Yumming Etiquette - By the Sisterhood of the Yum

testo · 2019-09-25 02:05:29

IM SO EATING COOKED BEANS GOD DAMNIT!!!!!

From now on my first five meals are shuckedcorn/B.inbowl/Green Beans/carrot/COOKED BEANS

DestinyCall · 2019-09-25 03:11:04

Well, you know what they say, testo.

Every village needs an idiot.

pein · 2019-09-25 06:56:27

CatX wrote:

Well... this one I disagree with. Griefers destroy things because they want to see other people suffer. People who cause the town to fail out of ignorance are just ignorant, pein.

You see it too black and white, not all griefers go for straight rampage, lot of times it's revenge and for a reason. Also, good griefers are good players, bad griefers are bad players. The Best players I saw are quite aggressive, Mirelli, Telafiesta, Baker, Turnipseed, Tarr, Pharo, Alleria. They all work at light speed, and they all kill you for mistakes and bad intention, but if you don't cross the line then they are the best partners ever.
Some people just got bored with the illogical and selfish play style of the masses. I had donkey town life where i had 2 kids, and we made a decent town under 20 minutes. Truth is, if all players would focus on important stuff, you could make all tools, upgrade wells, make cisterns, empy them and then just do tech and skip the mid tier tech which isn't too optimal anyway.
Most games I rushed stuff, with bad or mediocre maps there is no time to play dilly-dally.

Just because you don't know that others are annoyed by your actions, they might well be annoyed. I can follow quite a lot of people and know if they are useless, and i often annoy myself over them but choose not to act upon it. Meanwhile, some people want to stab you because you don't let them steal your stuff or waste iron on stupid things.
So if you know how to play but choose not to be useful, it's quite the same as griefing, as you place a lot of pressure on others.
Good example are players who try to keep others alive regardless of their actions. One thing this game teaches that being totally selfless doesn't worth it. And yeah, it's cause of mechanics of the game cause there is no difference stealing things or producing them.

CatX wrote:

And honestly, if too many people eating corn causes the town to die, this is something we should bring to the attention of the developer. It makes no sense in the vein of the game trying to be somewhat realistic. "You ate the corn I was going to feed the cow! Now we all perish!" You don't hear that in the real world.

The numbers are quite unbalanced, we had corn at a very good spot, even overpowered at start with 5x5 pips. Then jason put it back to 4x3 which is quite bad. Berries are decent ever since they grow faster, and variety is more like a vanity content than a balanced choice grid.
Mutton pie is the best food ever since the start, has a bit of setting up, but it's produced along with soil, using up the waste products of the composting, so it saves a lot of time.

The story of the yum is interesting:
Jason said that berry is the dominant food and cant convince people to change the mono diet.
I brought up tropico and stronghold crusader, where food variety was a bonus over the mono diet, in crusader, you could decrease rations, increase taxes and buy meat to fulfil the needs, and you saved half of food for that micromanagement. Tropico had similar setup with food variety giving happiness, variety and population support. But there the soil and natural conditions limited you from planting other things to some slots.

Long story short, Jason added yum as a bonus to do a varied diet, with a simple mechanic rewarding for eating different food each time. I thought is quite logical that the amount of bonus you get out of this system is limited, and it's still just a small bonus on the bottom, won't change the top foods. But players went overboard with it, and tried to make records, spending all their life to eat as much as possible, and the whole goal of variety per city, went into the variety per person. People don't know the origins of this mechanic, and they still try to convince themselves and others, that this was intended competition over food, and yumming is the main goal of the game. Which is quite interesting, cause OHOL is a virtual food consuming game, and lot of people are actually IRL foodies, farmers, gardeners, chefs etc.
So if you understand my problem: yumming isn't doing its original goal, to increase awareness about other food, it's mainly personal goal.
There isn't a limit of maximum bonus, so you can waste the whole 60 minutes on it, and flex with it.
Where in reality you didn't made a difference for others, and you might be even negative impact on everyone else. If it would be an easy-to-reach goal of 10 yum, i would do it, that would mean that you need to select 10 different foods you produce city wide and overall consumption would be more effective. Right now, people going to get one banana for themselves often takes more time than to stay home and make 8 pies to feed everyone.

