Feedback Regarding Trading

miskas · 2019-07-30 11:56:05

No1: Trading Has to be profitable for both sides to exist.
(that means, the cost of production has to differ. The one is more efficient to one thing and the other to another, different tech, different specialization)
No2: Costs of trading need to be less than the cost of Production.
(The resources you give has to be in abundance to you but in scarcity for the other person and the resource you get has to be in scarcity to you but in abundance for the other person.
Thus Map resource distribution has to differ greatly for surpluses to be accumulated. One corner has greatly more Oil than the other but the other has greatly more Iron.)

No3: The goods you need has to be tradable. Also, the amount you need to trade has to be tradable
(Which goods of great value can be transported? A complete diesel engine is not for example.
Also how many logs would an engine cost? how many carts/people would you need to make the transaction? these all rise the costs )

No4: Trade has to be also cheaper in resources and time needed to be executed than Raiding/stealing.

No5: Long term Stability. You need stability to establish a trading tradition, to accumulate wealth and free time to invest in infrastructure( fences/marketplace/roads/horses/carts)

-------------------

Costs of trade:
Time to trade has to be less than the time to produce
Time of communication (add numbers! not words. Also add attention seek scream or doorbells, What if I am outside of your fence ready with goods but you never see me. http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7348 )
Time of transportation
Resources need it to make Transportation and transaction (people/carts)
Time to Organise (chose which goods can be traded, who will do it, where will do it, with whom, for what)

In the current design of the game, the First 3 basic rules and the 5th cant apply.
the only rule that can be applied is the 4th when fences are used and tradition of separatism exist.

That's my feedback, I have suggestions to make trading emerge in the game If you want them just say it.

Last edited by miskas (2019-10-10 12:28:59)

jasonrohrer · 2019-07-30 16:36:15

Good stuff, thank you!

Peremptive · 2019-07-30 17:38:36

Trade needs first and foremost huge surpluses and different costs. You would need large areas of the map (not this tiny box), and for example different fertility soils and high concentrations of metal. So if you had two towns, one with tons of food and one with tons of metal, they would trade pies for tools or something like that. For now though mines run out very fast so you cant really have infinite iron (which was the case, or at least lasting for many generations, when looking at old mines). And soils have the same fertility everywhere.

seth · 2019-07-30 19:14:35

It would be interesting if certain methods of production were so expensive you could only obtain them through specialization, but when you had them you could really crank out a lot.. Like a plank making machine that can do the job so much faster than an individual.

To get to economies of scale - at which point the surplus would be available for barter..

NoTruePunk · 2019-07-30 19:22:56

capitalism bad

Nobody's going to want to play a game where someone threatens you with the violence of starvation or imprisonment to make you work for them.

The current state of the game is extremely communist, and that's a good thing.

jasonrohrer · 2019-07-30 21:37:35

NoTruePunk wrote:

Nobody's going to want to play a game where someone threatens you with the violence of starvation or imprisonment to make you work for them.

You mean like every communist regime ever, including the modern ones still operating?

Where all the evil capitalist "regimes" are the only places in the world where anyone has ever been truly free from the black boot of oppression?

Where we literally use "miracle" to describe what happened in places like Taiwan when they broke free from communism, and where we use backwards euphemisms like "The Great Leap Forward" to describe some of the greatest atrocities of the 20th century in China under communism.

The problem with communism is that it depends on FORCING people to cooperate even if they don't want to. And you can't FORCE someone to do something they don't want to do without a violence.

Meanwhile, voluntary exchange is magically... voluntary! If I don't want to eat at McDonalds or work at McDonalds, I just don't.

You might make the argument that all this "freedom" papers over involuntary oppression---a web of voluntary catch-22s.

But before you make that argument, you better count the dead bodies that piled up in during the 20th century.

Four legs good, two legs baaaadddd.

Potjeh · 2019-07-30 21:47:57

You do know that people could choose their profession in most communist countries? The only difference is whether you're working for the state or a corporation, and corporations are just as inherently evil as states, if not even more so. Truth is, no common man is truly free anywhere in the world, and hasn't been since Neolithic. You just can't have civilization without power hierarchy.

