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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2020-11-30 02:18:56

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,727

Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

What?

--If you live to old age, you will be born as the baby of one of your descendants, if possible, in your next life.

--If you die younger than old age, you will be born in some other family in your next life (just like it currently works).

--This will occur with no time limit, so if you die of old age and come back tomorrow, and if some of your descendants have survived, you will still be born to them.

--If being born to your descendants is possible, you will NOT be considered to fill an Eve slot.

--For women, descendants are daughters, granddaughters, etc.

--For men, descendants are nieces and their descendants.



Why?

--To give you some sense of continuity across multiple lives, so you can keep working on pet projects long-term.

--To making playing another life "right now" fundamentally different from playing another life tomorrow.

--To make you really care about the survival of your offspring, beyond the "gimmick" of fitness scores.

--To make your own kids really more important than your sister's kids, again beyond the fitness score ramifications.

--To make stealing to keep your family alive make sense.

--To make hoarding and trading make more sense, beyond the "gimmick" of forced trading due to biome specialization.

--To make dying young feel very different than dying of old age.

--To give private property more utility.



Down-sides?

--"Saying goodbye" at the end of a life won't feel quite as real (though it still will be the end of one story and the start of the next).

--A little bit less variety between lives (though players can decide to get born somewhere else next life by dying a bit younger than 60, and there will be plenty of cases where you die young by accident, or have no offspring survive).

--The ability to continue projects, life-after-life, reduces the uniqueness of the game.... though there's plenty of chance to mess it up.  So there still will be a unique kind of drama that no other game has (when your last baby dies, and you just KNOW that you've lost your thread with this family forever).

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#2 2020-11-30 02:35:33

DiscardedSlinky
DubiousSlinker
From: Discord
Registered: 2019-05-06
Posts: 623

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

Is this going to be a choice to be reborn or is it automatic? Sometimes I just want to move on from a town. I don't want to be forced to play in a single town every life just because I live to 60


I'm Slinky. I /blush. I also don't read essays.

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#3 2020-11-30 03:01:23

wondible
Member
Registered: 2018-04-19
Posts: 832

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

jasonrohrer wrote:

--To give you some sense of continuity across multiple lives, so you can keep working on pet projects long-term.

Sales, infinite trucks, and now continuity. 2020 Really is the end times.


https://onemap.wondible.com/ -- https://wondible.com/ohol-family-trees/ -- https://wondible.com/ohol-name-picker/
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#4 2020-11-30 03:28:07

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,813

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

jasonrohrer wrote:

Down-sides?

If one lives to 60, one can't get born somewhere else and bring specialty resources to that place (without using /die) from another family's biome, if one has descendants still living when one logs in. 

Maybe it might make some sense to put blank paper, and a charcoal pencil inside of a property fence for exchange purposes in an anticipated future life?  Or maybe that way you could have some sort of story that you hear from your descendants?

Thinking more about it this mechanic has a very strange aspect to it as another downside.  If a family lives and you were male, then you have descendants.  But, a woman can avoid the mechanic while still living to 60, by becoming homesick.  It's very odd for men to have descendants as a result of the actions of others without a way to opt out of having descendants, while women can opt out of having descendants by getting and remaining homesick.  It strikes me as creepy and sexist.

If you think the above wrong, how would male characters living to 60 opt out of getting reborn in the same family while still having descendants without... perish the thought... killing their nieces, sisters, and even mother?

If this game had mating mechanics as necessary for men to have descendants, the above wouldn't apply.  I don't think I like this as it stands.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-11-30 13:28:08)

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#5 2020-11-30 06:26:51

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 307

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

Bad content. Stoking tribalism won't work. We like cooperating.

Fix baby distribution, it's broke.

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#6 2020-11-30 06:28:06

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 307

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

I love these "oops, my game is communist" updates, it's funny as fuck

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#7 2020-11-30 07:26:53

happynova
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 362

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

Hmm.    Well, that definitely solves one of my problems with the game, which is that sometimes I log on telling myself I'll only play one life, but the thought of what cool unknown things my next life might bring seduces me into playing again, and again, and next thing I know I've wasted an afternoon when I was supposed to be doing something else.  If I know it's just going to be the exact same old thing all over again each time, it'll be much easier to make myself log off and go do the laundry.  (And ten times easier, still, if it wasn't an even an enjoyable life.)  So thanks, I guess?

