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#1 2019-05-30 16:56:08

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

I was in a building with stone walls and full clothes and my temperature was close to perfect.

I did the same in a building made of ancient stone walls and the difference between in and out the building was minimal.

Can someone confirm i think ancient stone walls dont work

Havent tested the other type of walls.

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#2 2019-05-30 17:15:59

Grim_Arbiter
Member
Registered: 2018-12-30
Posts: 942

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

You mean insulate? Like heat insulation? It could very well have been missed.


--Grim
I'm flying high. But the worst is never first, and there's a person that'll set you straight. Cancelling the force within my brain. For flying high. The simulator has been disengaged.

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#3 2019-05-30 17:25:51

Keyin
Member
Registered: 2019-05-09
Posts: 257

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

Yeah just tested it with large slow fire in it, was the same temp as outside

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#4 2019-05-30 18:57:41

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

I have a 9x9 plaster wall grassland forge, 9x9 is the interior, with every tile inside of the plaster walls with wood flooring (yes... underneath the engine has wood flooring... I made a second engine for my building... I had a newcomen atmosopheric core left over from my pump when it failed).  If I stand near the center of the forge, I get the increased temperature effect.  But, if I'm on the edge of the forge, inside, I do NOT get the increased temperature effect.  Someone on bug-discuss in the discord told me that if a building is more than 6x6 not every tile will work for temperature purposes.

I thought with the airspace being 12x12 now, such a building would work everywhere.  Do I misunderstand how things should work, or is there a bug in how buildings work?  Is the above with a stone building experiencing the same sort of problem, because of the size of the building?

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#5 2019-05-30 19:09:12

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

Since they were both less than 13x13 i assumed it was due to the walls being different but it could be actually related to the size i dont know.

Either way they dont seem to work.

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#6 2019-06-04 18:30:33

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

Bump

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#7 2019-06-04 18:32:02

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

Good bump.


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omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#8 2019-06-04 18:41:12

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,737

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

Checking...

Turns out that the stone walls with signs do not insulate at all.

Any chance that these buildings you're testing have signs on them?

I'll fix that, of course.  But the other stone walls (ancient and not) look fine.

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#9 2019-06-04 18:46:51

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Checking...

Turns out that the stone walls with signs do not insulate at all.

Any chance that these buildings you're testing have signs on them?

I'll fix that, of course.  But the other stone walls (ancient and not) look fine.

Not 100% sure but i think there wasn't any signs, maybe box etc prevent insulation.

Also didnt test adobe walls and all the colored ones. Or pine walls.

Maybe oven blocks it too

And maybe standing at the edge of the room Vs standing in the middle

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#10 2019-06-04 19:01:19

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,737

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

What do you mean about oven blocking it?

Also, keep in mind that the window is 13x13, but centered on you.  The entire room must be contained in that window (all walls), and the entire thing must be surrounded by walls and doors, and the entire middle must have floors under it, like this:

WWWWWWW
WFFFFFW
WFFFFFW
WFFFFFW
WWWDWWW

The 13x13 window doesn't mean you can have a 13x13 indoor room, unless you stand right in the middle so that all walls fall inside the window.

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#11 2019-06-04 19:05:03

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

No signs at all on my plaster wall forge.

I do think that my plaster wall forge is entirely contained like that.  When the temperature didn't work right on the edges, I went about checking the walls by hovering over all of the spots with the cursor (a better test would be to try to move to each wall spot in retrospect).

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-06-04 19:08:20)

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#12 2019-06-04 19:05:07

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

jasonrohrer wrote:

What do you mean about oven blocking it?

Also, keep in mind that the window is 13x13, but centered on you.  The entire room must be contained in that window (all walls), and the entire thing must be surrounded by walls and doors, and the entire middle must have floors under it, like this:

WWWWWWW
WFFFFFW
WFFFFFW
WFFFFFW
WWWDWWW

The 13x13 window doesn't mean you can have a 13x13 indoor room, unless you stand right in the middle so that all walls fall inside the window.

So what is the maximum size room to avoid any cold spot?

Like an oven or box etc could prevent the wall behind to work?

I just remember a kitchen with ancient walls not insulating, dont think there was sign but there could have been tbh.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-06-04 19:05:23)

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#13 2019-06-04 19:18:06

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,737

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

An oven, box, etc should have no effect on the wall behind it.  But if there's no floor under that oven or box, that's a problem.

Maximum interiorroom size to avoid any cold spot is 6x6, I think, like this, where Y is where you are standing:

WWWWWWWW
WFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFW
WFFFFFYW
WWWDWWWW

If you walk to the West of yourself by 6 tiles, you find a wall.  Same to the North.  Thus, the entire room can fit in the 13x13 window centered around you, even though you are in the corer.

If you do this in a 7x7 room, the corners and edges of the room will be cold.

If you do this in an 8x8 room, the 2-tile-wide edges will be cold.

Etc.

In a 11x11 interior room, if you stand dead-center, you will have an indoor effect, but if you take one step off center, you won't have the indoor effect anymore.

This is obviously counter-intuitive behavior.  Ideally, this would work for any sized room.  But computing this stuff is expensive, because we have to sample the map around the player to find out what's there.  So there has to be some sensible limit to how far we look.

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#14 2019-06-04 19:27:24

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

jasonrohrer wrote:

An oven, box, etc should have no effect on the wall behind it.  But if there's no floor under that oven or box, that's a problem.

Maximum interiorroom size to avoid any cold spot is 6x6, I think, like this, where Y is where you are standing:

WWWWWWWW
WFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFW
WFFFFFYW
WWWDWWW

If you walk to the West of yourself by 6 tiles, you find a wall.  Same to the North.  Thus, the entire room can fit in the 13x13 window centered around you, even though you are in the corer.

