Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

Jadajen · 2018-03-18 14:40:50

farm

This is a conceptual layout for an advance society. I should be able to be efficiently run by one or two (one adult one kid) people given that there is someone running water and someone delivering compost (kids who grew up/ young adults).

All boxes should have empty baskets if possible.

The boxes on the left is for delivering compost and strong extra seed. The boxes on the top for storing full baskets of carrots. The carts on the bottom are for delivering water. The carts on the top for taking carrots to storage.

All fences should not have wooden bars, but simply the posts allowing for free passage.

Walls are adobe.

The advantages of this farm are in high efficiency, intuitive layout, compact space. It can also be duplicated depending on where water sources are. Also noobs cannot destroy the layout because it is protected by walls. It is easy to start up when an eve comes across it.

Last edited by Jadajen (2018-03-19 20:51:39)

Matok · 2018-03-18 14:44:49

Are the seed tiles for seed storage or seed growing?

InSpace · 2018-03-18 14:57:58

Compact space isn't a good idea

Joriom · 2018-03-19 00:04:26

6 basket for 12 plots?
I think you got the ratios wrong.
For efficient collection you need 5 baskets for 3 plots.
Thats why single rows of farmland with baskets on both sides are so popular - you can collect carrots without running back and forth between plot and basket.

When you're done - you put hose baskets in carts and replace them with carts of empty baskets. This way you need just a bit over 1 cart for 3 plots. If farmers eat during harvest and take some for themselves (to backpack or something) its 1 cart for 3 plots. Which leads to pretty elegant layout - 3 baskets one side, 3 plots in the middle, basket + cart + basket on the other side.
Also - for the sake of efficiency - we found tiled rows going North-South slightly better than East-West even though they look strange. Why you ask? To harvest 5 carrots into 2 baskets - you need to acces both sides of the row. If one side is to the north from you - you almost can't click on the basket and need additional moves.

You can also easily "tile" this layout - which is perfect when you repeat it three times. Why? Because thats 9 plots - one seeding plot somewhere will re-seed itself + 9 of those tiles. So you need 1 seeding plot per "three tiles of three plots".

You could also always make those 3x3 tiles stadalones - each sourounded by fence on its own. This would make it possible for farmer with backpack of carrot seed heads to plat one (wild) or two (domestic) of them at the same time.
The only part needeing explanation are:
Utility A - used for cart during collection / delivery of baskets OR to place basket full of water pouches if water is brought from outside OR basket of seeds.
Utility B - used to store carts of empty baskets OR carts of carrots OR water pouches / bowls to water plants OR some food for farmers themselves OR carts of seeds (depending on demand). The Utility B area can also be made wider - making it 4 or even 5 spaces between top and bottom farm - just to provide more space if needed.

Antarys · 2018-03-19 02:20:26

Why not just put Deep wells instead of cisterns? Since the most difficult part would be to get all the stones, and not the bucket + wood to upgrade it from a shallow well. Btw, are deep wells able to refill when they are empty now?

Kitaelia · 2018-03-19 02:35:23

Antarys wrote:

Why not just put Deep wells instead of cisterns? Since the most difficult part would be to get all the stones, and not the bucket + wood to upgrade it from a shallow well. Btw, are deep wells able to refill when they are empty now?

No, I don't think wells are able to refill when they are empty. Not yet anyway. And Joriom can correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe the Cisterns are for being able to tell when the "Water refill tick" happens since you cannot tell when Wells refill.

PastaFasta55 · 2018-03-19 03:45:22

Joriom wrote:

You can also easily "tile" this layout - which is perfect when you repeat it three times. Why? Because thats 9 plots - one seeding plot somewhere will re-seed itself + 9 of those tiles. So you need 1 seeding plot per "three tiles of three plots".

That's wrong.

It takes 9 minutes for a dedicated seed plot to go from a wet plot to seeding carrots, which provides 9 seeds (10 minus 1 for replanting).
It takes 4 minutes for a dedicated carrot plot to go from a wet plot to mature carrots, consuming 1 seed.

(9 seeds per seedplot * 0.15 seedplot per hour) / (4/60 carrotplots per hour) = 4 carrotplots.

AKA, 4:1.

tcecrog · 2018-03-19 04:00:56

All wells can recover from empty, but it takes 10 hours. If not empty, it refills at the same rate as a pond, so it good to put wells next to a pond and use the pond to keep track.

