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#1 2019-06-04 05:51:46

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

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Eco has an economy and trading system that works really well.

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People trade with each others for different ressources and there is a real economy that i being made by the players.

So why is there no meaningful trading in OHOL?

In Eco an object like a cart has value because only someone that knows how to make one can actually make a cart.

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This object has value because it is limited depending on the ressources but also the actual skill.

In OHOL everyone can make a cart has long as they have the ressources which makes them valueless in terms of trading since everyone can do it.

This is the same for every object in the game and it's one of the main reasons there is no meaningful trading.

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#2 2019-06-04 06:02:21

Valareos
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Registered: 2019-06-03
Posts: 133

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Such a system would, in my opinion, be against the spirit of the game itself. A brand new Eve working with stone tools shouldn't be able to buy top end clothing with a horse and buggy and lots of stone from E-OHOL.

At minimum, a person should have access to a radio and transmitter, to be able to order supplies from other cities in that fashion.

And to keep in the spirit of the game, someone would need to transport said equipment from point A to B so as not to automagically appear.

Not to mention, where does the coin COME from?  Gold bars to gold coins is an idea, or making silver and such, but then you in the trouble of people MAKING as much money as they need to buy whatever their town needs.

It could be item for item trade, but again, you have to have someone physically transport it.

We cant create a trade website because 1: I got no idea how to tell what server I am on, and 2: Your location is relative. You may be at what you see as 100,200, and someone from another villiage is at their 100,200, but they could be kilometers apart.

Distance and location is an issue with any in game trade as well. How do you know where to transport the stuff to, even if the game had a system in place?

The idea is interesting, but i do not think practical or applicable to OHOL.


Most Memorable Life : Elisabeth Peters, Adopted by Flint Peters.  Gen 59, LD 36

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#3 2019-06-04 06:05:52

Dodge
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Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Valareos wrote:

...


Obviously having some kind off E-Shop with E-coins wouldnt have it's place in the game.

But the main point is that everyone can make everything so trading as no meaning.

Now the trading itself and how it is done is another story.

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#4 2019-06-04 06:10:52

Dodge
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Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

But if objects had value then having an actual monnetary system like gold coins could make sense, but most of the tradings would probably be trading one object for another.

But who knows. An actual monetary system could take off since it would be more practical to transport gold coins than a bunch of objects.

Or if the person trading doesn't want what you're offering then what do you do?

In these sort of situations a monnetary system like gold coins would make sense.

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#5 2019-06-04 06:14:13

Valareos
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Registered: 2019-06-03
Posts: 133

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

For sake of argument, lets assume that a in game trade facilitator existed.

Biggest hurdle is no one knows their absolute location in the world, and I don't see that being changed as it protects against people running from a village they born to to be with the village they building.


Most Memorable Life : Elisabeth Peters, Adopted by Flint Peters.  Gen 59, LD 36

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#6 2019-06-04 06:24:30

Dodge
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Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Valareos wrote:

For sake of argument, lets assume that a in game trade facilitator existed.

Biggest hurdle is no one knows their absolute location in the world, and I don't see that being changed as it protects against people running from a village they born to to be with the village they building.


There are bell towers.

But even in the same town trading would make sense.

But not with the current system.

Right now all the lineages are in some sort of tribal system where everything is shared, but why is there no individual houses?

What if, men had a purpose and you couldnt just pop out babies has a women?

Then travelling between villages and lineages would be a neccessity since otherwise there would be no next generation.

With this system building individual houses or "family houses" would make sense.

Then you add skill and professions and each small family becomes over time a family with a profession, like a smith family, tailor, baker, farmer etc.

Knowledge is passed down to each new generation and the different small families trade with other families depending on their needs and specialty.

It wouldn't be that easy but that's the general idea.

