Arc population graph

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-19 23:06:51

The previous mini-arc was ended by there being only one mother left and 5 babies (still plenty of families).

The arc before that was "normal" and lasted roughly 16 hours after the Eve window closed. Here's the family population graph:

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-19 23:07:42

There are two Morse families b/c of a bug in the naming code. If an Eve has no name, and you name her, she takes your family name. I'll fix that.

NiGB0 · 2019-09-20 05:43:06

Don't fix it, because when an eve comes to your town she must have your lastname.

pein · 2019-09-20 06:54:17

cant be some interesting fail condition instead of mindless killing? Anything like building contest or capture the flag or reaching an amount of resources deposited on a shrine. Or even time based resets which is not 16 hours. Some of us is working and maybe plays 1 hour a day, now if it's resets every day randomly it's quite bad.

Also i would prefer to see the arc information when i join the game, how long is going, which arc it is, stuff like that.

CatX · 2019-09-20 07:21:09

pein wrote:

cant be some interesting fail condition instead of mindless killing?

I agree with this.

Whatever the fail condition is, it will color everyone's experiences in the game. Not only because griefers are going to do whatever it takes to reset the Arc, but because normal players will join in on the activity once the Arc feels unlivable. So to end the Arc, one should be forced to do something constructive, and not just kill other families.

I'd also like it if the work people did wasn't lost automatically. What if the Apocalypse just moves everyone into a new Rift instead? The whole map could be a pattern of Rifts, an the hardest technology could be bridge building. So eventually, it could be possible to return to the old towns.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-20 16:20:00

Any "constructive" end-trigger activity will just be seen in a negative light, though right?

I mean, there IS a "constructive" activity of building the End Tower. (Not sure it's currently possible, due to dark nosaj rarity, but...)

If constructing something or "doing something positive" ends the arc, then griefers will try to do that thing, and non-griefers will try to stop them.

And if that thing is made impossible because of this conflict, then the arc never ends.

Here's the thing that's interesting to me:

The power to keep the arc going is currently in the hands of the expert players.

If you have coordinated griefing on Discord, why no coordinated arc-extension?

Say there are 4 fams left, and one is about to die out. Run over there and help them. Don't let them die.

Or another expert plan: make a central village on the map, a mixing pot, where you bring one mother from each family, to keep each family line alive and protected in optimal conditions.

These kinds of things are interesting, to me, because they require long-term cooperation and so on.

It is HARD to keep 2+ fams alive long-term. That's the point. Hard is interesting. How the hell can you possibly do it? How can you organize that many disconnected people? I don't know! That's the puzzle that you're supposed to solve.

But some arcs have lasted way way longer than others. So... it can be done.

(I am tweaking some things with girl babies to make sure that families never die out just due to RNG.... once that is fixed, the power really will be in your hands.... which is where I want the power to be!)

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-20 16:21:19

Also, would it help if you got warnings when some family was near extinction?

You get notices when families die out....

But what about: JONES FAMILY IN DECLINE when they cross some threshold?

DestinyCall · 2019-09-20 16:41:29

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, would it help if you got warnings when some family was near extinction?
You get notices when families die out....
But what about: JONES FAMILY IN DECLINE when they cross some threshold?

I am one of those players who can't play the game without using zoom mod and that mod also tells me how many fertile females are left in my family. I find this information EXTREMELY useful for guiding my actions when my village is on the brink of disaster. And also it gives me hope when I look around and can't find a single girl, but there's actually a couple of them somewhere on the map.

But if it is a global announcement "One girl left in Jones Family!" I kind of feel like that might just act as a call for all the griefers to come hunt down the last girl ...

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-09-20 16:44:22)

Don Holm · 2019-09-20 17:41:30

Maybe we could remove war swords temporary, then focus on updates to help us build diverse civilizations with different structures and monuments, more crops and more tools, more advanced security systems, then add the sword back Cause I find the game is still in the middle of development and sword are just slowing us down. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with swords, but they are not supposed to be integrated at this stage of the game. Overall, the game is amazing we just need to push sword away for a bit to think straight and extend a bit the arc (I wanna enjoy a longer arc please)

Coconut Fruit · 2019-09-20 19:38:58

jasonrohrer wrote:

The power to keep the arc going is currently in the hands of the expert players.
If you have coordinated griefing on Discord, why no coordinated arc-extension?
Say there are 4 fams left, and one is about to die out. Run over there and help them. Don't let them die.

I'm an expert player but when I see the town I live in is grieffed, especially by a smart grieffer then I'm like "fck this place, I'm out". Grieffing makes people lose motivation to work, so they just stay near a fire or in kitchen and do nothing constructive - that's another thing I hate, people not working. Grieffing and laziness are killing my will to play.