Getting to see how the family is doing the next day, if they're still around is cool, though.  Things have inevitably changed by then, too, so that's less boring. 

Also, question: how do curses fit into this?  What if you're supposed to be born back into the same family, but you're prevented by being cursed?  You still don't get born here, right?  Come to think of it, I suspect I'm going to have to start curse people a lot more. Some folks are tolerable for an hour, but the thought of being stuck with them life after life after life is appalling.

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#8 2020-11-30 07:28:42

fug
Member
Registered: 2019-08-21
Posts: 1,014

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

Is this going to be a choice to be reborn or is it automatic? Sometimes I just want to move on from a town. I don't want to be forced to play in a single town every life just because I live to 60

I mean you can always just /die if you don't want to continue somewhere.


I feel like this should have been done earlier as this should hopefully cut down on /die babies as people no longer need to cycle through a bunch of families to get to a specific place.

The thing I don't see coming from this update:

Really don't think we're going to be stealing from each other. Races are too interwoven when the games population drops back to normal for people to turn on each other. Currently, with all the families it's probably more okay to loot each other as there's tons of the same race families on the server.

Fun gimmicks with the update:

The town youth can fundamentally judge whether it's worth letting grandma come back as you can curse people and block their respawn. With four tokens per hour a small council can form within a town and essentially vote people out of their respawn which while very unlikely to happen is a possibility.


Worlds oldest SID baby.

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#9 2020-11-30 07:31:00

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 307

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

fug wrote:
DiscardedSlinky wrote:

Is this going to be a choice to be reborn or is it automatic? Sometimes I just want to move on from a town. I don't want to be forced to play in a single town every life just because I live to 60

I mean you can always just /die if you don't want to continue somewhere.


I feel like this should have been done earlier as this should hopefully cut down on /die babies as people no longer need to cycle through a bunch of families to get to a specific place.

The thing I don't see coming from this update:

Really don't think we're going to be stealing from each other. Races are too interwoven when the games population drops back to normal for people to turn on each other. Currently, with all the families it's probably more okay to loot each other as there's tons of the same race families on the server.

Fun gimmicks with the update:

The town youth can fundamentally judge whether it's worth letting grandma come back as you can curse people and block their respawn. With four tokens per hour a small council can form within a town and essentially vote people out of their respawn which while very unlikely to happen is a possibility.

Wouldn't that use of curses be a bit inappropriate? Cursing should be reserved for grifers.

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#10 2020-11-30 10:30:29

Eve Troll
Member
Registered: 2020-07-07
Posts: 224

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

This is probably the best change to ever happen in this game.

You go jason!

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#11 2020-11-30 11:20:13

wondible
Member
Registered: 2018-04-19
Posts: 832

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

fug wrote:

The town youth can fundamentally judge whether it's worth letting grandma come back as you can curse people and block their respawn.

Should exile count as well?


https://onemap.wondible.com/ -- https://wondible.com/ohol-family-trees/ -- https://wondible.com/ohol-name-picker/
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#12 2020-11-30 12:05:57

Eve Troll
Member
Registered: 2020-07-07
Posts: 224

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

wondible wrote:
fug wrote:

The town youth can fundamentally judge whether it's worth letting grandma come back as you can curse people and block their respawn.

Should exile count as well?

Why would this ever happen? Honestly feels like knit picking when there is nothing to knit pick. I have respawned to my own kids and grand kids a number of times and only recieved excitement and thrill from my family members. Griefers hardly live to 60 and this will likely strengthen the curse protection surrounding individual families.

As much as saying goodbye might not carry the same weight as it used to, saying hello again will. It will create a stronger sense of community and collective drive to better the family you chose to use this mechanic for.

If you dont like this mechanic nothing is stopping you from dying at 59.

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#13 2020-11-30 13:28:34

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,813

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

jasonrohrer wrote:

Down-sides?

Male players can't opt out this system if living to 60 as well as female players can, since, at least somewhat skilled female players can just not have children at all by being homesick during their fertile years.  What if this system only got activated if a player is not homesick at old age death?  That would enable male players to opt out of this system by dying while homesick.  It would enable female players to opt out while still having children also.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-11-30 18:52:00)

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#14 2020-11-30 18:43:38

wondible
Member
Registered: 2018-04-19
Posts: 832

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

Spoonwood wrote:

female players can just not having children at all by being homesick during their fertile years.

