A whoops on the curse radius

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-24 21:28:26

Curse blocking radius was 50. Once you curse someone, they can't be born w/in 50 tiles of you for the next 7 days.

If enough people curse someone, so that there's no where for them to be born, they go to d-town.

How effective is this?

In the past 21 hours, only three spawns (out of 2000+ spawns) have gone to d-town, and they were all for the same player, who just happens to be the most cursed player (2x more curses than any other player, 94 people have them curse blocked currently).

So, even that "monster" is barely going to d-town (they spawned 31 times total, and only went to d-town thrice).

The solution is to increase the radius and see how that changes things.

I just cranked the radius up to 200.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-09-24 21:43:06

Well if it doesn't work, he'll be back on the discord to try and brag like he always does, and we'll let ya know.

Last edited by Grim_Arbiter (2019-09-24 21:43:27)

Coconut Fruit · 2019-09-24 22:21:38

It is going in good direction but I still wish we could back to old cursing system or at least give it a try in rift.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-24 22:33:28

I think we did use the old cursing system in the rift for a while.

The problem with the old system is that it requires consensus.

If someone does something really nasty to you in isolation, and you curse them, you might see them again in the next life with the old system. Getting them away from you would require 8 other witnesses to agree, and then the person would be sent away from everyone (extraordinary punishment requires extraordinary agreement).

Dodge · 2019-09-24 23:22:15

jasonrohrer wrote:

I think we did use the old cursing system in the rift for a while.
The problem with the old system is that it requires consensus.
If someone does something really nasty to you in isolation, and you curse them, you might see them again in the next life with the old system. Getting them away from you would require 8 other witnesses to agree, and then the person would be sent away from everyone (extraordinary punishment requires extraordinary agreement).

You probably have the curse numbers so you can see that consensus is not an issue over time.

Yes the current curse system has more immediate results but griefers can slip trough the cracks or exploit it.

Cursing someone now is basicallly saying "not my problem go grief other players" and the griefer remains unpunished.

Having both curse systems in place would be ideal, short term effect + long term consequences.

fug · 2019-09-24 23:23:52

A two minute stay in donkey town isn't exactly a punishment now is it? I'm not sure how much more effective the system is going to be but there's still the potential to just suicide until an available mother pops up into the rift (which has been abused by the person with the most curses.)

Also isn't this some sort of giant red flag that someone has more curses than we have players online at any given moment? To put in perspective this person would be staying in DT for the 5 hour threshold with three curses and they've manged to get to that point in a single week. Maybe doing like a hybrid approach would be better in the long run. At the very least having a minimum sentence would help as currently you can just cheat yourself out of DT if you land there.

Coconut Fruit · 2019-09-24 23:30:20

I mean I'm fine playing with him next life if he isn't regular grieffer, if he is he would end up in donkey town eventually and that would be good for whole rift and I would be more happy with that.
Also I don't exactly know how old mechanics worked. How much time a person had to get 8 curses before going to donkey town? If each given curse was expiring after let's say 5 days then it's fine, but if it had to be done through one life then yeah, it would be pointless. I also don't know for how long people were going to donkey town. Yet this mechanics worked for me, when I was new I decided to not grieff because I didn't want to go to DT for unknown amount of time.

DestinyCall · 2019-09-24 23:49:42

jasonrohrer wrote:

I think we did use the old cursing system in the rift for a while.
The problem with the old system is that it requires consensus.
If someone does something really nasty to you in isolation, and you curse them, you might see them again in the next life with the old system. Getting them away from you would require 8 other witnesses to agree, and then the person would be sent away from everyone (extraordinary punishment requires extraordinary agreement).

Actually, I think the curse system was already pretty gutted before the rift started. You could not curse non-family and you could spawn as an Eve by spamming /die to get a free ticket to grief with zero consequences.

fug · 2019-09-24 23:50:48

Coconut Fruit wrote:

I mean I'm fine playing with him next life if he isn't regular grieffer, if he is he would end up in donkey town eventually and that would be good for whole rift and I would be more happy with that.
Also I don't exactly know how old mechanics worked. How much time a person had to get 8 curses before going to donkey town? If each given curse was expiring after let's say 5 days then it's fine, but if it had to be done through one life then yeah, it would be pointless. I also don't know for how long people were going to donkey town. Yet this mechanics worked for me, when I was new I decided to not grieff because I didn't want to go to DT for unknown amount of time.

Original system: Get 8+ curses at any point and go to DT. Every curse after 8 was an additional hour which meant if you were a real asshole as you got close you could get an extended stay. I believe on person managed to get 14 hours of DT at one time because they asked everyone to curse them. Good system when it worked.

Shitty Eddies system: Added a threshold system which punished players for having a high lifetime score (but didn't have a redemption part to it.) This meant naturally anyone who played the game a lot had a much lower threshold with much longer sentences (Highest tier was 70~ total lifetime curses which meant anytime you had 3 curses you were sent to DT for five hours.) It works fine if someone is nonstop griefing like we have now but a bunch of veteran players had very low thresholds due to how much time they put into the game.