I agree to a degree, but again, I think that what you're pointing at is more of a problem with game mechanics than player behavior.
Of course, it depends on what kind of game each of us see OHOL evolving into. I've played some city builder games in my time, games where I had to be very clever about what to build when and where, or else everything would fall apart. It was fun. But I don't think OHOL should be that kind of game. There should be room for individual decisions, and even a new player who discovered something new they could contribute with should be awarded with the feeling that "I helped this place grow," instead of "everything fell apart."
And sure, this could be different stages so that Eve villages could continue to depend on a very specific build order and behaviour, but after that stage I don't think there should be only one way to keep a place alive.

I mean, if you ever made an Eve run and succeeded to make a long generation, then you should already realize that you need to make tools before you waste all kindling on food variety. Time is short, and variety is unneeded luxury.
I enjoyed strategy games, city builders. Making the most optimal choices, even IRL job was always some sort of problem solving and optimization.
The game has a lot of potential toward automatization, grouped fights, team jobs, trade and diplomacy. Games that take the simulation and personal relations to focus are quite shallow and boring after a while, thinking of Sims, Spore and such, I guess some players come from that area and enjoy that type of play. I like to run around the city, find the issues, correct them and enjoy watching it grow. If people listen, we can get faster to a sustainable state and do whatever afterwards, like planting gardens, making varied food. But this kind of selfish behaviour, rushing the tech that you not supposed to do yet, always makes me feel like some players are so inconsiderate towards others, so disgraceful towards their ancestors. If you are the only adult player and if you even got extra clothes, others might as well expect you to do the harder jobs, the tech upgrades, not running around eating different foods while others don't even have the time or options to do so.

For individual decisions would be a need for an actual tech tree. Other than the original main game that came out right away at start, most of the things are unbalanced and doesn't build upon each other. Composting is a circle which rewards job with free materials. So doing compost has a profit, and that profit can be turned into vanity stuff, extra ropes, extra boxes, letters, signs, doors, etc.
So logically you should always do it. But other areas of the game, even water upgrading had its issues, as Jason didn't link them to higher tech. Bucket was also my idea to limit tech level and give advantage over low tech.

There were a lot of ideas like new types of soil in different biomes, or more adaptive approach to map, so some crops are better in some situations (map heat, weather changes) but they been never implemented, so yeah the main game is still the same, the variety is a noob trap, doesn't make much logical sense to do them, other than role-play. And newbies can't be useful a lot of times, as lives are quite cheap, and they don't provide anything what you couldn't do alone, faster. Explaining something takes more time than doing it yourself, and people don't care about others if the game mechanics doesn't reward/punish that behaviour. So that's where the game is bad, there is nothing motivating anyone on doing anything. Even for the rôle play or any reason, like an old guy could pay toddlers to help? No. Toddlers just scavenge clothes and tell you to fuck off.

Yeah, it isn't much flexibility on how to grow a city.
Make kiln, pottery, carrot farm, tools, well, berry farm, sheep pen, shears, clothes, pies, floors, carts, horses, cisterns, upgrades, oil, engine, more trees and milkweed, pretty much the same each time. The other things are unneeded luxury and doesn't serve much purpose. Stew is decent vlaue, but you might as well make more pies.

The rule of the market is that if you got a lot of something, then it's cheap, if it's rare, it's expensive
overdoing stuff will decrease face value, but won't change the actual value

the best example are carrots, they are generally counted as fast, decent option, in reality all those incomplete seeding rows are an issue, too much and too little seeds are and issue
and those motherfuckers who water it 3 times a life but never pick it are the worst kind of people
storing and picking it can be an issue which wouldn't of happen if you do small batches more often

if you yum 1 carrot, others need to do the same with other 4, if you pick one then you gotta pick the other 4, bare minimum

Mor bushes aren't equal of more food, they just make more work but the effectiveness is same or even lower if you cannot reach bushes easily.

Plates are a bottleneck on food production and on smithing. We still don't have stuff for cooking only, like frying-pan, stoves, metal or plastic plates. So lot of choices are quite bad just because of circumstances. I for one, just make tons of mutton pies like twice a life and call it a day. I can still do some advancement and creative stuff.