Childless females operate the same as males for gene score, I presume this would be the same.


https://onemap.wondible.com/ -- https://wondible.com/ohol-family-trees/ -- https://wondible.com/ohol-name-picker/
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#15 2020-11-30 18:54:13

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,813

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

wondible wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:

female players can just not having children at all by being homesick during their fertile years.

Childless females operate the same as males for gene score, I presume this would be the same.

Huh?  Men get nieces depending on whether their sister(s) have children.  Did I miss something about gene score in the above?

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#16 2020-11-30 19:09:07

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,336

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

So i either live to 60 to get back OR i just /die until i'm born there, got you.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Why?

*LIST*

Yeah no that's not gonna happen, villages are usually gone after 1-2 days so there's really not point in going into extreme lengths to keep them going PLUS you NEED other families (races) to get vital ressources so killing them off or stealing from them is shooting yourself in the foot.

Even if you keep them alive over others, new families will end up so far appart that "your" village will be doomed.

Any long term sense of continuity is destined to fail in a map (spawn radius) that keeps extending idefinitly.

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#17 2020-11-30 20:02:11

Eve Troll
Member
Registered: 2020-07-07
Posts: 224

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

Totally agree dodge. Raiding and stealing will not happen as long as families are symbiotic. Trading resources does sorta happen. But its basically just people dumping resources from their family onto other families on the server. There isnt really a purpose behind hoarding and etc given the fact that if one family isnt successful the remaining families cannot be successful. Besides gingers who can survive without the other families comfortably once late game is reached. Also with the map banding, trading is pretty difficult since you have to travel to the family you need resources from first to even know what they want in return, then travel a fair distance just to get it, travel back, then travel home. With the spawns spreading families out this process could take most of your life. Plus communication is insanely difficult and many people won't give you the time of day, even with paper, pencil, and rubber ball. And just taking what you need can result in being killed or cursed.

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#18 2020-11-30 20:35:11

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,813

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

Dodge wrote:

Why?

If you keep getting reborn into your family easily without being rude by using /die, then how will members of your family get resources?  I mean, if experts players choose to play this way as much as possible, then how would they get those resources other than by scavenging dead towns, exchanging with other families, or stealing from them?

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#19 2020-11-30 21:18:18

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,727

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

If you're cursed out of the area where your descendants are living, then you will be blocked from getting born there.



As far as the "just one more play" loop of living in different places in the next life, I suppose it appeals to some people and not others.

I personally find myself only playing a single hour, NOT finishing my life's project before I die, and then feeling kinda frustrated, and then NOT wanting to start a totally different life somewhere else and start a new project.  So for me, there's really no danger of playing OHOL all night by accident.

But if you want to play a different family next time, just die at 55 instead of 60.



And Dodge, as far as "just /die until you get back there," that only works if enough time has passed to clear up your lineage ban, right?

The next morning, obviously /die to round-robin into the same family would work.



One of my visions for the game was always that parents would REALLY feel like parents, and act like parents.  Keep the kids locked indoors until they're old enough to be safe on their own.  Load them down with clothing, food, and weapons before letting them go out on their own.  Give them careful instructions to maximize their survival.  And especially at the end of the parent's life, say goodbye with important advice.  "Keep the farm going, don't let any other family steal from our pie cellar, and take care of those great grandkids for me!"

If you're hoping that your descendants survive the night, until you can come back and rejoin them tomorrow morning, all of that stuff would make a lot more sense.  You'd REALLY want to set your descendants up for survival, if you were hoping that they were going to survive without out until you had a chance to return 8 hours later.


Fitness scores were a way of trying to "force" this to happen, but I always wanted a way for it to happen naturally.  Some players don't care about scores, and other players won't care about this, I guess....

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#20 2020-11-30 21:38:32

Uncreative Guy
Member
Registered: 2020-08-15
Posts: 38

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

jasonrohrer wrote:

as far as "just /die until you get back there," that only works if enough time has passed to clear up your lineage ban, right?