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#7 2019-06-04 06:33:58

Valareos
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Registered: 2019-06-03
Posts: 133

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

I see what you are saying. I would build my own house except that 1: always so much clutter, and 2: I've yet to be in a village without busting my arse to recover something others have left to rot, like say milkweed farms tongue

And the advantage of a house so far is it warms up the area with a single fire.  Beyond that it would be for personal storage, or working on your own projects not related to the village


Most Memorable Life : Elisabeth Peters, Adopted by Flint Peters.  Gen 59, LD 36

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#8 2019-06-04 06:37:53

Dodge
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Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Valareos wrote:

I see what you are saying. I would build my own house except that 1: always so much clutter, and 2: I've yet to be in a village without busting my arse to recover something others have left to rot, like say milkweed farms tongue

And the advantage of a house so far is it warms up the area with a single fire.  Beyond that it would be for personal storage, or working on your own projects not related to the village


Yes right now the system makes it so that living in a tribal village setting is the most logical but irl we dont live that way after a certain point, so there has to be some gameplay changes for this to happen.

Mainly having small families instead of big tribal lineages.

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#9 2019-06-04 06:38:31

lychee
Member
Registered: 2019-05-08
Posts: 328

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Ignore this post, pulling some quotes from the eco wiki that I found interesting in some way or another:

For example, anyone can craft Hewn Logs at a Workbench, even before they've invested a single skill point; however, someone who has invested a skill point into the Hewing skill will become much more efficient at the task (meaning that it will take both fewer resources and less time to craft Hewn Logs, as well as certain other items made from wood). A person who has therefore specialized in the Hewing skill will be able to craft more, craft better, and craft cheaper than someone without it, thereby making them much more effective when selling these items through the in-game economy.

Once the Carpentry Table is up, someone with the Hewing specialty can craft Hewn Logs at greatly increased efficiency.

Example: Player A has taken the Gathering and Advanced Campfire Cooking specialties, and now they need a house to be built. Player B has taken the Hewing specialty, but he is in need of great quantities of food (as chopping trees is tiring work!). Player A and B, therefore, have an incentive to trade with each other -- Player A sells food to Player B, while Player B sells building materials to Player A. Both sides have specialized, and both sides have their needs met by engaging with each other via their world's economic system.

At a research table, you can craft Skill books, which will allow you to unlock new skill trees. Each book requires a large amount of materials, but one book can spawn an infinite number of Skill scrolls, which players use to unlock the skill. Therefore, in theory, only one of each skill book is needed for an entire server of players. Tip: on servers with high populations, it is often more economical to purchase some basic skill scrolls from players who have already crafted a skill book, as you may lack the resources or specializations necessary to easily craft a skill book of your own.

Eco utilizes a bartering system that trades items for items. To set up a trade, right click on the store inside of the building and set the price for a good (designated as the item under the 'Price' half of the trade screen) and the good for sale (designated as the item under the 'For Sale' half of the trade screen). You must then fill the storage of the store with the items you are selling. As players buy from your store, the items you set for the price will go into this storage

The exchange of resources in ECO is based on an entirely player-created economy which players can use to sell goods and services. Unlike most games which only allow players to sell items, Eco allows players to sell contracts for labor, which the game will enforce.

Need someone to build you a house? Take out a contract and they will complete the job, with payment being held in escrow until completion.

This system of contracts forms Eco's "quest" system, where a quest is an actual job needed by another real human in the game, which your player has the specialized skills necessary to complete. Through specialization and game-enforced exchanges and contracts, a rich economy will develop in Eco that forms the basis of all resource allocation.

There are two types of currency in ECO: player credit and minted currency.

PLAYER CREDIT    EDIT
Player currency is created automatically when the player joins the world for the first time. Each player currency is unique to a specific player and can only be acquired by selling items to their Store(s). It may also be gifted with the /pay command

MINTED CURRENCY    EDIT
Main article: Mint

Since player currency is inconvenient, players may want to invest in creating a Mint, which uses certain items to craft currency that can be used globally. Any player may create a currency, assuming there are no laws to prevent it, which others may mint if they have access to the mint. Minted currency can be created from resources as widely available as wood pulp, as rare as gold, or many things in between

INFLATION    EDIT
Any number of Mints can be created, and more currency can be made with various resources. Since any player can mint any currency (except player credits) this behavior can cause rampant inflation. Eco players may use the law system to deal with this in various ways: By restricting the production of Mints or by taxing the creation of new currency

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#10 2019-06-04 06:42:19

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

I really don't like the idea of an invisible currency or ... menus in the game. There are not menus now, you just do things in the world.

