My worries with the homesick update

Coconut Fruit · 2020-03-14 00:01:05

I'm fine with current language learning system.

Keyin · 2020-03-14 00:18:50

jasonrohrer wrote:

No, progress is NOT reset if you skip a generation.
You inherit your mother's progress, even if you never hear the language yourself.
So if you learn 10%, and your great great granddaughter is around the language, she will bump up to 20%.

Sorry Jason, I misinterpreted this:

jasonrohrer wrote:

BTW, if a generation goes by with NO language exposure, the learning of that lang is lost (that hasn't changed... you only inherit your mother's language learning if you hear the lang yourself as a BB).

Thanks for elaborating further.

I still dislike auto-language filter learning to a degree though.

One big frustration is when I learn how to say a phrase in another language, but then the children of the people I am talking to have a weaker filter.

Ex: I learn SCRI AIE SCRO = YOU ARE YU.

I then try to talk to the baby Yu. SCRI AIE SCRO but it comes out different, because her filter is weaker than her mothers...

She hears something like SCROU ARE SCRU and responds with "???"

In the past this wasn't a big deal because you either knew 0%, <10%, or 100%(due to spam typing)... but now it is incredibly frustrating having to guess what clusters they've learned and having to adjust my speech for each individual.

Last edited by Keyin (2020-03-14 00:20:19)

Saolin · 2020-03-14 06:28:21

I had a similar concern that language would be an issue (it will!) but it's regular white's claim to fame now, or they'd never survive with no specialty! It makes the translator necessary.

pein · 2020-03-14 07:45:32

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yes, I have thought about ways to indicate territories more clearly.
Right now, you can't tell the difference between leaving your home territory and entering someone else's. You're homesick as soon as you leave.
I have thought about some sort of color overlay on the ground (like actual map colors), or maybe just at the boundary. I worry that it would look tacky.
Also, the territories are currently square and therefore kind of boring to depict visually.

different places could just look darker/desaturated, just change overlay?

maybe a minimap with fog of war and distinct border colours

hex maps look so much better generally, it's more natural, more strategic and more options of movement, also they cover the space better, squares are optically misleading when calculating distances
bu I guess it's too late for that since all the buildings are planned for the squares, even diagonals
x,y,z coordinates, but the degrees are always the same so you only need 2 coordinates anyway
well, maybe for your next game

Gogo · 2020-03-14 08:30:15

I'm sorry, but the language barrier should be as difficult as it is now, otherwise whites will be useless.

Today I was white twice. I completed diesel for well in Argentina (ginger) town and in the meantime I was a translator for some brown chick on a horse and gingers. Brown wanted to reclaim well at previously Gay family town, so she wanted kero in exchange for latex and oil. I finished well and the exchanged happened. I was also a guide to an oil pump (which was previously made by me ).

It... was... exhausting but FUN.

BTW...
Before that I was also white (Gold) and we were nearly wiped out, only one fertile female left and bunch of gingers who was pissed off at us, because we killed some gingers 'for revenge' (ppl said they were stealing our shit). I had fun lifes that add up in a complex, dramatic history. xD

Last edited by Gogo (2020-03-14 08:32:45)

Keyin · 2020-03-14 09:17:01

Gogo wrote:

I'm sorry, but the language barrier should be as difficult as it is now, otherwise whites will be useless.

I do not think that is a very good reason.. first once you have paper and rubber ball whites aren't needed.

Second, languages should be easier for sake of realism. If you live among a group your whole life you should be able to understand them

Third, with decades of effort you should be able to communicate consistently with people. Current way language works makes it so you need to learn many individuals filters, not to mention finding someone willing to practice instead of using paper.

I argue for a simple 1:1 substitution cypher that groups vowels, high sonorant consonants, and low sonorant consonants(AEIOUY, HJLMNRW, and BCDFGKPQSTVXZ) for the sake of making frequency analysis at least comparable to the effort of simply using paper.

Whites should instead have a biome of their own(like temperate rainforest, or mediteranian), some new resource for later tech.

Everyone knows whites are the useless/worst race. I /die when I am born as one most of the time. They are only mildly more convenient than paper because they don't cost a tool slot.