OneOfMany · 2020-02-13 03:08:30

Saolin wrote:

The predominant line of thinking seems to be "if you want to yum, make the better foods (but please don't)". I think there is a place for the 'bad' yum foods. And just for the sake of clarity, when i say yum foods, i mean any food that you haven't eaten yet. In an establishing village you will reach a point where there is enough potential yum foods to maintain a life-long yum chain, but a lot of the 'better' yum foods are not yet available and/or wild foods have become rare. Personally I think at this point it is acceptable, and perhaps even ideal, to make berry pie varieties in small numbers as well as eat foods that are 'bad' when considering value, though it is best if these foods are eaten only by those successfully yum-chaining and moved on from when possible.
Some think eating low value foods like corn and green beans is "lazy" yumming, and in many circumstances that would be accurate, but in some circumstances it can be inaccurate as well. It is easy to say "go hunt a turkey instead of eating raw corn". Yes, turning a raw corn into stew/chips/tacos creates value, and value to cost ratio does change favorably; though these higher value items also have a higher cost both in resources and time, . There is an opportunity cost for everything in this game, due to time constraints. If, for example, you are in an establishing town looking to transition to diesel engine and need to still find a tarry spot and build an oil rig, it is more valuable to the town to work on this task than spend time processing food to make it more efficient/higher value, even though those processed food items are better. Other examples could be gathering rubber, or establishing an iron mine. Before heading out to bring a cart of water buckets to the oil rig and build a kiln and produce some charcoal to drill for oil, while loading up the supplies for your trip you can fill up on popcorn + green bean + shucked corn and head out there with nearly a full bar +39 pips, allowing a long stay to focus on work while retaining full cargo space! While you're out there maybe you'll see a banana/cactus fruit to eat, and if you're yum-chaining, these foods are almost twice as good! And that's the thing about yum-chaining - it's not about just eating bad foods to make them passable, it's about making the best foods way better! Taking a bite of rabbit pie for 26 pips with double digits extending beyond a full food bar is pretty good!
-------
Anyway as far as yum etiquette goes:
-Plan ahead so you don't lose your chain or waste time running around looking for something delicious.
-In general, and especially if you're still familiarizing yourself with yum-chain, avoid the least efficient options until they're necessary. It is incredibly counter-productive if you eat a raw corn at +4, and then subsequently need to reset your chain shortly after.
-Don't do it if the options aren't there. Instead focus on small chains of more efficient food options (popcorn, bread, stew, rabbit pie, carrot/rabbit pie, reset) It gets pretty easy to keep extending this when you expand to things like mutton, berry, berry bowl, and often there's a few good options laying around like omelette, cooked rabbit, bowl of carnitas, turkey and it's broth, then you can get into things like carrot, onion, tomato, etc. It's good to build in this order in general since it protects against lost value in a dropped yum-chain, and because sometimes new, more efficient food items will appear as your life progresses. It feels pretty dumb to have yummed a raw corn early on while leaving a higher value item for later, only to find that later when you need to eat the higher value item someone has produced skim milk and sauerkraut and now you only get to eat one of three. You could always eat the raw corn last if no one had happened to prepare these options, so try to leave the least efficient options for last.
-Prepare food for everyone, not just yourself. If you are preparing yum foods for yourself, make sure you are making efficient use of the cooking session, as kindling has a non-negligible cost. Focus on producing the most efficient foods since most players won't be yum chaining, such as plain rabbit pies, carrot/rabbit pies, mutton pies, //cooked rabbit, bowls of carnitas, and omelettes/stew. Gather/prepare as much as you could cook by yourself before starting to cook, ideally. More if you know there are others who would be helping, though it seems difficult to get people to wait beyond more than 1.5x what someone could do by themself.
-Again, focus on producing the most efficient options such as rabbit pie and carrot/rabbit pie to protect against new players not knowing the difference and to keep non yummers from being forced to consume less efficient options.
-If food is plentiful and there is nothing better to do, produce additional food items to what is already available!
-Work! Make use of your decreased need to eat in your life and accomplish something!

Yup, Isn't that what I said?
Nicely put

MrGold · 2020-02-13 03:29:30

What about the brotherhood:3

DestinyCall · 2020-02-13 03:38:01

And lo, there was a great sound, as if a bell struck, and the heavens opened and the dead rose from their graves.

OneOfMany · 2020-02-13 03:39:30

DestinyCall wrote:

And lo, there was a great sound, as if a bell struck, and the heavens opened and the dead rose from their graves.

did you miss me?

OneOfMany · 2020-02-13 03:41:01

MrGold wrote:

What about the brotherhood:3

Hmm, I just started the Gypsies. Why not join. It's a fun play style.