Last edited by Coconut Fruit (2019-09-20 19:39:18)

The_Anabaptist · 2019-09-20 20:13:04

jasonrohrer wrote:

Here's the thing that's interesting to me:
The power to keep the arc going is currently in the hands of the expert players.
If you have coordinated griefing on Discord, why no coordinated arc-extension?
Say there are 4 fams left, and one is about to die out. Run over there and help them. Don't let them die.
Or another expert plan: make a central village on the map, a mixing pot, where you bring one mother from each family, to keep each family line alive and protected in optimal conditions.
These kinds of things are interesting, to me, because they require long-term cooperation and so on.
It is HARD to keep 2+ fams alive long-term. That's the point. Hard is interesting. How the hell can you possibly do it? How can you organize that many disconnected people? I don't know! That's the puzzle that you're supposed to solve.

It is the outside tools that are making this an asymmetrical game between the wolves and the sheep. I'm a purist in that I want to play it the way you created it Jason. I don't use Discord. I don't use mods. No 3rd party elements of any sort. But from your above quote, it feels as if you have changed your own accepted level of purity for the game. If that is the case, then officially say so. If that is the case, then build or at least sanction the tools & mods necessary to level the playing field please.

The_Anabaptist

Keyin · 2019-09-20 20:58:55

I'd be interested to see these population graphs but excluding males and women 40+

don't know if that is possible.

It doesn't give the whole picture, as a family composed of only 3 young girls would be better off than one made up of 1 young girl + a bunch of men.

Last edited by Keyin (2019-09-20 20:59:13)

CatX · 2019-09-20 21:06:25

jasonrohrer wrote:

I mean, there IS a "constructive" activity of building the End Tower. (Not sure it's currently possible, due to dark nosaj rarity, but...)

It seems to be extremely hard right now, yes. But back when it was easier, the disadvantage with the Dark Nosaj was that you didn't need high tech to complete one. Even if the ingredients were readily available, it would reset the Arc too soon. Also, End Towers were usually built in secrecy. It was not a project the player base worked on together.

jasonrohrer wrote:

If constructing something or "doing something positive" ends the arc, then griefers will try to do that thing, and non-griefers will try to stop them.
And if that thing is made impossible because of this conflict, then the arc never ends.

Ideally the ending of the arc should not be dependent on griefers at all...

jasonrohrer wrote:

Here's the thing that's interesting to me:
The power to keep the arc going is currently in the hands of the expert players.
...
It is HARD to keep 2+ fams alive long-term. That's the point. Hard is interesting. How the hell can you possibly do it? How can you organize that many disconnected people? I don't know! That's the puzzle that you're supposed to solve.

But you can give us a puzzle that does not rely on griefers to make it hard.

For example:

"30 years to winter. That's when all crops dies and if you don't have a fire going and plenty of wood to burn by then, you die as well."

or

"The volcano is stable now, but 50 years from now it becomes unstable. You will be living on a ticking bomb. If you do not manage to build four end towers around the volcano base, the apocalypse will happen."

Also, don't forget that what is interesting to someone studying the events of the Arc and the development of the families from outside is not the same as what is interesting to people living lives ingame. The game, with or without a Rift, should still offer all the different possibilities of interesting experiences that it can. Sometimes, running around alone and exploring is interesting, especially if you haven't done so before. You're learning to avoid bugs and boars and surviving in the wild. Sometimes, what someone finds interesting is peaceful roleplay - marrying or making friends. Building structures. Learning something new. When I want to learn, I do it on one of the other servers. Back when I learned forging, I did it in the tutorial area. There's usually not time nor opportunity to learn more advanced stuff on the main server.

Consider that - one of the most interesting things to do in the game, learning how to do stuff, is best done alone, off the main server.

Shouldn't that be a bigger part of the game? "Hey, uncle Mac, how do you build a diesel engine?" "Oh, I'm so glad someone is interested in learning! Come, let me show you the first few steps. I'm not sure we'll be able to complete it this life, but at least you'll have a basic understanding." Now that would be an interesting life. Not an interesting story perhaps. Nothing to entertain people viewing it from the outside. But deeply satisfying.

There will always be griefers, but the game should strive to make the griefers unimportant to the overall tale of what the game is. That's when the game will be truly interesting - to me at least.

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-09-20 21:36:03

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, would it help if you got warnings when some family was near extinction?
You get notices when families die out....
But what about: JONES FAMILY IN DECLINE when they cross some threshold?

Yes, this would be good. You already set a trigger in the code for when there are fewer than three potentially fertile females outside the eve window... what if we got a message when that happened?

It would be an invite for greifers, but also for players.