If you do this in a 7x7 room, the corners and edges of the room will be cold.

If you do this in an 8x8 room, the 2-tile-wide edges will be cold.

Etc.

In a 11x11 interior room, if you stand dead-center, you will have an indoor effect, but if you take one step off center, you won't have the indoor effect anymore.

This is obviously counter-intuitive behavior.  Ideally, this would work for any sized room.  But computing this stuff is expensive, because we have to sample the map around the player to find out what's there.  So there has to be some sensible limit to how far we look.

Isn't it possible to make the "heat ping" bounce if it reaches a wall?

For example if you are near a wall to your east the ping recognize it and allows more space in the opposite direction (west)

So if x+1 = wall then allow to go until x-10 for example to look for a wall else you can only go to x-5 or something like that

Basically detect walls and recalculate in the opposite direction if you hit a wall.

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#15 2019-06-04 19:38:26

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,737

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

Something like that is possible, I suppose, but maybe tricky in the edge cases.

Currently, there's no heat ping, but just a window of tiles around the player that we sample.  Is there an enclosed room in this window, yes or no?  You could imagine re-centering the window elsewhere, if there's a wall near the player, but there are some cases where that would not be the correct thing to do...

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#16 2019-06-04 19:50:56

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

jasonrohrer wrote:

An oven, box, etc should have no effect on the wall behind it.  But if there's no floor under that oven or box, that's a problem.

Maximum interiorroom size to avoid any cold spot is 6x6, I think, like this, where Y is where you are standing:

WWWWWWWW
WFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFW
WFFFFFYW
WWWDWWWW

If you walk to the West of yourself by 6 tiles, you find a wall.  Same to the North.  Thus, the entire room can fit in the 13x13 window centered around you, even though you are in the corer.

If you do this in a 7x7 room, the corners and edges of the room will be cold.

If you do this in an 8x8 room, the 2-tile-wide edges will be cold.

Etc.

In a 11x11 interior room, if you stand dead-center, you will have an indoor effect, but if you take one step off center, you won't have the indoor effect anymore.

This is obviously counter-intuitive behavior.  Ideally, this would work for any sized room.  But computing this stuff is expensive, because we have to sample the map around the player to find out what's there.  So there has to be some sensible limit to how far we look.

Alright, so my 9x9 plaster wall forge shouldn't have worked apparently.

Problem: I need space for an iron stack, kindling pile, and firewood stack inside of my smithy.  I also need space for two adobe.  The kindling stack either needs to go off to the side or above the forges.  I need bowls and plates also in there and a spot for a pile of flatties at the very least.  I can get out more than 6 iron at a time in one fire, so sometimes I can use more than 6 flat rocks.  Firing more than 6 crucibles at a time can get accomplished also.  The problem is even worse once I start running an engine.  Shorter description of the problem:

Problem Statement Two: Building is supposed to increase player efficiency by means of temperature, but will end up decreasing it, because of severe spacing issues for a good smithy.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-06-05 01:58:05)

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#17 2019-06-06 04:13:31

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

Alright, I started work on destroying my plaster wall forge... even going so far as to destroy some of the adobe walls.

It's more efficient to have one forge for speed of making a diesel engine or radio or something else, I suppose using the newcomen multipurpose engine, but it's more building to have a second forge for the engine... even if one has to move stuff around or one has to eat up the forge burning when one runs the hammer or the roller.  So, I don't have an exact grounding for an argument in fundamental game concepts as to why one forge is better than two.

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#18 2019-06-06 05:09:42

Valareos
Member
Registered: 2019-06-03
Posts: 133

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

So, a 6x6 room is currently the largest space to ensure full heat. (overall size 8x8 with walls, or 64 tiles)

But, you CAN have a bigger work building, provided you make rooms. You can put 2 6x6 rooms as shown, and use up an overall size of 15x8 with walls (120 tiles) for a savings of 8 tiles!
Of course you need a fire in each room, and the center door set on spring, but it still less room than 2 full sized buildings

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
WFFFFFFWFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFWFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFWFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFDFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFWFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFWFFFFFFW
WWWWDWWWWWWWDWW

Most Memorable Life : Elisabeth Peters, Adopted by Flint Peters.  Gen 59, LD 36

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#19 2019-06-06 08:57:24

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

Valareos wrote:

So, a 6x6 room is currently the largest space to ensure full heat. (overall size 8x8 with walls, or 64 tiles)

But, you CAN have a bigger work building, provided you make rooms. You can put 2 6x6 rooms as shown, and use up an overall size of 15x8 with walls (120 tiles) for a savings of 8 tiles!
Of course you need a fire in each room, and the center door set on spring, but it still less room than 2 full sized buildings

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
WFFFFFFWFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFWFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFWFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFDFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFWFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFWFFFFFFW
WWWWDWWWWWWWDWW

You dont need a fire in the room to be at good temp anymore, Good clothes and walls are enough.

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#20 2019-06-06 09:02:35

Valareos
Member
Registered: 2019-06-03
Posts: 133

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

Dodge wrote:

You dont need a fire in the room to be at good temp anymore, Good clothes and walls are enough.

Thanks, I learn something new every day!


Most Memorable Life : Elisabeth Peters, Adopted by Flint Peters.  Gen 59, LD 36

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#21 2019-06-06 17:24:59

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Ancient walls dont seem to isolate.

Someone else made a screenshot of my partially destroyed forge spot:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachment … height=499

Doors got moved due to some other reasons, and I destroyed my kilns for reasons that aren't relevant with respect to buildings.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-06-06 17:26:35)

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