So if we want money we just need a rare item that can be carried in VERY large numbers. I posted an idea about a purse some time about and a way to mind coins from gold. The purse could carry up to 20 of any kind of ingot or gold coins (you'd get like 5 from a gold bar)

In order for this to work gold would need some practical values... such as if it were used in medical supplies. Something every town could use. (require a golden needle for stitches? gold needle and thread can't be used for clothing... maybe gold foil for pads to make them portable?)

--
By the way did you see my idea about having some tech tied to the generation of the lineage? It could be essential tech, but for example:
-after gen 5 you can kill a bear with two arrows
-after gen 10 you get a little more iron from a mine
-after gen 20 you can make pies with 5 bites of food...

things like that.


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#11 2019-06-04 07:01:27

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

futurebird wrote:

I really don't like the idea of an invisible currency or ... menus in the game. There are not menus now, you just do things in the world.

So if we want money we just need a rare item that can be carried in VERY large numbers. I posted an idea about a purse some time about and a way to mind coins from gold. The purse could carry up to 20 of any kind of ingot or gold coins (you'd get like 5 from a gold bar)

In order for this to work gold would need some practical values... such as if it were used in medical supplies. Something every town could use. (require a golden needle for stitches? gold needle and thread can't be used for clothing... maybe gold foil for pads to make them portable?)

--
By the way did you see my idea about having some tech tied to the generation of the lineage? It could be essential tech, but for example:
-after gen 5 you can kill a bear with two arrows
-after gen 10 you get a little more iron from a mine
-after gen 20 you can make pies with 5 bites of food...

things like that.

I'm against a menu or invisible currency too i just showed screens of the other game to give an idea of how they do it.

But this is for inspiration and not a copy pasta of the other game

Why would currency need a practical value?

Irl currency works because everyone agrees to use it since it's more practical than trading bags of rice for a house for example.

I saw the idea but the problem with gen skill is that everyone from the same gen gets the skill so in terms of trading it brings you back to everyone can do the same.

But i agree that a gen 1 shouldnt be able to make a diesel engine for example, there is no real progression in tech which makes late game too easy to reach.

But i dont think it should be specifically tied to the number of generation, we could imagine a gen 100 not able to do an engine if nobody from that gen did any engineering even if highly unlikely.

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#12 2019-06-04 07:23:54

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Dodge wrote:

Why would currency need a practical value?

Irl currency works because everyone agrees to use it since it's more practical than trading bags of rice for a house for example.

Because, in human history when currencies are first born they start as portable items with practical value and a long shelf life. Later a lord or government says they will only accept certain kinds of currencies for taxes and that gives them intrinsic value. But, I'm hoping that process or something else I have not imagined can happen in the game rather than just saying "this is the currency of the game" I mean it might work because in games people will hoard anything that can be hoarded. But that's the game giving the value not the gameplay or the players?


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#13 2019-06-04 07:38:46

lychee
Member
Registered: 2019-05-08
Posts: 328

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Im personally a little skeptical of currency in OHOL’s case because I don’t think the markets will be stable enough. Not enough buyers and sellers (or surplus for that matter) to really allow stable prices to occur — the fluctuations would be crazy.

Some thread a while back someone suggested a fixed price that scales with the amount of goods in the market, but IMO that’s just as bad. Rarity doesn’t correlate well with value in OHOL (e.g. candles are super rare in OHOL but they’re also useless!)

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#14 2019-06-04 07:45:45

lychee
Member
Registered: 2019-05-08
Posts: 328

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

If there were to be markets, I sort of prefer to see he stock market method.

Someone posts a selling bid, and someone else could post a selling bid for a different price and quantity, etc. Then buyers could take the bids or post their own buying bids for a price and quantity.

If no one takes, then stuff just remains unsold.

Works fine in a bartering system or any arbitrary currency.