Rift system: Cursing someone just blocks them from being born around you. Original 50 tiles but now buffed to 200. The issue here is you can just suicide if you end up in DT and try to spawn into the rift like normal (which has been proven to be successful by the troll.) Rift system just pushes the person to grief other places if the Eve window is closed or generally just produces an Eve who then griefs others trying to build. Haven't seen the buffed radius in action but I'm sure I'll be watching for donkey spawns on the life logs now.

DestinyCall wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
I think we did use the old cursing system in the rift for a while.
The problem with the old system is that it requires consensus.
If someone does something really nasty to you in isolation, and you curse them, you might see them again in the next life with the old system. Getting them away from you would require 8 other witnesses to agree, and then the person would be sent away from everyone (extraordinary punishment requires extraordinary agreement).
Actually, I think the curse system was already pretty gutted before the rift started. You could not curse non-family and you could spawn as an Eve by spamming /die to get a free ticket to grief with zero consequences.

Absolutely gutted to say the least. Removing cross family cursing basically just made it so you could grief endlessly as an Eve (somewhat like you are seeing now). Not to mention he added that timer that only allows you to curse x minutes after death (which was originally only a minute...) The curse system has been useless for a while and I'm hoping he gives it back some teeth.

Last edited by fug (2019-09-24 23:52:46)

The_Anabaptist · 2019-09-25 00:38:44

So the new meta for peaceful player is: Any baby born outside of town is automatically abandoned. Gotcha! One more excuse for me to not leave the cart in the wilderness.

The_Anabaptist

Joseph Stalin · 2019-09-25 00:47:27

just make it so that if you somehow end up in dt you cant play normally for 24 real life hours

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-25 01:16:34

That's not a bad idea, Joseph.

However, I'm really hesitant about proscribing specific punishments. I don't have specific ideas in mind for how I want players to play this game, or what the "right way" is.

That's why I like this new system better. You get to define "right" and "wrong" for yourself. If someone bugs you, you can easily curse them (you get one token every 30 minutes), and you will be VERY unlikely to see them again for the next week. They can't spawn w/in 200 tiles of your location. Yes, they might be able to find you, but it will be difficult. The rift is big. It's easy to walk from one edge to another, but much hard to explore the whole thing.

And even if they do find you from 200+ tiles away, you've got a fence, right?

So they're more likely to go after other people than you, in other families, and get cursed by them too. If they bug enough, they will be blocked.

But each person can define what "bad" is for them, without me imposing any judgement.

fug · 2019-09-25 03:48:08

I mean there should be some basic time block to ensure abuse like suiciding as a donkey isn't a viable option to avoid punishment. We already have proof of this occurring and is still something that can happen even with the ban radius being extended. Spawn as a donkey? Just call out in the discord for someone to walk into the wilderness to try to birth you. This completely bypasses the whole system and all it requires is you have a friend to spawn you in somewhere on the map which defeats the purpose of 94 people cursing you.

While there might be various shades of grays in play scale isn't it safe to say someone who pisses off 94 people is clearly playing wrong? At the very least put some sort of restriction to keep people in DT if they don't reach old age as that at least puts a problematic player away for 46 minutes instead of being able to suicide in two minutes and potentially come straight back to the rift.

pein · 2019-09-25 04:37:02

I mean the radius of 200 is 400 tiles, except border cities
rift size is 720×720
This is a hidden buff to central cities (generally non-existent cause all sides are dangerous, especially if roads lead there), as they cover more area to all sides, note that 200 radius is 400 tiles, and as diagonals are the same distance, it's a 400×400 block. As we saw we had mostly corner cities and this radius would cut down the half of curse range. Exactly calculated cities, 4 of them would cover 25% of rift, which would look like this ideally:

towns in these spots would block out most griefers, if someone gets 4 curses over the week, they are blocked out of the whole rift.But things are never ideal and players move around, so that can be much worse.

Just note that cursing someone would mean that you can't be born to them either? So if they manage to born there they block you out of rift in return? Let's say you got 9 griefers you cursed this week, and they all block off areas for you, and they curse you for killing them, then you can easily go donkey town with 1 curse?

The other problem that if you have a corner town, which makes sense, cause you need 50% less walls, then all griefers are born in the middle of the map?

How about a split the map into 9 pieces, and if anyone who cursed you are inside that plot, you can't be born there if they are inside?

Let's say there are 5 types of people:
1 griefs each life, gets many curses
2 selfish, annoying, tries to be a hero, gets a few curses.
3 overly sensitive and curses everyone who looks at him.
4 cursing back anyone
5 doesn't know about curses, doesn't do much to get cursed

So there are 'black', 'grey' and 'white' hat groups. Now black hats need to be banished, grey hats will be grouped (like roleplayers and minmaxers will eventually block each other, but they still got options, and they less likely to be cursed in their group)
So basically only new players and extremely passive players will do any rotation.

I remember the other day i went from middle east city to bottom corner, had zero tarry spots and kind of middle of the map and 200 north nothing around it. So quite a lot of spots are unviable.