And let's not pretend capitalism is without it's death toll, either. For example, 45 000 people die in USA each year due to lack of medical insurance.

Last edited by Potjeh (2019-07-30 21:51:05)

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-07-30 22:42:16

Potjeh wrote:

You do know that people could choose their profession in most communist countries?

Every person I've met from communist Russia or Poland has told me otherwise.

The closest thing to that was a guy i knew named krasimir who went into their army. It was more of a "So what do you know?" And his answer was driving trucks for a farm (which he didn't have a choice in doing once he hit 14) so they stuck him as a tank driver.

This game is ultimately a proving ground.

It borrows ideas from all sides, at different times and various intensities.

Last edited by Grim_Arbiter (2019-07-30 22:44:51)

NoTruePunk · 2019-07-30 22:55:02

jasonrohrer wrote:

NoTruePunk wrote:
Nobody's going to want to play a game where someone threatens you with the violence of starvation or imprisonment to make you work for them.
You mean like every communist regime ever, including the modern ones still operating?
Where all the evil capitalist "regimes" are the only places in the world where anyone has ever been truly free from the black boot of oppression?
Where we literally use "miracle" to describe what happened in places like Taiwan when they broke free from communism, and where we use backwards euphemisms like "The Great Leap Forward" to describe some of the greatest atrocities of the 20th century in China under communism.
The problem with communism is that it depends on FORCING people to cooperate even if they don't want to. And you can't FORCE someone to do something they don't want to do without a violence.
Meanwhile, voluntary exchange is magically... voluntary! If I don't want to eat at McDonalds or work at McDonalds, I just don't.
You might make the argument that all this "freedom" papers over involuntary oppression---a web of voluntary catch-22s.
But before you make that argument, you better count the dead bodies that piled up in during the 20th century.

Four legs good, two legs baaaadddd.

state socialism ≠ communism

individualism ≠ autonomy

cooperation ≠ coercion

Group decision making is the basis of democracy, and it is only one solution on how that's done. You've gone off the deep end with propaganda dude. You can't get through life basing all of your decisions on abstract ideological opinion articles, at some point you're going to have to form actual experiences. Go to a consensus meeting or two and let me know how coerced you feel compared to the fear you feel of being evicted or incarcerated by the state.

Potjeh · 2019-07-30 23:00:42

I think you're talking about mandatory military service, which wasn't really a career but rather something you have to do in most European countries (yes, even the Western ones). In Yugoslavia at least, you could pick which trade school or uni you wanted to go to, as long as your previous school grades and you'd get in if you were in top however many people the school was accepting that year. Then when you finish you'd get a job according to your education. And you weren't physically forced to take a job, it's just that you needed to take one if you wanted to have money for food (same as in capitalism), the main difference being that vast majority of available jobs were in publicly rather than privately owned companies.

Last edited by Potjeh (2019-07-30 23:01:47)

NoTruePunk · 2019-07-30 23:04:36

Potjeh wrote:

You just can't have civilization without power hierarchy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_R … on_of_1936
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebel_Zap … cipalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a … ommunities

Villas · 2019-07-30 23:08:06

You have a point here, but I doesn't agree with scarcity/abundance thing.
I mean, if I produce fency clothing in mass, for instance, I can change them for some iron, even if I have tons of iron. It's never enough, we always need it.
I agree we need to have abundance of an item to trade, most of the time, but the item we will get doesn't necessary be scarce in our town. We always need rope and iron.

Another example is gold, if a town wants gold and my town have four crowns, I would trade the crowns for some iron or may be back packs.

And we don't need to trade with towns, we can trade with people. If a guy from another town wants a set of fency clothing, I would change them for four baskets of rabbits. His town doesn't have technology to produce that, but our town have, so he can bring his bunnies and get an cool set of clothing and I bet his people will be jealous.