In my own experience, no.  I’ve personally /died back to work on projects before, pressing ‘reborn’ within seconds after I die.  Usually, I have to cycle through all of the other families again, but it’s still possible.  Sometimes, I’m even born directly back into the fam without having to /die.  You can check my past lives for an example of this.  32 days ago, I was Sun Pickens, and then was reborn as his second cousin a minute later, Clayre Pickens.


I’m not creative enough to make a creative signature which explains my noncreative nickname of Uncreative Guy.

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#21 2020-11-30 22:03:38

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,336

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

jasonrohrer wrote:

And Dodge, as far as "just /die until you get back there," that only works if enough time has passed to clear up your lineage ban, right?

You can just wait out the ban 1-2 hours or wathever the village wont have changed much

But that's a detail anyway, the point is that without long term continuity it's just a bunch of villages growing and dying getting lost in an infinitly expanding map, you dont really care if they make it a tiny bit longer so it doesn't matter, it's like they dont even exist in the world they have no identity because they dont have the time to build one.

Remember during the rift when you where eager to find out what happened to every family, if they survived or not, what happened to the world etc.

That's what i'm talking about, the rift was bad because it was a rift, but the arc, the ongoing story that was happening in a truly persistant world, that was the good part it made players really care about families and villages to the point where families would steal from each other when the ressources eventually got low and wars between them would insue, there was this cooperation element between families missing because you didn't need them but now it's there and it only needs to be refined and added to a world that makes sense instead of using multiple complicated mechanics as an unsatisfying substitute to a world where this happens naturally.

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#22 2020-11-30 22:08:57

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,813

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

Uncreative Guy wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:

as far as "just /die until you get back there," that only works if enough time has passed to clear up your lineage ban, right?

In my own experience, no.  I’ve personally /died back to work on projects before, pressing ‘reborn’ within seconds after I die.  Usually, I have to cycle through all of the other families again, but it’s still possible.  Sometimes, I’m even born directly back into the fam without having to /die.  You can check my past lives for an example of this.  32 days ago, I was Sun Pickens, and then was reborn as his second cousin a minute later, Clayre Pickens.

It would be more informative to share your leader board name here or to a relevant party elsewhere.  At least at some point in time, all of the information of all your lives got onto your list in succession on the leader board.  I'd guess that even if you've played enough since then, your leader board name could get used to fairly easily confirm that you played those lives on the same account.

I did see that Sun Pickens and Clayre Pickens lived a generation apart.

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#23 2020-11-30 22:14:13

Uncreative Guy
Member
Registered: 2020-08-15
Posts: 38

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the colors on the family tree the same for each person.  Sun and Clayre, at least for me, both are pink with teal outlines.


I’m not creative enough to make a creative signature which explains my noncreative nickname of Uncreative Guy.

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#24 2020-11-30 22:19:53

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,813

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

Dodge wrote:

But that's a detail anyway, the point is that without long term continuity it's just a bunch of villages growing and dying getting lost in an infinitly expanding map, you dont really care if they make it a tiny bit longer so it doesn't matter, it's like they dont even exist in the world they have no identity because they dont have the time to build one.

Personally speaking, when I've played as Eve, such as yesterday, I've sometimes cared somewhat that my family makes it just a tiny bit longer.  I mean, as an Eve, if I only cared about direct descendants, I don't think I would try to get steel based technology up, or push towards the tools for a cart as I've tried to do on some Eve runs.  I'd just run around and help everyone eat wild food. 

Yes, they don't have much of an identity in one sense.  But, I think people kind of get to figure that out for themselves, and I wouldn't want to force my version of what I think they should be onto other people when they aren't harmful.  I mean, if you were/are a parent in real life Dodge, would you want to push an identity onto your children, grandchildren, and even further Dodge?  Or would that be something that they would have to figure out for themselves?  Also, how can people be creative or express their personalities in this game if we push what they should be onto to them too much?  Do you think you can push identities onto people too much, and they will feel as if they have lived?  Because I for one don't.

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#25 2020-11-30 22:21:15

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,813

Re: Coming soon: get reborn to your descendants after living to old age

Uncreative Guy wrote:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the colors on the family tree the same for each person.  Sun and Clayre, at least for me, both are pink with teal outlines.

I don't use Wondible's family trees (which isn't to say I have a single thing against it).  Maybe someone else can speak up here.

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