so when do we get craftable zoom ?

breezeknight · 2019-04-22 19:57:50

InSpace wrote:

I used to play the game normally, I would run and before I have time to react get killed by wild animals almost 50% of all my lives. And I would just be running around searching nonstop for the thing I needed, like a rabbit biome, trees whatever.
And I am strongly against mods in almost all aspects when it comes to games, but the zoom out mod feels so mandatory for me to be able to enjoy the game at all.
Without it is a walking around being lost game. The game should at least be able to be zoomed out twice as much as vanilla.

yeah

what do you think my gameplay looks like ?

i am in greater danger to get killed by wild animals
i am running aimlessly because i cannot find a thing outside my narrow view & also because it's too near to find among all the clutter
i also am unable to leave town even into the near surroundings without a home marker made because i will get lost, did get lost enough times already

hardcore gameplay, that's what playing vanilla is

that's what makes this zoom mod so unfair to all vanilla players
even without PvP, it's actually cheating an easy way in a survival multiplayer game
i can fully understand why players use the zoom mod
as i stated, i am at disadvantage for playing vanilla, if that's not unfair, what is ?

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Glassius · 2019-04-23 22:43:46

I am totally against craftable zoom. This would benefit only late game, while zoom is mostly beneficial for early settlements.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Game looks like crap with the zoom mod, so it will never be official.

Game has low resolution and looks like crap on big screens. I know people who use tv hanged over PC desk. I personally cannot stand the aesthetics of default zoom, so I play mostly at 2x zoom. So, this argument is valid only for watching gameplay on mobile devices.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The hardcore players don't get this, but part of the game's widespread appeal is the close-in, personal nature of the whole thing. Being able to see the characters and their interactions.

No. You Jason don't get this, but zoom mods are scalable. Hardcore players are zooming in for conversation and crafting. We are zooming out for gathering resources, finding tools and building. None of those 3 things has anything with close-in experience. In fact, we enjoy the game more, because we can see the city layout, we see beautiful landscapes created by your algorithms. And, this is funny, we are involved in more close-in experiences, not less. I often see far away bubbles, but on zoomed out view it is hard to recognize who is talking about what. So I often stop my work to come close and participate in griefer judgement, help somebody looking for tools (I almost always am rewarded with 'Thank you' or 'Tx'), or just look at beautiful stories being told. All this close-in moments are exclusive to us, zoom users, who can notice them and come to dive into them. Vanilla players don't even know how much beautiful storylines omit them.

jasonrohrer wrote:

And furthermore, this is what makes the game so great for videos.
Note that none of the most popular videos are using the zoom mod. Even Twisted, as into the game as he is, does not use the zoom mod in most of his videos.

You don't give us zoom, because you want videos without them. Yet, youtubers, even on modded versions, are mostly playing zoomed in You don't trust your players enough, but we will continue to proof we will not overuse zoom

Zooming out when playing roleplay is inconvenient, so you would still get good stories with good look even in zoomed vanilla. But, if there are guides, zoomed vanilla would be more beneficial.

jasonrohrer wrote:

In other words, if this game shipped, originally, with a 2x zoom by default (20x14 tiles visible instead of 10x7), I'm pretty sure the game would have made half the money that it made, and that it would be dead by now with no players or community.

You are still loosing the point. I may even agree fixed 2x zoom would harm the game. But scalable zoom, in which everyone chooses what pleases them, for sure would increase playerbase. I can bet you lost many, many players annoyed by rapid deaths caused by animals during traveling or angry about next hunger death just near to food, because they spent last seconds searching in pointless directions. You call it a good drama, I call it disrespect toward players. And people felt disrespected are leaving the game. You don't even know how big is this lost playerbase, because they do not contribute to the community.

Stupid deaths are happening to me sometimes even when I use zoom. But now I can blame only myself, when before I was quitting for entire weeks blaming you for poor design.

jasonrohrer wrote:

But please realize why it should not be rolled into the official game.

No one wants fixed zoom. But give playerbase a little trust. We will zoom in for close-in moments, without doubts.