Also, since seeding carrots consume soil, a compost farm is needed to replenish the used soil, but that requires wheat and gooseberries. Also, carrot pie is much more efficient in feeding then carrots, so shouldn't a efficient farm include those too?

shoukanjuu · 2018-03-19 04:29:27

Kitaelia wrote:

Antarys wrote:
Why not just put Deep wells instead of cisterns? Since the most difficult part would be to get all the stones, and not the bucket + wood to upgrade it from a shallow well. Btw, are deep wells able to refill when they are empty now?
No, I don't think wells are able to refill when they are empty. Not yet anyway. And Joriom can correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe the Cisterns are for being able to tell when the "Water refill tick" happens since you cannot tell when Wells refill.

They will start to refill again after 10 hours if they've been dried. So they're not gone forever. But…I think that using cisterns to try to measure well usage will probably not work all that well, unless you carefully cordon off each well/cistern/carrot row to prevent confusion.

If always replanted/water/harvested super-promptly, you're going to need water every 4 minutes for a single carrot row. And water (be it a pond, shallow, or deep well) replenishes every 5 minutes…and that timer gets reset every time you draw from it. SO…if the timer DIDN'T reset, I would say that…you just dedicate 1 deep well per carrot row, and it would take over 4 epochs for it to go dry, even if you harvested/replanted/watered in ZERO seconds time EVERY time, over 60 times in a row…

…but if my understanding about the water replenishment being reset every time you take water out of the source is correct, than…if you start with a full deep well (14 portions), and a supply of 10 carrot seeds, take 10 portions of water from the well to fill a cistern, plant and water the carrot row, and then…even assuming instantaneous harvesting/replanting/watering…you keep planting and harvesting carrots until you have zero seeds, then and ONLY then do you take water from the well to refill the cistern to the brim, and let THAT crop go to seed…you will never dry the well. Although you will never have any EXTRA water, either (and you'll be taking the well down to a single portion every time you refill the cistern).

So, with one deep well and one cistern per carrot row, using your saved seeds until they run out, refilling the cistern and then letting that final planting go to seed…is sustainable.

Oh, wait, my math is totally off on that. 9 carrot harvests + 1 seed harvest would take 45 minutes, which would only be enough time for 9 water to replenish. So, every time you run out of seeds, you would need to get 1 extra water from a different source.

Last edited by shoukanjuu (2018-03-19 04:59:50)

Joriom · 2018-03-19 05:55:32

Kitaelia wrote:

Antarys wrote:
Why not just put Deep wells instead of cisterns? Since the most difficult part would be to get all the stones, and not the bucket + wood to upgrade it from a shallow well. Btw, are deep wells able to refill when they are empty now?
No, I don't think wells are able to refill when they are empty. Not yet anyway. And Joriom can correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe the Cisterns are for being able to tell when the "Water refill tick" happens since you cannot tell when Wells refill.

Wells will refill in 10 hours after you dry them up. Thats why you don't want to dry them up. Thats why you build cisterns and bring handcarts full of water pouches of water (12) to fill cisterns. Wells should only be managed by the farmer on carrot/well duty so he knows how much he can still take from wells and how much from cisterns.

PastaFasta55 wrote:

Joriom wrote:
You can also easily "tile" this layout - which is perfect when you repeat it three times. Why? Because thats 9 plots - one seeding plot somewhere will re-seed itself + 9 of those tiles. So you need 1 seeding plot per "three tiles of three plots".
That's wrong.
It takes 9 minutes for a dedicated seed plot to go from a wet plot to seeding carrots, which provides 9 seeds (10 minus 1 for replanting).
It takes 4 minutes for a dedicated carrot plot to go from a wet plot to mature carrots, consuming 1 seed.
(9 seeds per seedplot * 0.15 seedplot per hour) / (4/60 carrotplots per hour) = 4 carrotplots.
AKA, 4:1.

You are correct about the time but let me eplain my thinking:
1) First of all - after you have enough farms, you don't plant them over and over again. Basically, advanced civs with big farms can do one harvest and stop farming for next 20-30 minutes. The time is not the limiting facor anymore. Considering wells and fences everywhere - we talk about advanced civ.
2) In those layouts you basically "detach" seeding plots from farm plots and attach them to harvests. You can have one seeding plot per HARVEST (1:9) - considering you have over two HARVESTS, you can make 2 or 3 seeding plots per 9 carrot plots but you dont water them at the same time.
3) You can have way more seeding plots than actually needed. Combined with seed storage room it makes it more fool proof. You can store seeds for times when someone screws up or start the seeding plots again when you're getting low on seeds. In our "pro" villages we often have 1-2 handcarts of seeds per seeding plot.

shoukanjuu · 2018-03-19 07:20:58

Hey…what about this: crop rotation, and two wells per row, but no cisterns.