After the eve window closes, curses will matter more cause most players will be same spots. And that part of the game is quite the showdown when proper wars start.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-25 05:54:44

Curses are unilateral.

You curse someone, they can't be born near you for 7 days.

But you can still be born near them (unless they curse you back).

testo · 2019-09-25 09:04:20

Are the current curse system and its command even working? I tried cursing someone yesterday with her name but it didn´t work. Girl was a killer and the person he killed had to curse her using "curse you" instead.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-25 16:37:17

Seems to be working on my test server.

Can someone confirm? Does cursing by name work in the live game?

wondible · 2019-09-25 16:45:24

jasonrohrer wrote:

Seems to be working on my test server.
Can someone confirm? Does cursing by name work in the live game?

I was getting 'dings' on Saturday. Did run into the same player again, but the character was older than me there.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-25 17:12:24

Also, only 3 people sent to d-town in the past 16 hours (after Eve window closed). And two of them were the same person.

The most cursed person is still slipping through w/out going to d-town (94 curses), but they only lived one life.

The person who went to d-town twice only has 20 curses, by comparison. They lived 26 lives.

During that same time:

1753 Deaths
139 Murders (8%)

The player who went to d-town twice only contributed 4 murders.

The most cursed player (94 curses) who only lived one life did not contribute any murders.

One player contributed 9 murders. They are the third-most cursed person, with 32 curses. They lived 12 lives. They never went to d-town, and they were born to 12 different players (never the same mother account twice). So they weren't using a "mothership" exploit.

Looks like I need to increase the radius.

I'm tempted to go nuts here, as an experiment, and make the radius the entire rift. Just to see what happens. So if someone who has cursed you is currently playing, you go to d-town. That's pretty extreme, I know, but I just want to see what effect that has.

In the past 17 hours, there were 445 active players.

381 players have at least one curse against them.

Of the 445 active players in the past 17 hours, 136 of them have at least one curse against them.

Now, the problem here is spurious curses. 194 people only have a single curse against them. It seems pretty extreme to send them to d-town if that one person just happens to be playing later on.

It seems like the number of curses against you could be some kind of multiplier on the radius. Let's say that if 10+ people have cursed you, the radius should be the whole rift (so if ANY of those people are playing, you go to d-town). The 10+ category affects only 28 players.

The diagonal rift radius is 1001. Let's call it 1000. So the base radius should be 100, multiplied by your total number of active curses against you. So if one person has cursed you, you will be born 100+ away from them if they are playing. If 5 people have cursed you, you will be born 500+ away from them, if any of them are playing. And if 10 people have cursed you, you will be born in d-town if any of those people are playing.

Note that you can still go to d-town with 5 curses if enough of those people are playing that they cover all fertile mothers with their radii.

Thaulos · 2019-09-25 17:14:20

Please don't do the max radius experiment lol

Thaulos · 2019-09-25 17:18:26

Are you able to check on average how many "active curses" a cursed player has when joining in?

Meaning: at the moment of birth, are there more than one person already playing with an active curse on the baby? Or maybe 2? 3?

Even if a player has hundreds of curses, how much does the average player play per day/week? Can we expect individual players to "body block" their cursed players for than a couple hours a week? A week has a lot of hours.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-09-25 17:20:16)

Twisted · 2019-09-25 17:27:55

If you do the max radius experiment people will probably abuse it to finally play outside the rift again.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The diagonal rift radius is 1001. Let's call it 1000. So the base radius should be 100, multiplied by your total number of active curses against you. So if one person has cursed you, you will be born 100+ away from them if they are playing. If 5 people have cursed you, you will be born 500+ away from them, if any of them are playing. And if 10 people have cursed you, you will be born in d-town if any of those people are playing.

I actually really like the sound of this. It sounds like a very simple and effective solution, although I might be missing something.

Thaulos · 2019-09-25 17:32:20

I would like to remind everyone on how exploitable that kind of system is. We need a certain amount of minimum curses to avoid griefers being able to band together and send people to donkey town.

@Twisted you specially should be very aware of how this kind of thing can be abused. What if all griefers in discord cursed you during a live stream? You would be pretty much put on donkey town for the rest of the week.

miskas · 2019-09-25 17:42:53

BTW the most murderous region of earth has a Daily murder rate of 0.00014% I would be happy if Ohol reaches a daily rate of 1%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Brazil

PS: I like the Idea of multiplier

Last edited by miskas (2019-09-25 17:47:36)

Dodge · 2019-09-25 17:46:10

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm tempted to go nuts here, as an experiment, and make the radius the entire rift. Just to see what happens. So if someone who has cursed you is currently playing, you go to d-town. That's pretty extreme, I know, but I just want to see what effect that has.

Great idea!!!!

Way way better than having a simple and straight forward curse system

Why make it simple when it can be complicated as fuck

Maybe in one year the curse system will have tile perfect radius by calculating pi radius divided by 10 over the distance between earth and the sun multiplied the pyramids location relative to atlantis.

Il go get my diving gear atlantis aint gonna find itself, these griefers wont know what's going to hit em when i find the lost city!

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A whoops on the curse radius

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