Last edited by Glassius (2019-04-23 22:49:23)

honikker · 2019-04-23 22:58:01

I don't see how it's so unfair? Playing vanilla vs. playing with a mod is a choice and you've chosen to stick with vanilla. The mods are available to anyone who wants to download them. They're easy to install and it currently isn't against any rules to use them.

pein · 2019-04-23 23:40:36

you can scale your zoom
i still zoom back at end of my life and talk a bit

also when pvp never use higher than 1.5 and i guess the smallest zoom gives you the best reaction times

but for milkweed gathering in wilderness, things that newbies rarely do, scavenging for the camp i often live my life on a higher zoom and only scroll back when i got back into the city

breezeknight · 2019-04-24 00:17:49

honikker wrote:

I don't see how it's so unfair? Playing vanilla vs. playing with a mod is a choice and you've chosen to stick with vanilla. The mods are available to anyone who wants to download them. They're easy to install and it currently isn't against any rules to use them.

unfair is if i am being punished for playing vanilla & players using a zoom mod are being rewarded by easier gameplay while Jason says that his reasons not to include zoom are for esthetical reasons, while players using zoom mod do it for practical reasons
in the end i am being punished by Jason, he betrays his own ideas, players not playing vanilla are being rewarded by easier gameplay, which is allowed by Jason though he doesn't like it
just because he doesn't like it doesn't make him block the usage, thus betraying his idea & betraying vanilla players
that he allows a mod which makes life in OHOL significantly easier is the betrayal of those sticking to Jason's original way to play the game

i have there a deeper going problem,
it's not about that i could or couldn't use the mod,
it's about Jason not supporting players who stick to his vision of the game but inviting all those who play it their way

it's the same pattern with griefers,
there is much greater care for players who grief than players who play constructively
griefers destroy intended gameplay but get rewarded by attention & even an own set of features, curses & Donkey Tonkey
while constructive players are just being taken for granted, there is no blessing system & they don't get any form of reward for playing supportively

that very same pattern is even visible in the lack of care within the gameplay
players don't care much for each other, mothers abandon their babies, brothers kill, aunts grief, players suggest usage of ancestors bones for recipes, family is family tree & roleplay, there is no genuine care for each other within the gameplay, no reward, no feature surrounding care for each other

the same pattern
greater care for players who skew intended gameplay
no reward or care for players who stick to the original concept

that way, my respect for the intended gameplay is lacerated
same as it is lacerated by the players who grief & use a zoom mod
to grief & use a zoom mod is the result of that reduced respect,
i can't play that way, i can play games only if i respect the ideas & the makers
if i am not being rewarded for playing by the book but for playing against, then i don't want to play at all

well, i doubt anybody here understands the problem
i am even hesitant to write things like this, since nobody cares to look closely at what's happening
not even Jason does, which leaves me in even a deeper crisis

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futurebird · 2019-04-24 00:33:54

I get what you are saying. But at the same time I think the rewards for being a positive constructive player are intrinsic. I don't need or want any other support. Part of the fun is making the choice HOW you want to play the game.

But, in order for this to work it can't be too asymmetric. Zoom mod is fine but what about a mod that cheated in items? A mod that gave you a home marker that walked you to the nearest iron vein at some point it's breaking the game and cheating. The same is true of griefers. I don't want to have a game where it's impossible to be bad. But if it starts to feel like the dev and too much of the community aren't on your side that isn't a good feeling.

I've been dabbling with zoom, I've been dabbling with /die both of these things can and DO hurt the gameplay experience of others. But, there isn't anything to set limits on their use or reasons not to use them other than some kind of personal pride in "doing it the right way" whatever that means.

I am really uncomfortable with the possible changes to the curse system, with the constant bragging on this forum about being a social pest and making other people unhappy. I think there have several people who have crossed the line in to breaking the game for others and don't really feel like there is a reasonable response to repeated bad actors.

I don't think "just deal" is a reasonable response to the mostly new players playing without zoom who have people running around them taking things and making them feel unwelcome. It must hurt player retention.

When I was new to the game I remember hunting rabbits and my snares and rabbits kept vanishing, but I wasn't certain if I was looking in the right place. The player who was sniping me with zoom must have felt bad seeing me walk back and forth searching and growing more frustrated because they popped back in out of nowhere and gave me one of my traps back. Is that a good dynamic? I just felt like a moron for not using the mod.

futurebird · 2019-04-24 00:40:23

You know this reminds me a lot of really early minecraft days when mod grinders where invented (notch didn't expect them or plan for them) and there were a lot of debates about if it was "cheating" and notch and the other people he was working with would put in changes to the game meant to nerf the grinders.

(a mob grinder in minecraft is a system using water and walls to make it easy to kill 100s of monsters and get their drops with no personal danger to yourself.)

Grinders were what got me interested in the game. I like finding unexpected paths to a goal. The grinder question persists in that game to that day. So the flip side of this is not shutting down player and mod dev creativity.

Personally I think zoom is refreshing and it's a shame not to find a way to give that experience even in a limited form to more players.

Personally I think griefers can be amusing if you have a fair chance to stop them and frustrate them.