Dodge · 2020-03-14 10:06:20

Yes whites with their own biome instead of communication, easier language learning but if that's the case fixing the thing with paper, doesn't make much sense to write in another language and being able to read it in your own.

Actually merging whites and ginger giving them their own biome and add another race for the thundra.

Or merge whites and ginger keep thundra and add another race+biome.

Psykout · 2020-03-14 10:56:05

Keyin wrote:

Second, languages should be easier for sake of realism. If you live among a group your whole life you should be able to understand them
Third, with decades of effort you should be able to communicate consistently with people. Current way language works makes it so you need to learn many individuals filters, not to mention finding someone willing to practice instead of using paper.

I agree on the fact that realistically languages are easier to learn than what it feels like in game. You can't necessarily go 1:1 on that either though, because it would feel odd to learn a language in a few minutes as well. Also it fits in with the game of doing work that is meant for your descendants. Also it's not really 3 hrs of work, because its roughly 5 min per generation that they need to hang at the other village before they can come back home. 10 gens x 5min = 50 minutes of time spent, throw in an extra 20 for transportation time, 110 min over 3-4 hours of the lifespan of the lineage. Also thats for 90-100% learned, getting by with 70-80% is very doable, which shaves off 15-25 min or so.

I personally would do exchange baby esque, drop em off at the neighbors, come back 5 min later and grab em, or they can just walk back home. If you really want to push it, do it with multiple daughters, but thats up to you. Bare minimum you would have to just walk over one time and drop off the kid, which is just a few minutes of your time. Granted that falls apart really quick if the daughter in question dies before having her own kids, but thats what you get for only putting in a few minutes of time. Also just need to convince your kid do continue that trend and so on. Actually sounds a little neat that way, its your bloodlines job in the lineage to learn the neighbors language.

The question I have though is, if your family learns 50% of the neighbor brown language, and they know 50% of yours, does it get easier to communicate? As a language exchange baby would staying over there and teaching their babies before you came back speed anything up? If that is the case then you could cut that learning time for two villages down quite a bit.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-03-14 11:42:03

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

Oil is the next problem I see. With the oil nerf gingers are going to have a tough time keeping 3 extra towns going.

Oil is not the only source of water. Many swamp biomes are so big they can give comparable amount of water as an oil rig could give, just from ponds (maybe I've exaggerated a little, but still tons of water from a single big swamp biome).
A deep well gives 33 buckets of water on average (+13 buckets from shallow well), and it is very easy to make. You can even hire a newbie to bring water from it, you both would love this

Kinda sad that people see that they are out of kerosene and think "fck, we are doomed".

Also make clothes for everyone, and teach people to eat smarter (especially how to make and drink milk).

Last edited by Coconut Fruit (2020-03-14 11:47:57)

Keyin · 2020-03-14 23:17:03

Psykout wrote:

I agree on the fact that realistically languages are easier to learn than what it feels like in game. You can't necessarily go 1:1 on that either though, because it would feel odd to learn a language in a few minutes as well. Also it fits in with the game of doing work that is meant for your descendants.

A few minutes is a few years time. Imagine being a baby dropped off in another town by your mom, and she leaves never to come back. You then go the rest of your life without being able to understand what any other person is saying?

Using the three pronged 1:1 substitution cypher I proposed would still present some challenge to learn, and the average person probably wouldn't be able to memorize it completely(leaving an accent). A completely random example using my three groups:

NI! I OW QHAW DNE ADNEH DARL. TOL YAU ZED UX XAWE HUVVEW? RE RIJJ ZIFE YAU XUJQUH

context: Black person comes to your town and you are brown.

I'll admit the 1:1 has the weakness of making X,Q, and other uncommon sounds common. English doesn't have the sounds /x/, /c/(similar to H in HUE) or /q/ (All sound similar to H, throaty sounds).

J is used as Scandinavian J (correct original usage). Y is used as vowel like it was originally in classical greek where letter came from. When a letter is used as both high sonorance(vowel) and low sonorance(consonant) it is better to go with higher sononarce because you can easily pronounce a string of vowels, but not a string of consonants ex: replacing 'Y' in 'MY' with a consonant would be unpronounceable.

