There may be something wrong...

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-13 16:55:04

...with the new Eve placement alg.

I walked out of my town today and found empty, unused spring heads relatively close, that no Eve was ever placed at (you can tell they were placed there because of the home marker, unless someone dug it up).

Does anyone have any code that can process the public data lifelog and make a rough map of birth cluster locations?

Dodge · 2019-05-13 16:59:29

This?

wondible wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Not sure what's going on with no seeing foreigners.
I'll see if Chard make another one of his birth cluster animations.
Early on I had one game where I died, eved, ran north into my old town. Then left and found a dead looking town, only have a couple other eves show up. There was no wild food, the land had been ravaged.
But something seems off, looks like lots of eves are still on a spiral.
https://wondible.com/forum-files/springs_spawn.png

Last edited by Dodge (2019-05-13 17:00:49)

Whatever · 2019-05-13 17:05:46

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/303

Wuatduhf · 2019-05-13 17:18:47

It is also worth noting that the latest Bell Tower was constructed at -28470, -30552.

If our coordinates for Eve spawning were reset to 0,0 , then we spread out *real* fast from the center of the map.

As mentioned above, it looks like someone already put up a github issue regarding what broke.

Tarr · 2019-05-13 17:30:13

Pretty sure what is happening is people aren't playing eve faster than the old spring respawns are being used up.

I've myself spawned near the bell town on the server four times already and as such I can pretty much walk from where I've been respawning to the bell town. Putting unused spring spawns back into the spawn pool after just an hour is probably too short as like I've said any time I've played as Eve I've spawned back to a place I've already been around.

Also Eve roman numerals aren't getting reset. I've been the 8th + 9th version of myself today and Eve 1-7 were all Eves from yesterday.

wondible · 2019-05-13 18:43:30

Here is an animated one including the next days data. Looks like the spiral eves come in waves while center is pretty constant.

Last edited by wondible (2019-05-13 18:43:45)

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-13 18:44:47

Whoops, yeah, that is a bug.

The loop above is supposed to go up to r < 10, not 5. So if it finds a free spring in the "outer ring" (the frame of the square between r = 5 and r = 10), then it moves the center of the square for next time.

So, what's happening now is that the square fills up with Eves, and then all those spots get blocked for the next hour, so it defaults to spiraling, then goes back to filling the square again an hour later until it's full, then goes back to spiraling.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-13 19:25:35

Another problem... unfortunately....

When I ran the map-wipe, the wiping script was old, and didn't clear lastEveLocation.txt (which tracks the location of the most-established village for the next start-up).

So, we restarted out at 30K instead of at 0,0

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-13 19:31:19

Okay, I fixed the problem with the eve grid window code.

I tested it pretty extensively, but perhaps someone can give it a look:

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … f30f49af7c

The idea is that we search in a radius 10 window (441 possible spots), and if the spot we find is outside the radius 5 window (central 121 possible spots), then we treat the point that we find as the center of our next search window for next time.

So, the square fills with Eves from the inside out, until it gets to a point where Eves are >= 5 away from the center of the square. Then it starts a new search square there.

So we should see a "leg" of overlapping squares growing out in the -x,-y direction. I don't love the idea of it growing endlessly in some direction, but it has to go somewhere to find unused spring sites, and I don't want the square just getting bigger and bigger over time, because that means that Eves will get farther and farther apart.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-14 05:11:39

Wondible, can you run another one now that the Eve alg has been fixed?

wondible · 2019-05-14 11:44:07

jasonrohrer wrote:

Wondible, can you run another one now that the Eve alg has been fixed?

Seems to be creeping as intended, although no coordinate reset.

And with non-eves

Wuatduhf · 2019-05-14 11:57:59

Wait, how are we still in the -28k and -33k region of the coordinate plane? I thought Jason just reset that back to 0,0 in the hotfix last night?

Dodge · 2019-05-14 14:12:40

Seems good except not being at 0,0.