Lava · 2020-02-13 13:49:22

I don’t know why this topic is still being talked about. If everyone yummed towns would be efficient no matter what food you use to do it. I’ll eat the shucked corn and the green beans if it means keeping my chain. Eat any food you want as long as it keeps the chain. Our concern should be to make everyone keep a yum chain which is really easy to do with hetuw search feature Y

DestinyCall · 2020-02-13 14:27:42

Lava wrote:

I don’t know why this topic is still being talked about. If everyone yummed towns would be efficient no matter what food you use to do it. I’ll eat the shucked corn and the green beans if it means keeping my chain. Eat any food you want as long as it keeps the chain. Our concern should be to make everyone keep a yum chain which is really easy to do with hetuw search feature Y

People never learn. Even if you give them hard-won knowledge, they refuse to grow wiser. It makes me sad inside.

Lava · 2020-02-13 15:06:43

DestinyCall wrote:

Lava wrote:
I don’t know why this topic is still being talked about. If everyone yummed towns would be efficient no matter what food you use to do it. I’ll eat the shucked corn and the green beans if it means keeping my chain. Eat any food you want as long as it keeps the chain. Our concern should be to make everyone keep a yum chain which is really easy to do with hetuw search feature Y
People never learn. Even if you give them hard-won knowledge, they refuse to grow wiser. It makes me sad inside.

I’m not breaking my chain because it’s “ineffeciant” no it ain’t,id rather be yumming on low foods than constantly running to eat berries. Also early towns, or not populated towns don’t have food variety so I’m going to eat any food I can get my hands on. And in the long run it’s more efficient, I only have to eat thirteen times a life. Keep talking all this crap while I’m getting oil and teaching new players ffs.

Gogo · 2020-02-13 15:14:28

Berrie pies from wild berries costs nothing, it's not bad food.

DestinyCall · 2020-02-13 16:16:41

Lava wrote:

I’m not breaking my chain because it’s “ineffeciant” no it ain’t,id rather be yumming on low foods than constantly running to eat berries. Also early towns, or not populated towns don’t have food variety so I’m going to eat any food I can get my hands on. And in the long run it’s more efficient, I only have to eat thirteen times a life. Keep talking all this crap while I’m getting oil and teaching new players ffs.

You are intentionally missing the point. I'm not saying you should abandon yumming completely and go eat some berries. I am saying that foods you choose to eat matters, even if you are yumming. All foods get the same yum bonus, but the costs associated with producing different foods vary tremendously. If you only need to eat thirteen times in one life - that is great. But it is no excuse to ignore food quality. If anything, it gives you even more reason to carefully consider the quality of the foods that you DO consume. It should be easy to avoid eating crap if you only need to find a dozen bites in your life. There are lots of options available in the average village. Something as simple as planting a row of potatoes instead of green beans, for example.

When you eat bad yum foods to extend your chain, you are acting selfishly. You save yourself some time at the expense of someone else's efforts and increase the amount of work necessary to cover the cost of what you eat. It is lazy yumming. I understand why you do it. You don't want to waste YOUR valuable time. But if everyone eats like you do, we are all wasting time and resources (which cost even more time to replace). It would be better make smarter choices and always try to eat the most efficient foods available, instead of making lazy food choices that carry hidden costs for the whole village. Smart eating allows you to yum efficiently AND takes less time away from other people.

It is a win-win.

Rose · 2020-02-13 17:46:54

All yummers kepp talking about food they eat.
I never heard them talking about food THEY MAKE!

Gogo · 2020-02-13 18:43:31

I read whole topic and changed my mind, now I eat pies and drink milk as bb, yumming are useless except for fertility bonus. Corn is especially useless as food, give it to cow and have a milk. People don't see it's not worthy, they see yum number goes higher, it's just a psychology.

Last edited by Gogo (2020-02-13 18:44:09)

Lava · 2020-02-13 22:19:36

DestinyCall wrote:

Lava wrote:
I’m not breaking my chain because it’s “ineffeciant” no it ain’t,id rather be yumming on low foods than constantly running to eat berries. Also early towns, or not populated towns don’t have food variety so I’m going to eat any food I can get my hands on. And in the long run it’s more efficient, I only have to eat thirteen times a life. Keep talking all this crap while I’m getting oil and teaching new players ffs.
You are intentionally missing the point. I'm not saying you should abandon yumming completely and go eat some berries. I am saying that foods you choose to eat matters, even if you are yumming. All foods get the same yum bonus, but the costs associated with producing different foods vary tremendously. If you only need to eat thirteen times in one life - that is great. But it is no excuse to ignore food quality. If anything, it gives you even more reason to carefully consider the quality of the foods that you DO consume. It should be easy to avoid eating crap if you only need to find a dozen bites in your life. There are lots of options available in the average village. Something as simple as planting a row of potatoes instead of green beans, for example.
When you eat bad yum foods to extend your chain, you are acting selfishly. You save yourself some time at the expense of someone else's efforts and increase the amount of work necessary to cover the cost of what you eat. It is lazy yumming. I understand why you do it. You don't want to waste YOUR valuable time. But if everyone eats like you do, we are all wasting time and resources (which cost even more time to replace). It would be better make smarter choices and always try to eat the most efficient foods available, instead of making lazy food choices that carry hidden costs for the whole village. Smart eating allows you to yum efficiently AND takes less time away from other people.
It is a win-win.