But we have some problems. The first is: It's too easy to steal and too hard to guard. Foregeins can go inside, feed sheeps and make clothing and then leave, they can steal the gold or iron.
And when the town is surrounded by fences, it always ends up someone trapping people inside soon or later, since the last update, it happened in all fenced towns I was born.
Auto-giving access to people who was born inside the fence (whose mother had access) would avoid this kind of griefing. It is so frustating being trapped inside a town.
Having a guard never works because having a king/president never works, they either have God Syndrome or are griefers.

Auto-giving access to the same family doesn't work, because families kill each other in the first hours, so only one family thrieves and spread building a couple of towns.

The other problems is that we don't have that many rare and precious stuff to trade, we need more tech stuff, tech clothing, tech tools. Might be a reinforced iron using a tech machine, better bps, med kits, prettier floors....

We need a better way to avoid stealing and more cool items to trade.

Lum · 2019-07-31 07:54:32

If you add numbers, how will they be translated? Realistically, if a foreigner said a number, you wouldn't understand it more than any other word in his language. Or perhaps using numbers would simulate the action of showing fingers on your hand, which is pretty much universal?

miskas · 2019-07-31 09:34:01

Lum here is a number translation if we need one But I would prefer to be universal from 0-10
The point of my proposal was to easy out written communication so it needs less time.

!@# $ %^ &* ( )
12 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

Last edited by miskas (2019-07-31 09:36:02)

seth · 2019-07-31 12:32:57

jasonrohrer wrote:

Meanwhile, voluntary exchange is magically... voluntary! If I don't want to eat at McDonalds or work at McDonalds, I just don't.

Sure, given the same amount of money, you can go to white castle, or checkers, or wendys. This is what choice amounts to for people who are hungry, but only have a few bucks for gas and food in the moment. And while the end result looks like variety and choice, all of these foods hurt people in the long term with consistent use.

So superficially it looks good, but is that really better than living in a society which promotes real choice? Real choice is having the money to choose unhealthy food, or to choose healthy food.

Regarding work, given the same amount of urgency and proximity to jobs, a person could work at Mcdonalds or white castle or checkers or wendys but these are all jobs which have an upper limit that is not all that high. Meanwhile someone like me who was born into a white middleclass community - which contains all the economic benefits of home loans and such that weren't allowed to non-white communities and all the network affects that result out of density of opportunity - I have the time and the resources to make a strategic decision about how to spend my time.

And I have the luxury to apply to different places, and eventually different colleges, and get plugged into another super dense community of opportunity, and have access to computer based jobs..

Sure you can say this is voluntary, but how much choice is there really in that. I didn't choose my upbringing, and the person stuck in the fast food industry didn't choose theirs. I want to live in a society that allows us real choice, not just the choice to choose our exact flavor of addiction.

What this means for One Hour One Life? Not sure.. Maybe nothing! I don't think anyone wants to be in an unfair system of reward..

Yet again, maybe the fair nature of One Hour One Life is the real reason trade isn't quite working yet..

[update]
More thoughts: One Hour One Life is essentially a class-less world. You can begin naked with nothing, and end your life with clothes and possessions, if that's your goal.. What if ascending classes was an inter-generation battle? I started as a pauper, but I positioned my kids to be bakers, and maybe one day their great grand children will be oil barons.

Last edited by seth (2019-07-31 13:13:33)

Ilka · 2019-07-31 13:20:50

As a person from a post-communist country (Poland), I can compare both great systems.

And I will tell you: we are slaves in one and in the other.

Capitalism is only a system that is horribly hypocritical.

Although communism in the first phase is criminal - wherever it happens, it kills about 10% of the population.

So for the admirers of communism - look at this documentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1OZYoxaJ2Y

And for the admirers of capitalism - do you know how many days the poor peasants worked for their master?

About 52 days.

And how much do we work to pay all taxes?

7 months.

Do you feel free?

Just because you do not see your shackles does not mean they do not exist.

And back to the subject I have a strong suspicion about how Jason wants to force us to trade.

I'm guessing that he wants to go back to a crazy concept in which only one family can hunt rabbits, the other can make bowls, etc.

This, of course, completely blow the game to pieces.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The problem with communism is that it depends on FORCING people to cooperate even if they don't want to. And you can't FORCE someone to do something they don't want to do without a violence.