Hard do tell from data collected over 5 hours but it seems like spawning goes into infinity, there is about 2000 tiles that separates the first and last spawn but that's over 5 hours only, so 24/5 = 4.8 and 4.8 x 2000 = 9600 so if i'm correct in 24 hours there should be about 9600 tiles that separates the first spawn point to the last one.

Depending on which villages survive there could still be more than 1500-2000 tiles that separates each village and that's over 24 hours.

Making the eve spawn go back to the first place to check unused springs in a loop as some issues, mainly that a good part of these springs where left because unviable places to start a village.

Maybe the spawn algorithm could be different than something that goes infinitly in some direction.

But i think one of the main issues is that too many eve's are spawning and most importantly that currently most villages dont die because the players made mistakes (no more ressources, no more food) or some terrible event happened (murder spree, no pads) but because at some point not enough babies are spawning due to players being banned from village and it ends up dying.

Having villages die off "artificially" and not because the players fucked up goes against actions having consequences, they dont have consequences since the line and village will die off no matter what is done.

Doing some changes on ban and number of eve's could solve that issue and make the system not go against lineage and villages but simply be neutral : https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6380

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-14 15:14:12

Thanks, wondible!

Yes, that is working how I'd expect it to work, and yeah, it does tend to "walk" to infinity like that.

And yes, there was a glitch in the coordinate reset. Turns out that the server code is more stubborn here than I thought it was... if it can't find a saved Eve location from the last shutdown (in case of a crash, etc), then it looks in the monument logs (bell tower) for the most-recently-completed bell tower, and uses that for the first 10 Eves.

My "wipe map" script was certainly not clearing the monument log (which is used to show the monuments on the website, after all).

And it's good that the server code is robust in this manner, so I'm not sure what to do here. We'll just have to live with the 30K thing for now. Doesn't really matter, I suppose.

NOW, for the really hard design problem (which some of you have observed):

How to avoid some kind of "walking" Eve spawn. Currently, wild resources become permanently exhausted, so we do need to look for greener pastures at some point.... otherwise, Eve-ing will get harder and harder and harder, and eventually become impossible. And I don't want wild resources to respawn, because obviously, that will undercut the long-term challenge of running a village.

But even though they seem to be quite close together, it's possible to be born on the edge of the bulge. I walked for quite a long time last night without finding any established villages.

And I'm still curious about how many villages are really dying out because of lineage bans. Right now, the ban is 100 tiles. This would, at worst, encourage your last fertile mothers to migrate in order to have a baby, and then come back. That said, I'm not entirely satisfied with lineage bans in general, so I'm still thinking about it.

If I changed it so that 90 minutes could pass without actually living in the game, would that solve the problem? Then you wouldn't see someone who played in the morning for an hour still banned from your village when they came back in the evening to play again.

lychee · 2019-05-14 15:28:29

jasonrohrer wrote:

NOW, for the really hard design problem (which some of you have observed):
How to avoid some kind of "walking" Eve spawn. Currently, wild resources become permanently exhausted, so we do need to look for greener pastures at some point.... otherwise, Eve-ing will get harder and harder and harder, and eventually become impossible. And I don't want wild resources to respawn, because obviously, that will undercut the long-term challenge of running a village.
But even though they seem to be quite close together, it's possible to be born on the edge of the bulge. I walked for quite a long time last night without finding any established villages.

Is it possible to randomize the direction of the "walking" Eve spawn? Knowing me (and others), it's really tempting to advocate for a new meta where walking in a certain direction (e.g. NE) is slightly more likely to be in the direction of "lush" in the spawn occurs on a linear diagonal.

One possibility balancing resources is to have some amount of respawning when there are no players nearby whatsoever. This way, populous villages will continue to have a challenge -- but once a village goes extinct, the location becomes viable again for an Eve.

Maybe this check could be done during spawning time? For instance -- for a valid well site -- check a radius of X many tiles for presence of any players -- and if nobody is around spawn a little milkweed, iron, wild carrots, etc (but not too much since there might be some abandoned settlements).

jasonrohrer wrote:

And I'm still curious about how many villages are really dying out because of lineage bans. Right now, the ban is 100 tiles. This would, at worst, encourage your last fertile mothers to migrate in order to have a baby, and then come back. That said, I'm not entirely satisfied with lineage bans in general, so I'm still thinking about it.
If I changed it so that 90 minutes could pass without actually living in the game, would that solve the problem? Then you wouldn't see someone who played in the morning for an hour still banned from your village when they came back in the evening to play again.