LOL if everyone ate like I DID, towns would be 20x more efficient, stop spreading false info that what I do wastes resources, no it SAVES them. You get so fucking pressed bout me eating ONE green bean that will give me about 10-20 pips depending how much yum I have at the time. Sometimes towns don’t have a lot of yum, so eating to keep the chain ALWAYS saves resources. Your more pressed about this even though this whole act you made up that eating yum foods that give u less food pips is stupid. THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF YUM IS TO GET MORE FOOD PIPS OUt OF THE FOOD YOU EAT. This is why its imperative that you eat low cost foods so they’re affect of pips goes up! You act like people have the choice between to pick what yum foods they have in their village like it’s plentiful . Lol I have hetuw and I have trouble finding yum foods in low pop towns or new towns, I just about make it with my diet of including ALL yum foods. Be pressed about people berry munching.

Last edited by Lava (2020-02-13 22:26:47)

Legs · 2020-02-13 22:55:06

There are two axioms that I think we can all agree on.

1. Yum is always better than meh.
2. Some foods are better than others.

Edit: to clarify point 2: better in the sense of providing much more food relative to the cost in time, resources and most importantly water. Think mutton pie, skim milk, baked potato, stew etc.

Yumming is good. Good foods are also good. Ideally, you want to yum while eating mostly good foods. That's the point Destiny is making here. Omelettes are yummy- they're also free. Turkey is yummy- it's also free.

That piece of corn could be eaten raw or made into popcorn and that would be yummy- BUT, it would also be wasteful when it could be used as animal feed instead, multiplying its value. Compare a bowl of popcorn to a bucket of milk and it's no contest. Skim milk. Whole milk. Butter for your bread. Piglets you could turn into pork tacos or carnitas. All better uses of that corn.

You want to eat raw tomato and onion? That's fine. Salsa and ketchup are yummy, but the base chips and fries to go with them are expensive and time consuming. The point is, think before you yum. A carrot might be yummy, but what else could you do with it that would make a better food? You could bake it into a yummy pie, multiplying the value. You could feed a sheep and make five yummy mutton. See?

Have your first berry, then a berry from a bowl. A tomato, an onion. If some goofball made popcorn take a nibble, but don't make it yourself. Hunt turkey, make omelette, roast rabbits and bake them into pies. Eat wild yums while you're out of town hunting and gathering.

Everyone's guilty of lazy yumming sometimes and that's fine.
It's better to eat good food if you can though.
Give a little bit of thought to what you eat, it's not even that hard.

Last edited by Legs (2020-02-13 22:57:11)

testo · 2020-02-13 22:59:40

Do whatever you want with your food as long as you pay for it with work.

Legs · 2020-02-13 23:12:07

Here's a question. What's the yum etiquette when it comes to force-feeding?

Am I some kind of yum angel if I go around with a berry bowl boosting people's yum by feeding them?

DiscardedSlinky · 2020-02-13 23:15:54

I'm fucking sick of this thread. Can we just let it be dead already

Legs · 2020-02-13 23:18:07

Watch your language young man!!

DiscardedSlinky · 2020-02-13 23:31:44

Legs wrote:

Watch your language young man!!

DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY GENDER

Mods help

Legs · 2020-02-13 23:49:18

You're a real funny guy, you know that

Cantface · 2020-02-13 23:55:06

Legs wrote:

You're a real funny guy, you know that

Don't call em guy, buddy!

Last edited by Cantface (2020-02-14 00:06:49)

Mekkie · 2020-02-14 00:09:05

The only yumming that makes me cringe is Burdock. I mean, you're eating 15 people's worth of pants for your 1 boost. Shame.

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Re: Yumming Etiquette - By the Sisterhood of the Yum

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