Last edited by BlueDiamondAvatar (2019-09-20 21:36:43)

BladeWoods · 2019-09-20 21:45:43

jasonrohrer wrote:

The power to keep the arc going is currently in the hands of the expert players.
If you have coordinated griefing on Discord, why no coordinated arc-extension?
Say there are 4 fams left, and one is about to die out. Run over there and help them. Don't let them die.
Or another expert plan: make a central village on the map, a mixing pot, where you bring one mother from each family, to keep each family line alive and protected in optimal conditions.

Here's some fundamental problems with trying to do coordinated arc-extension:

1) Which family needs my help? And a one-time notification in-game for that doesn't help me too much if we're outside the game trying to coordinate.
Would need something like a live family & population per family chart. But any tool might be as great or better of a tool for griefers to use for targeting.
It's hard for me to guess if things would be better or worse with an in-game notification when a family gets into trouble.

2) Survival is something that happens continuously, destruction only needs to happen once. To fully protect an arc you'd need a group of people to 24/7 monitor the family populations to come in where and whenever one gets low, meanwhile a group of griefers can come in at any time of the day, at any family, and try to wipe it. Certainly not gonna happen with the current size of the playerbase, maybe if it was much larger.

Anhigen · 2019-09-20 22:18:41

CatX wrote:

"30 years to winter. That's when all crops dies and if you don't have a fire going and plenty of wood to burn by then, you die as well."

First, winter is coming, and second, yeah, global events that apply to all people tend to make those people come together--we see that in the real world all the time. I think this is one of the reasonings behind going to war against different families too, but again--due to our solo play issue--this doesn't apply to all members of the family unilaterally; you can avoid/ignore war if you wanted to but could you avoid/ignore winter?

Events where resources double, a spring/summer if you will, are interesting because they suddenly cause abundance and we know surplus causes behavior change in people--rather starkly--as well. Temperature changes, all that jazz, sounds like fun stuff, but events that are "tough" don't end our problems either. I mean, they would just give us another thing that's tough, and if you thought laziness was an issue now... jus think of the frustration you would feel knowing this camp won't survive because too many people are simply enjoying that "the most interesting things to do in the game, learning how to do stuff, [are] best done alone." Winter? I don't care, I'm just doing an all black clothing run, that's my enjoyment.

Building conditions that require cooperation to succeed but don't create fail states when people don't come together (because of various player interests, rng, etc) are tricky, it seems.

DestinyCall wrote:

But if it is a global announcement "One girl left in Jones Family!" I kind of feel like that might just act as a call for all the griefers to come hunt down the last girl ...

I'm hesitant about that issue too--it does sound juicy, even to me, to have the power to kill off someone's bloodline. But really, I think the global announcements about families are so... hunger gamey? I mean, they don't really fit in general and it's not the kind of in game heads up thing I want more of. I think that introduces solutions at a macro level instead of a more localized one. Why not just have a hud that lists all family names in the top right corner and a bunch of other information that people have moded/cheated into the game? That's a bit tangential, but what I'm getting at is something like... I don't really know what or who is "out there" when I'm playing and I don't need to know either. These radios seem like a nifty kit but there isn't much interaction with other families, outside of war, before that, right? If it was never announced that there are two families left, which is just a way of warning that the arc may end soon--don't get too attached--would I ever know that other families existed? Sure I could play multiple lives, and see the other villages, but elders aren't telling me that the Halcoms are to the north, bring a cart of wheat and they'll trade it for some clay or idk something. I just have no reason to know or care about other families in the rift, despite all my efforts in maintaining and growing my village being entirely dependent on those foreign families surviving as well.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Expert plan: make a central village on the map, a mixing pot, where you bring one mother from each family, to keep each family line alive and protected in optimal conditions.

I've played in one multi-family village and I flippin loved it--it was so cool. It was a great way of seeing the multiple language feature, and learning two languages was so fun too. It was wicked, and that certainly sounds like an idea I'm keen on introducing in some capacity, but we also have challenges, like limited speech and foreign languages, that are fundamental to the game and it's difficulty. If the solution to language barriers is to simply communicate outside the game I don't get the sense that I'm "winning" or "over coming" the challenge that this unique game has created. Like short term solution, for sure, but if it worked that this process was organic and also possible in game I'd be happier. Might just be something to stew over a little longer tho as that sounds like big(ger) picture nut to crack. In the meantime, I guess we gotta get organized

DestinyCall · 2019-09-20 22:36:06

Regarding language barriers, we do now have a fairly decent way to communicate with other families, if you are motivated and willing.

Make some paper, a charcosl pencil and a rubber ball. Write "Peace" or something on the paper. Head over to the town and drop the paper by someone who doesn't look too busy. Wait for them to finish reading ... then erase the messsge using rubber ball and write something new. Drop the paper and pencil.

I did this once to tell a family about two iron deposits located very close to their village. I was playing a wandering life, so I was miles away from home. I found the paper in an abandoned town and made the rubber ball myself. It took a very long time and was a bit chaotic, but we had several nice conversations and I was eventually able to get someone to follow me to the iron before I died of extreme old age.