How many unique players do we have in the player base, I wonder?

I think knowing that number is critical to being able to make this kind of calculation.

If we have 10,000 births and 5,000 unique players, that's very different from 10,000 births and 500 unique players.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-14 15:31:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

If I changed it so that 90 minutes could pass without actually living in the game, would that solve the problem? Then you wouldn't see someone who played in the morning for an hour still banned from your village when they came back in the evening to play again.

I think it would help.

As someone who frequently plays only two lives each day, one in the morning and one in the evening, I can't remember the last time I've found myself back in the same village. I think my past lines are dying out before I play long enough to remove the lineage ban.

lychee · 2019-05-14 15:39:24

I've actually personally never played in the same village (ever).

But I also always live until old age too.

Tarr · 2019-05-14 15:49:57

lychee wrote:

I've actually personally never played in the same village (ever).
But I also always live until old age too.

In the current system you either need to play an hour and a half in different lineages (if you aren't dying early and living to old age every life this means you will play three hours for the chance to play a fourth hour in your original village) or you need to wait 24 real hours. The proposed change makes it actually possible to get back to a village and as such casual players aren't locked out of reentering a villages potential player pool.

90 minute real time change is great because even if a troll comes by murdering them will still keep them out for up to three hours. This sort of change encourages people to take a break from the game if they'd rather focus on living in one place instead of grinding it out.

lychee · 2019-05-14 15:56:52

Tarr wrote:

lychee wrote:
I've actually personally never played in the same village (ever).
But I also always live until old age too.
In the current system you either need to play an hour and a half in different lineages (if you aren't dying early and living to old age every life this means you will play three hours for the chance to play a fourth hour in your original village) or you need to wait 24 real hours. The proposed change makes it actually possible to get back to a village and as such casual players aren't locked out of reentering a villages potential player pool.
90 minute real time change is great because even if a troll comes by murdering them will still keep them out for up to three hours. This sort of change encourages people to take a break from the game if they'd rather focus on living in one place instead of grinding it out.

...Maybe that's why I never spawn back.

I don't think I ever play OHOL in more than 3 hour sittings.

Once I've gotten to that point, that's usually the point where I've decided I had enough and need a break.

Dodge · 2019-05-14 16:08:02

jasonrohrer wrote:

If I changed it so that 90 minutes could pass without actually living in the game, would that solve the problem? Then you wouldn't see someone who played in the morning for an hour still banned from your village when they came back in the evening to play again.

Yes, hard to say in advance if that would completely solve the issue but it would definitly make a difference.

Would be interesting to see the numbers on bans, not sure how the spawning works in terms of coding, but i believe it gives a place to spawn first then checks if player is banned from this place, or checks if banned first, but either way it should be possible to get numbers on times spawn are refused because player was banned.

How many times a player was going to spawn somewhere but didnt spawn because he was banned from that place.

Also would be interesting to see the numbers correlated to the last minutes of a civilisation (last lineage members) and if a lot of players got refused to get spawned in that place that could have saved the lineage.

Another interesting one would be the number of births of a lineage over time

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-14 16:17:23

Yes, births per minute for a given family line, over time, would be interesting to see.

There are something like 1100 unique players per day (on a Monday), and 11,000 lives lived per day.

What I worry about with this change is this:

Players who want to keep working on their personal project in the game will be encouraged to "take a break" from the game for 90 minutes and then come back and SIDS back to their project village. This would become a pattern. Why bother playing anywhere else, or getting invested in other places and stories?

This would undercut "saying goodbye for real" somewhat. Having to play in some other place (or wait 24 hours) is enough of a palette cleanser that saying goodbye feels pretty real.