So, I think the watch word is balance.
That and not forgetting that there are a lot of new and less obsessed players who never bother with zoom and it shouldn't feel like they are being picked on and sniped by people using cheaty tools.

breezeknight · 2019-04-24 01:08:23

futurebird wrote:

I get what you are saying. But at the same time I think the rewards for being a positive constructive player are intrinsic. I don't need or want any other support. Part of the fun is making the choice HOW you want to play the game.

if there was reward for playing constructively you still would do it

it's the dilemma IRL too, do it because it's right, don't do it because you get rewared

but if you do it right & you don't get rewarded while people who do it wrong get rewarded, even for harmful things, then the society is going down the drain
that's why living in war zones is as depressing as people choose to become suicide bombers because to die for becomes more worth than to live for no future, living in corrupt states is making people poor & leave, living in high violence states is thwarting development

futurebird wrote:

When I was new to the game I remember hunting rabbits and my snares and rabbits kept vanishing, but I wasn't certain if I was looking in the right place. The player who was sniping me with zoom must have felt bad seeing me walk back and forth searching and growing more frustrated because they popped back in out of nowhere and gave me one of my traps back. Is that a good dynamic? I just felt like a moron for not using the mod.

yes, i feel indeed like an idiot because i play vanilla & that's the problem

a vanilla player shouldn't feel that way at all

i felt & still feel the same way about playing constructively
playing griefer is just more rewarding, add to that all the attention they constantly get ...
& this right here feels like living in a corrupt state

mods should be modifications, which are cosmetic
but a zoom mod is improving the gameplay significantly & that's skewing the gameplay in the wrong direction, into cheating

zoom mod users are taking directly gameplay away from me, i did encounter it already
i discovered once in my short sighted vanilla way an iron vein, did get back to settlement, told another player only to get the answer that they know it already, although they didn't leave settlement at all, they just looked around with their zoom
so why should i strain myself for others, if my efforts as vanilla player are less worth than if using zoom mod ?
this situation is thwarting my gameplay
& yes, there's no serious griefer without zoom mod

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Last edited by breezeknight (2019-04-24 01:11:42)

breezeknight · 2019-04-24 01:27:38

Glassius wrote:

Hardcore players are zooming in for conversation and crafting. We are zooming out for gathering resources, finding tools and building. None of those 3 things has anything with close-in experience. In fact, we enjoy the game more, because we can see the city layout, we see beautiful landscapes created by your algorithms. And, this is funny, we are involved in more close-in experiences, not less. I often see far away bubbles, but on zoomed out view it is hard to recognize who is talking about what. So I often stop my work to come close and participate in griefer judgement, help somebody looking for tools (I almost always am rewarded with 'Thank you' or 'Tx'), or just look at beautiful stories being told. All this close-in moments are exclusive to us, zoom users, who can notice them and come to dive into them. Vanilla players don't even know how much beautiful storylines omit them.

you think i don't know

you don't understand that what you describe is the problem

the game plays practically better with the zoom mod & every vanilla player is at disadvantage

i probably would immediately stop playing, if i would see myself acting in a gameplay of a zoom mod user
because a zoom mod user is in direct advantage to me

it makes me literally sick for being punished playing vanilla

& if Jason doesn't correct this situation, then it will have grave consequences to the balance of the gameplay & the motivation of players
the more map & area related updates come, the more drastic the discrepancy gets between playing vanilla & zoom mod user
in the end, Jason will develop a game for vanilla players but there won't be any left, because those playing will undo all his efforts by using mods to circumvent & ease the difficulties
yeah, talk about self sabotage with this

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Last edited by breezeknight (2019-04-24 01:29:37)

futurebird · 2019-04-24 02:52:01

I don't think it's that dire breeze at worst the game isn't retaining as many players as it could because the asymmetry can make for bad new player experiences. And that's bad. I also think it'd be bad if you quit over this which is why I think it's worth talking about. But it's not the end of the game or anything.

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#26 2019-04-22 19:57:50

Re: so when do we get craftable zoom ?

#27 2019-04-23 22:43:46

Re: so when do we get craftable zoom ?

#28 2019-04-23 22:58:01

Re: so when do we get craftable zoom ?

#29 2019-04-23 23:40:36

Re: so when do we get craftable zoom ?

#30 2019-04-24 00:17:49

Re: so when do we get craftable zoom ?

#31 2019-04-24 00:33:54

Re: so when do we get craftable zoom ?

#32 2019-04-24 00:40:23

Re: so when do we get craftable zoom ?

#33 2019-04-24 01:08:23

Re: so when do we get craftable zoom ?

#34 2019-04-24 01:27:38

Re: so when do we get craftable zoom ?

#35 2019-04-24 02:52:01

Re: so when do we get craftable zoom ?

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