To me, I think a currency backed in some essential resource would make more sense. Gold is non-essential and consequently not valuable in OHOL, so it’s preferable to pick something else like a banknote that represents one bowl of water or one iron ore.

Last edited by lychee (2019-06-04 07:47:13)

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#15 2019-06-04 07:53:41

Valareos
Member
Registered: 2019-06-03
Posts: 133

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Still need people willing to take goods from point A to point B to finalize trade


Most Memorable Life : Elisabeth Peters, Adopted by Flint Peters.  Gen 59, LD 36

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#16 2019-06-04 07:59:55

lychee
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Registered: 2019-05-08
Posts: 328

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

In either case I think ohol is a bit too underpopulated and a lifetime is too short for most markets to work well.

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#17 2019-06-04 08:29:55

DestinyCall
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Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,388

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

I think the closest thing to a market place that would be actually viable in OHOL would be a player-owned vending machine. 

Player A builds the machine and stocks it with a couple of items, setting a sell price for each item. 

Player B access the machine to view the items and the price for each.  Then he decides if he can or will buy something from the vending machine. 

We have cars and airplanes, so a vending machine isn't too far out there.   And it eliminates some of the time-crunch problems related to trying to work out a deal with someone else while both parties are slowly dying of old age or starvation.    The vendor can set-up machines in advance and then the potential buyers can stop buy to make trades whenever they have free time and the need for something specific.

You could potentially set-up entire multiple stores to sell all kinds of things, assuming you had the material to craft enough vending machines.

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#18 2019-06-04 08:41:20

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Well vending machines, stock market etc will maybe be a thing when there is electricity and computers in the game.

A simple form of trading like 2-3 hats or a backpack for a cart is reachable in the current level of tech.

But there is no incentive to do it since everyone can make hats, a backpack or a cart

This is one of the main issue we have for trading in OHOL atm, this plus living in a tribal everything is shared setting.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-06-04 08:41:40)

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#19 2019-06-04 08:51:46

RodneyC86
Member
Registered: 2019-05-11
Posts: 467

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Dodge wrote:

Well vending machines, stock market etc will maybe be a thing when there is electricity and computers in the game.

A simple form of trading like 2-3 hats or a backpack for a cart is reachable in the current level of tech.

But there is no incentive to do it since everyone can make hats, a backpack or a cart

This is one of the main issue we have for trading in OHOL atm, this plus living in a tribal everything is shared setting.

That and no way to make bulk trading easy. No one is going to waste time talking about trading a single article when they could spend the same time crafting it instead .

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#20 2019-06-04 09:07:19

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

RodneyC86 wrote:
Dodge wrote:

Well vending machines, stock market etc will maybe be a thing when there is electricity and computers in the game.

A simple form of trading like 2-3 hats or a backpack for a cart is reachable in the current level of tech.

But there is no incentive to do it since everyone can make hats, a backpack or a cart

This is one of the main issue we have for trading in OHOL atm, this plus living in a tribal everything is shared setting.

That and no way to make bulk trading easy. No one is going to waste time talking about trading a single article when they could spend the same time crafting it instead .


If they couldn't craft the object at all then it would be valuable to the point that discussing the terms of that trade wouldn't be an issue.

For example you have a small family with a house but everyone is naked. As long as you are all indoors it's fine since the temperature is good.

But to stay and work outside you would need clothes, so you decide to trade some of your tools since you're a smith family with the tailor for some clothes BUT if he doesn't want tools then you would need to trade with sheppard for fleece to give to the tailor and get clothes.

In that scenario having a monnetary system would be much more practical but not necessary.

But it wouldn't be neccessarly a single monnetary unit.

Lots of ressources could be used as monnetary unit.

Iron would only have value for a smith since he's the only one that can use it but you could still use it as monnetary exchange until it reaches a smith that can use it.

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#21 2019-06-04 09:19:22

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,388

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

And there are not good options for something that might resemble "currency" in the game because even the smallest item takes up the same amount of space in your backpack.    Even if gold coins were craftable, they would be effectively useless as currency if you could only hold four coins at a time in your bag.