With one well for a single row, and alternating between carrots and wheat, as long as you take out a second portion of water each cycle, then you'll never run out. You'll need six soil every epoch, so you'll need two berry bushes, and the water for the compost…and best to alternate them, so you only have to dedicate one spot for compost, and then you'll need water to make the dough every 10 years. You would end up with 2 extra water from the second well every epoch, so…take out an extra water every time you compost and send it off for other uses.

You'd only need 1 seed row to support 10 rows using crop rotation.

Joriom · 2018-03-19 09:16:46

shoukanjuu wrote:

Hey…what about this: crop rotation, and two wells per row, but no cisterns.
With one well for a single row, and alternating between carrots and wheat, as long as you take out a second portion of water each cycle, then you'll never run out. You'll need six soil every epoch, so you'll need two berry bushes, and the water for the compost…and best to alternate them, so you only have to dedicate one spot for compost, and then you'll need water to make the dough every 10 years. You would end up with 2 extra water from the second well every epoch, so…take out an extra water every time you compost and send it off for other uses.
You'd only need 1 seed row to support 10 rows using crop rotation.

Crop rotation - no. To hard to teach others how to do it properly. And thats the main point - self explanatory, simple farms that are hard to screw up. Thats why we split carrots and carrot seed plot away from each other in advanced civs.

2 wells per 1 plot - that would be perfect, best solution. Its just simply unreal to achieve. In bigger settlemets you need 20-30 carrot rows just to be safe. That would make 40-60 wells, which equals to 400-600 round stones. Good luck with that. On server 11 we managed to build around 20 wells with 10 cisterns for our farm.... with combined effort of over 10 people with voice chat over 10 generations... Don't count on that in random villages/towns. The more stones you collect - the further you need to go looking for that. That means hand carts of baskets, full clothing, pies for travel, many people doing this... while rest supports them keeping village alive during those trips.

But even with perfect layout of 2 wells per plot - you'll get dumbass who dries two wells to water one harvest... and second one dries two more to water compost and berry bushes. So you ALWAYS need "failsafe" ponds nearby.

shoukanjuu · 2018-03-19 17:01:59

Joriom wrote:

And thats the main point - self explanatory, simple farms that are hard to screw up.

That means unregulated, naked carrot farming for raw consumption. There is no layout so simple that it won’t be used contrary to the intent of the designer. If you aren’t solving the problem of communicating through the generations of turnover, than…you’re playing a different game.

Joriom wrote:

you'll get dumbass who dries two wells to water one harvest... and second one dries two more to water compost and berry bushes. So you ALWAYS need "failsafe" ponds nearby.

Then this is going to be true in EVERY plan that uses wells. So ANY plan involving wells is subject to the same criticism.

As for the number of wells being unrealistic, it is not any less feasible than farming for raw carrot consumption. The use of water for raw carrots vs carrots for carrot pies is neck-and-neck, if you are composting and growing domestic berries and wheat (for either goal). It may APPEAR to you that you are able to produce more food with less water by farming for raw carrot consumption, but that is due to the volume of carrots. No system, no design, no method changes that relationship between the amount of water available and the size of the population you can support. It’s not a problem you can design your way past, because the game was DESIGNED that way.

Jadajen · 2018-03-19 22:34:22

This post address all of the concerns brought about for this design, and some of the other designs brought up in the forum. All of which were considered in the design of this farm.

1.

Matok wrote:

Are the seed tiles for seed storage or seed growing?

The seed tiles are for growing seeds, therefore, compost should be delivered to a box on the west side of the farm. Delivery of soil is not necessary but ideal, one could simply fetch it themselves but hopefully there is a compsoter to to this.

The seed ratio used is (4 carrot: 1 seed), this nets additional seed every so often which can be stored.

2.

InSpace wrote:

Compact space isn't a good idea

This farm was designed to be compact intentionally, while at the same time leaving exactly enough space to get things done. The reason compact IS good, is because time is a resource and traveling an uneccisary distance is a waste of resources. This is related to the next concern.

3.

Joriom wrote:

6 basket for 12 plots?
I think you got the ratios wrong.
For efficient collection you need 5 baskets for 3 plots.

There are pictured 8 baskets to the North. This is not because 8 baskets is enough for 12 plots, but rather 8 baskets fit inside 2 box’s. Therefore, up to 8 empty baskets can be stored in these boxes. Full baskets should be placed in the carts outside. One would also imagine empty baskets in the carts outside.