On the note of 'work for descendants' I believe that just because it fits the theme better doesn't mean it's better. There are a number of things in the game the think the game would be more fun without, but are there for the sake of theme(tiny character limit, only live for 60 years when record is over 120, etc).

It is also extremely unsatisfying for me personally. Even when I am born in the situation that the filter is ~80% complete, I STILL have to adjust how I talk for each individual depending on their level of language filter.

SO the result is you end up never actually learning the language; it isn't feasible. A 1:1 filter is feasible, and still requires a considerable amount of mental effort to memorize.

Psykout wrote:

Also it's not really 3 hrs of work, because its roughly 5 min per generation that they need to hang at the other village before they can come back home. 10 gens x 5min = 50 minutes of time spent, throw in an extra 20 for transportation time, 110 min over 3-4 hours of the lifespan of the lineage. Also thats for 90-100% learned, getting by with 70-80% is very doable, which shaves off 15-25 min or so.

What your saying is true, but you also have to consider it is easy for a branch of a family to die out. I have to make sure MY branch of the family lives on(At the expense of my cousin/daughters kids).

So in reality, there is a HUGE range of how much effort it would actually take to get to 100%. Knowing that hanging around another family will negatively impact fertility, odds are your branch of the family will be the side to die off.

It may be a fun cross generational quest(not to me) initially, but if this is something you have to do over-and-over again, it will get old pretty quickly.

Psykout wrote:

The question I have though is, if your family learns 50% of the neighbor brown language, and they know 50% of yours, does it get easier to communicate? As a language exchange baby would staying over there and teaching their babies before you came back speed anything up? If that is the case then you could cut that learning time for two villages down quite a bit.

Yes, but it makes it EXTREMELY difficult to learn a filter 100%. You will have to adjust the way you speak for each individual for 100% intelligibility because they each have a different filter.

In the past each persons filters were extremely similar due to people spam teaching the most common sounds. Now it is random which 10% they get so there is huge variation in each person's filter.

I really hope Jason changes the way language filters work(even if it's harder than 1:1). Each person's filter varies way too much, making it so even when you feel you've mastered the filter, you have to learn what parts are different(a significant amount) for each individual you talk to.

I just want my filter memorization to be useful for more than one individual, and comparable in effort to just using paper....

Gogo · 2020-03-15 00:26:58

I got idea.

Can kerosene be pour into another tank, line by line to full tank?

wondible · 2020-03-15 01:30:18

Gogo wrote:

I got idea.
Can kerosene be pour into another tank, line by line to full tank?

Kerosine can go into bowls, and bowls can go into tanks.

Pitty buckets of water can't go back into water tanks.

Gogo · 2020-03-15 02:59:24

Thanks.

Another thing, can posse for outsiders be smaller than for our family in towns? I mean if they come for something they should feel the threat, we should be able to prevent stealing.

Legs · 2020-03-15 03:36:26

Gogo wrote:

Thanks.
Another thing, can posse for outsiders be smaller than for our family in towns? I mean if they come for something they should feel the threat, we should be able to prevent stealing.

I agree. Castle doctrine. Kill all outsiders on sight.

I'm sure that this trade is coming, as a way to promote war when we finally adapt to the new meta and become comfortable.

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#51 2020-03-14 00:01:05

Re: My worries with the homesick update

#52 2020-03-14 00:18:50

Re: My worries with the homesick update

#53 2020-03-14 06:28:21

Re: My worries with the homesick update

#54 2020-03-14 07:45:32

Re: My worries with the homesick update

#55 2020-03-14 08:30:15

Re: My worries with the homesick update

#56 2020-03-14 09:17:01

Re: My worries with the homesick update

#57 2020-03-14 10:06:20

Re: My worries with the homesick update

#58 2020-03-14 10:56:05

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#59 2020-03-14 11:42:03

Re: My worries with the homesick update

#60 2020-03-14 23:17:03

Re: My worries with the homesick update

#61 2020-03-15 00:26:58

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