felt like it was too quick to him.  Sort of like he was getting pushed into that 'diesel engine in a generation or two!' framework.

Later everyone got pushed closer together.  Around then I wrote "On the Decline of Eve Camps" on that basis of what I heard was happening https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6845 and talked about how the meta of an Eve building a camp from scratch had changed.  But since Eves weren't founding camps out in the wild as much from scratch, it stands to reason that players in towns that thrived were closer to more advanced stages of technology more quickly.

You did put more water in wells and pumps later on.  Both of which I will guess might have slowed things down.  But, you also nerfed water regeneration of ponds that only people who play on a low pop server probably have seen pond water regenerate at all.  So towns trying to survive as low tech as possible were bound to have more issues.  Also, with springs dug up drying up other springs, importing water has more limitations.  If importing water has limitations, why the heck wouldn't players push more to a diesel water pump when they can?

Additionally, the current zizag, according to fug (who is Tarr if you were still in doubt about that somehow), again made it so that finding a camp instead of building one made for the better meta.  Again, that results in players getting pushed to more advanced stages of technology more quickly.

Also, apparently, the kerosene wick burner isn't even a stage that you want: https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeData7/issues/558

With that all considered, why wouldn't the game end up as a lousy embodiment of that thought experiment when so many changes emphasize the need for advanced players to rush the tech tree, and a lack of more intermediate and early stages as having serious benefits?

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#24 2020-01-07 14:40:37

Cantface
Member
Registered: 2019-04-14
Posts: 304

Re: Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters

I still don't understand why slowing down tech tree progression is an ongoing thing. Racial restrictions and tool slots have slowed us down enough I feel. Not only that but new players plopping in and finding out they have to go to low pop servers to learn big tech undeterred is confusing. At least we have the option to do so of course but not every new player goes on the forums and will know/care to switch servers for learning time. Good vets are picking up the slack but where they can't towns fall to ruin. Until newer players start getting good we're a lil bit screwed. 2-3 regulars out of ten in a pool where the rest are new is always going to be a struggle for upkeep and advancement.

Last edited by Cantface (2020-01-07 14:43:28)


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