From a logistical standpoint, trading for goods in OHOL is just really cumbersome and unnecessary.  The tribal sharing model has evolved in large part because it is so fast and easy.   Anything else takes too much time and effort for too little benefit.  You only have one hour to live in a town and no reason to horde supplies for the future.   So why bother with trading when it is almost always faster to make a new thing or borrow an existing thing from the village?     There are very few situations where you would save time by asking someone else to make something for you.   I think part of the issue is related to instantaneous crafting.    It's not just that everyone knows how to make everything.   Everything you make is constructed instantly and perfectly, so there's no reason to seek out a craftsman or specialize in a particular trade.     

This situation is created by the interaction of multiple factors.    Honestly, I'm not convinced that this is something that really needs to be fixed right now.   At least, not directly.   I think that trade will naturally evolve once the game state has changed sufficiently to allow for trade.  But trying to force the meta to change in a particular way is risky.  There's no guarantee that the result will be an actual improvement over the current game state, or if it will just create a host of new problems without resolving the intended issue.    I'd rather see development time spent on fixing obvious problems, like storage limitations, and adding interesting new game mechanics, like the new languages.

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#22 2019-06-04 10:02:40

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

DestinyCall wrote:

...

We live in tribes because it's possible and the easiest solution.

But it's made possible only because there is an overabundance of ressources and mainly food, so you dont need to care that much about running out of food.

When was the last time you experienced a food shortage in a village?

You can be as inneficient as you want there will still be enough, that's one of the main reason tribal villages are still the meta.

This and not having small families due to how fertility currently works.

But if only the farmer can cultivate advanced crops, only the cook can make elaborate foods etc, if higher tier foods get a buff and if it wasn't possible to feed a whole village with berries.

Then there would need to be personnal property because the innefficiency and lack of coordination of the tribal system (towns are a big mess) wouldn't make it possible to survive, since 2-3 berry munchers could make the whole village die.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-06-04 10:03:39)

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#23 2019-06-04 10:19:03

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

Food needs a rework too for this, being able to feed a whole village on berries is making higher tier foods that a cook could make useless.

Maybe a slower food drain but less ressources could work along with nerfing berries and buffing higher tier foods

Like a berry bush would only feed you for 2-3 minutes but a pie made by the baker would be enough for 5 minutes but at the same time one wheat would only make two pies. Something along these lines

Food should be something that has value trading and not something that there is just an overanbundance off

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#24 2019-06-04 15:15:22

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,293

Re: Inspiration from the game Eco for economie and trading.

cant help but think of strategy games

there is a market, you put items on market and the price is automatically controlled troughout the world based on quantity

sure if you got steps like 10-20-30-40 and max 100 adobe for 10-20-30 ,,, - 100 pies that helps
this also prevents money sending to one place in the world, so the price of stone can vary but not too much

also this shops need teleport

now hard to imagine everything sold, like pies got plates attached and i would sell te excess pies but need the plates back

but it could be a new sort of category, like luxury resources which are only in parts of the world, regeneratign, like silver or mahagony wood or similar, and then you can only buy it

maybe unique or limited items

but al lthis requires instant transport aka teleporting
maybe a short cooldown and a technology requirement to pass it on
some sort of ai stagecoach which takes items from shop to shop

if you limit shops inside interior of fences then you can somewhat control ownership to access

jason knows rust so you can call a blueprint
either have low level blueprints easy to obtain or only higher level things require a blueprint

in rust you can find this things or loot from others, or buy for scrap or find an item and make a blueprint out of  it possibly losing the item

like you can find ancient ruins which might have a cart blueprint, by taking apart a cart, your family can build carts

so like adobe tech should be no blueprint so you can gather sticks and stones and make a viable village

then maybe a replacement for all those things with steel, maybe with extra qualities like you can move a metal kiln slowly and the fire lasts 10 sec longer but requires a lot of new items
doesn't have to be much different, like just recolor a bit and holds more items

in rust you can convert items to scrap and use scap to get blueprints or weapons
so kinda geets it's own value which is mostly fixed over time, and the higher tech needs more scrap so cant say it loses value or inflates quick

Last edited by pein (2019-06-04 15:17:08)


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