Yes, yes, people do not like to be forced.

When they are forced, they start to escape from the box.

Last edited by Ilka (2019-07-31 13:21:29)

Lava · 2019-07-31 13:43:35

lmao are people actually trying to justify communism wtf

Ilka · 2019-07-31 13:46:51

In the game we have a tribal community, the most perfect system in the history of mankind, not communism.

arkajalka · 2019-07-31 14:00:04

Lava wrote:

lmao are people actually trying to justify communism wtf

You must be MURICAN, to not have a single clue on benefits of communism. You are brainwashed to think that its the purest form of evil not even knowing the whole ideology. Its always demonized by WW2/china and other lousy attempts at it...

Yes its a double edged sword and can be missused easily. Its more like an utopia of what mankind can achieve when they work together and share everything. As an ideology its really something to work towards to. Major problem with it is human greed. So far in every attempt, there has been some kind of leader figure that hoardes everything to himself and executes all who are against him. That really stands against the whole point of the communism and is actually totalitarism/fascism .

If it could be implemented the way its expressed by Marx it would actually benefit the whole world, but as long as we have materialistic selfcentered people, they always gonna ruin it. Main problem with communism is grieffing.

Mao was just super good at grieffing and no one got him to answer for his deeds. All hail the grieff god.

"All your bases are belong to us"-xXPu55yS14y3rXx

Lava · 2019-07-31 14:02:04

arkajalka wrote:

Lava wrote:
lmao are people actually trying to justify communism wtf
You must be MURICAN, to not have a single clue on benefits of communism. You are brainwashed to think that its the purest form of evil not even knowing the whole ideology. Its always demonized by WW2/china and other lousy attempts at it...
Yes its a double edged sword and can be missused easily. Its more like an utopia of what mankind can achieve when they work together and share everything. As an ideology its really something to work towards to. Major problem with it is human greed. So far in every attempt, there has been some kind of leader figure that hoardes everything to himself and executes all who are against him. That really stands against the whole point of the communism and is actually totalitarism/fascism .
If it could be implemented the way its expressed by Marx it would actually benefit the whole world, but as long as we have materialistic selfcentered people, they always gonna ruin it. Main problem with communism is grieffing.
https://miro.medium.com/max/4116/1*KMzw … Epc-w.jpeg
Mao was just super good at grieffing and no one got him to answer for his deeds. All hail the grieff god.
"All your bases are belong to us"-xXPu55yS14y3rXx

Haha he killed millions of people

arkajalka · 2019-07-31 14:09:17

yes a grieffer and totalitarian facist... not a communist.

Ilka · 2019-07-31 16:09:15

arkajalka wrote:

If it could be implemented the way its expressed by Marx it would actually benefit the whole world, but as long as we have materialistic selfcentered people, they always gonna ruin it. Main problem with communism is grieffing.

"The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions must give way (...) They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust."
Quote from Karl Marx.

The socialists already in the nineteenth century predicted that people too "backward" should be annihilated.

You know little about how a criminal ideology was socialism at the ideological level.

However, I understand your point - the idea of introducing one family for all people is great.

Unfortunately, this was only invented to take power and murder opponents.

It's always like that.

Beautiful ideas are invented.

Millions are murdered in their name.

And when everything ends, the same people are still in power.

Or rather, the same evil.

I am starting to fall into a depressive mood, so I finish.

Potjeh · 2019-07-31 16:20:39

Yeah, unlike the noble capitalistic Manifest Destiny or Monroe Doctrine. Native Americans and South Americans really benefited from those.

Ilka · 2019-07-31 16:37:09

I am writing that both systems are devil's worth.

Only worries me that people are taking on all these ideologies, and are fighting for other people's profits, and are killing themselves so that someone who has 95% of the planet's resources has even more.

arkajalka · 2019-07-31 17:24:32

Yes maybe so, but the ones who dictate who gets to go and who stay should be the 99% not the 1%. Can deffo stand behind putting bad people into the donkey town. It just needs to be the majority to make the decision not one person.

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Feedback Regarding Trading

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