And for those of you living two lives per day, yeah... you really should be living in two different villages, and never ever coming back. That's really what this game is about.

lychee · 2019-05-14 16:41:14

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yes, births per minute for a given family line, over time, would be interesting to see.
There are something like 1100 unique players per day (on a Monday), and 11,000 lives lived per day.

What I worry about with this change is this:
Players who want to keep working on their personal project in the game will be encouraged to "take a break" from the game for 90 minutes and then come back and SIDS back to their project village. This would become a pattern. Why bother playing anywhere else, or getting invested in other places and stories?
This would undercut "saying goodbye for real" somewhat. Having to play in some other place (or wait 24 hours) is enough of a palette cleanser that saying goodbye feels pretty real.

And for those of you living two lives per day, yeah... you really should be living in two different villages, and never ever coming back. That's really what this game is about.

Maybe /SIDS should never lead back to a prior lived village or an eve start, and SIDS should start to cycle back to the first SID village if you've SID'd enough times?

Perhaps the only way to get a chance to spawn back to a prior village is to have lived at least one full lifetime to old age. (which puts an effective ~60 minute ban)

Also had two suggestions regarding lineages that might encourage play for that favors your immediate family/children:

1. The only way to escape Lineage Ban is to reincarnate as your own grandchild (or more)
2. Your children have to "bury" you or build a shrine to you in order to enable to possibility of escaping the Lineage Ban

Suggestion (1) would increase the likelihood that you care a lot more about your own children, and you would be more incentivized to help make sure they survive.

Suggestion (2) would make it such that you don't control your own respawn; you need to have developed an emotional connection with your family to the point that they care enough about you to give you the chance to come back, encouraging emotional connections etc. Also has an obvious cost, in that shovels (or whatever a religious rite is) costs iron or other resources.

I love Twisted's alters and those quirky moments where he asks someone "bury me here!" -- would love to see more of that.

Dodge · 2019-05-14 16:44:02

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yes, births per minute for a given family line, over time, would be interesting to see.
There are something like 1100 unique players per day (on a Monday), and 11,000 lives lived per day.

What I worry about with this change is this:
Players who want to keep working on their personal project in the game will be encouraged to "take a break" from the game for 90 minutes and then come back and SIDS back to their project village. This would become a pattern. Why bother playing anywhere else, or getting invested in other places and stories?
This would undercut "saying goodbye for real" somewhat. Having to play in some other place (or wait 24 hours) is enough of a palette cleanser that saying goodbye feels pretty real.

And for those of you living two lives per day, yeah... you really should be living in two different villages, and never ever coming back. That's really what this game is about.

Maybe the time you have to wait would get exponentially longer the more time you stay in a certain place?

So eventually if you stay too long in one place it would be more and more difficult to get there.

Some way to track behavior and see who is trying to get in a certain place on purpose all the time.

And playing in another village would remove a percent of the waiting time for the other village.

It should be made so a random person has a probability to spawn in the same village but also not allow to go in that village on purpose several times a day.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-05-14 16:45:09)

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-14 17:12:51

Shrine is interesting.

The problem is, it would take a while for people to build it, and then you get born elsewhere in the mean time.

lychee · 2019-05-14 18:10:05

jasonrohrer wrote:

Shrine is interesting.
The problem is, it would take a while for people to build it, and then you get born elsewhere in the mean time.

Yup! I don't think there should be immediate reincarnations back to the same village, so it's fine if it takes a while for people to build it.

The main point of it would be that it introduces the *possibility* that they might come back... even if it's several generations down the line. During spawning time, the algorithm could first select a location (ignoring lineage ban), then check if there's a shrine for the player, and if there isn't the apply the lineage ban.

They must really have to care about you if they want to give you the chance to come back.

It doesn't have to be like an enormous stone altar or anything -- something simple (but costs something) like a marked grave + lapis lazui + bowl (could be anything) -- would take effort to make but not wholly unreasonable. Would be kind of amusing if people could take away the bowl/offering and that completely disables the shrine, so you'd have to watch over your ancestor's graves and shout at anyone who tries to take the offerings.

Last edited by lychee (2019-05-14 18:13:52)

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There may be something wrong...

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