Anhigen · 2019-09-20 23:03:00

DestinyCall wrote:

Regarding language barriers, we do now have a fairly decent way to communicate with other families, if you are motivated and willing.

It's awesome you found a way of enjoying that challenge, I don't think the solution(s) we have incentivizes players surpassing those boundaries or risking/wasting their lives. For instance, you could simply pass down all known languages to your offspring and thus give them advantage. That slides up to, I think nicely, with the growing genetic fitness we as players can or should work on, but even then, with these extra languages, what do you do with them? Negotiate peace?

We don't really need to interact with other families, is what that highlights to me, unless we want to do something for own amusement. Which, is nice, but feels like the game could include more of, particularly when end states are built on how many families there are. Like, here we have tech that's going under used--I'm guessing--because there isn't a need for it. Novel, yeah, integral, mmmm... It ends war, but even then, you don't need to "end war".

CatX · 2019-09-20 23:16:36

Anhigen wrote:

First, winter is coming, and second, yeah, global events that apply to all people tend to make those people come together--we see that in the real world all the time. I think this is one of the reasonings behind going to war against different families too, but again--due to our solo play issue--this doesn't apply to all members of the family unilaterally; you can avoid/ignore war if you wanted to but could you avoid/ignore winter?

Move to the jungle? Perhaps it would make sense to build outposts where you could emigrate to during the harsh years?

I disagree that we can avoid war if we want to live in a city in the current build. Sure, we might be able to live a whole life without experiencing war. But as long as there are griefers teaming up, war will come to town, so it's just as present as a winter that might not come during your lifetime.

And since it seems that this is by design, all I'm saying is that if wars are there to make the game interesting, natural cycles or disasters would do the job just as well or even better.

To give the players more of a say in how bad the winter should be, perhaps add some technology to lessen the impact, like greenhouses with geothermal heating. Or let them move out of harm's way to the jungles and deserts.

Temperature changes, all that jazz, sounds like fun stuff, but events that are "tough" don't end our problems either. I mean, they would just give us another thing that's tough, and if you thought laziness was an issue now... jus think of the frustration you would feel knowing this camp won't survive because too many people are simply enjoying that "the most interesting things to do in the game, learning how to do stuff, [are] best done alone." Winter? I don't care, I'm just doing an all black clothing run, that's my enjoyment.

Well, the summers would be and should be a good time for people to do whatever they wanted without fear of dying any moment, if seasons were implemented.

And I don't think people's frustration with laziness would be any greater than it is right now anyway. If anything, it would give the complainers a reason to say "I told you so" more often.

Last edited by CatX (2019-09-20 23:19:46)

DestinyCall · 2019-09-20 23:21:34

I should add that the language barrier already disappears slowly, if two families live together for a while. Children learn the language naturally at a young age.

Using paper notes is only necessary for early encounters and long-distance trading. Or in my case, passing on useful information that I didn't need and others could benefit from. With the short Eve window and frequent griefing, multi-family towns are much less common than they once were. I'd like to see them make a come-back. It was fun to play in a town with other skin tones, instead of viewing anyone with the wrong character model as a potentisl threat.

Booklat1 · 2019-09-20 23:29:39

Anhigen wrote:

Like, here we have tech that's going under used--I'm guessing--because there isn't a need for it. Novel, yeah, integral, mmmm... It ends war, but even then, you don't need to "end war".

I think the techtree will need a redesign sometime soon. We both need to build up resource contention/scarcity along it as well as flesh out stages of technological advancement that are easily skipped/rushed through. It's a neat thing that we have two types of wells and three pumps, but the amount of time we spend on each stage is minimal. And then we reach diesel and it's either endgame or reset.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-09-19 23:06:51

Arc population graph

#2 2019-09-19 23:07:42

Re: Arc population graph

#3 2019-09-20 05:43:06

Re: Arc population graph

#4 2019-09-20 06:54:17

Re: Arc population graph

#5 2019-09-20 07:21:09

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#6 2019-09-20 16:20:00

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#7 2019-09-20 16:21:19

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#8 2019-09-20 16:41:29

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#9 2019-09-20 17:41:30

Re: Arc population graph

#10 2019-09-20 19:38:58

Re: Arc population graph

#11 2019-09-20 20:13:04

Re: Arc population graph

#12 2019-09-20 20:58:55

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#13 2019-09-20 21:06:25

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#14 2019-09-20 21:36:03

Re: Arc population graph

#15 2019-09-20 21:45:43

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#16 2019-09-20 22:18:41

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#17 2019-09-20 22:36:06

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#18 2019-09-20 23:03:00

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#19 2019-09-20 23:16:36

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#20 2019-09-20 23:21:34

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