The goal is not to leave baskets of carrots lying around, but quickly store/disseminate them to the village. Empty baskets should be taken to the farm, freeing up space all around the village (they usually get too messy and are littered with empty/half full baskets)

The reason for this is efficiency of space and time. Putting enough baskets for each plot right next to that plot is extremely inefficient space-wise. Not to mention that many carrots are eaten by farmers during collection meaning plenty of baskets have only 2 or 1 carrot by the time the farming is over— farthing wasting space. By using only 8 baskets and storing the full ones, and then placing empty ones. You can intentionally fill each basket to 3 and not waste space or time.

4.

Concerning wells and cisterns:

Dry wells are unavoidable all long as there are players who cannot properly use them. It is 100% likely they will be emptied in your lifetime. Not to mention inexperienced players will use your farm design when you aren’t there to explain it. That was taken into consideration for this design— usabillity by new players. The job of water fetcher, at this point in time, is something I see a necessary for a high output farm. Cisterns are hard to mess up and inform someone new who find the farm exactly what needs to happen. Carts with water skins also make this apparent.

5.

Concerning one giant farm:

This farm was not designed as a farm once and stop. It was designed to be a continuous output. The reason for this is because farms that stop lead to farmers wondering off and never coming back. As pointed out, naked people consume too many carrots to reasonable assume people will stay fed (a reason I personally am an advocate of pie marketing).

Additionally, giant farms tend to not have dedicated seed, often move about the map, grow holes, become disorganized and cluttered. Baskets everywhere, epoeple everywhere, people eating seeds. Bad idea.

Not every aspect of this design is perfect under every potential lens this game can be evaluated. Instead a wholistic approach was taken, given consideration to: usability, space, time, hard numbers, work flow, and difficulty to destroy. I think thats what our villages need in order to be successful.
I think different rules apply when you are farming on your custom server where only you or experienced players work, even if the hard numbers stay the same.

Casdir · 2018-03-19 23:07:26

You know what would be nice? to be able to stash a whole carrot row in one basket. Doesn't seem all that unrealistic, does it?
Or being able to pick the whole row at once instead of just one carrot at the time.

I think that would make the farming process certainly more enjoyable and less of a pain in the butt.

Last edited by Casdir (2018-03-20 04:06:48)

Joriom · 2018-03-20 03:39:22

Jadajen wrote:

3.
Joriom wrote:
6 basket for 12 plots?
I think you got the ratios wrong.
For efficient collection you need 5 baskets for 3 plots.
The reason for this is efficiency of space and time. Putting enough baskets for each plot right next to that plot is extremely inefficient space-wise.

I can agree with all but one point there. I still believe that time wasted for each plot while running 4-5 times with single carrot to reach basket 4-8 tiles away is worse than space wasted for more baskets near the plots. With 2 baskets near a plot - you can collect all the carrots in like... 3-4 seconds. Which is less time than single trip with SINGLE carrot in your design i believe. So even if you need to move baskets later - I would presume you save at least 10 seconds per plot - over 2 minutes per one harvest? 4% of your life.

pein · 2018-04-10 02:39:55

wells are useless, someone will take the last bit, and then its empty you cant fill it.
once i was putting it back after was empty, not sure on that, i didnt move and used the right click right after, i would like to know if its possible, should be
anyway 10 hours is too long when longest family lasted 8 hours

cisterns are a good ideea, we tested on the other run, i was stumbling into some limestone and got the ideea of making a cistern. was a nce colony where they were getting old, mom started popping kids, 3 at a time, we were many, we went on fetching water than one guy told we should move the plots, exactly my idea, we started moving the soil next to the water, 4+2 ponds pretty close.
then i came up with making a cistern, fetched the limestone, they wanted to put next to farm, i told them to put further away, i made two cisterns next to 4 and 5 ponds, and was better cause the main ones depleted fast, while the distant ones were regenerating by that time. we made carts and started over-farming.

also carrots give 7 seeds from 5 carrots now.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2018-03-18 14:40:50

Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#2 2018-03-18 14:44:49

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#3 2018-03-18 14:57:58

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#4 2018-03-19 00:04:26

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#5 2018-03-19 02:20:26

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#6 2018-03-19 02:35:23

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#7 2018-03-19 03:45:22

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#8 2018-03-19 04:00:56

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#9 2018-03-19 04:29:27

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#10 2018-03-19 05:55:32

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#11 2018-03-19 07:20:58

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#12 2018-03-19 09:16:46

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#13 2018-03-19 17:01:59

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#14 2018-03-19 22:34:22

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#15 2018-03-19 23:07:26

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#16 2018-03-20 03:39:22

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

#17 2018-04-10 02:39:55

Re: Ideal Farm Layout for Adv. Civilization (edit: *Ideal Carrot Farm)

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