How the New Clothes are NOT an Improvement to Clothing

Spoonwood · 2019-04-19 17:11:58

The new clothes do not decay. That's nice. However, the wooden shoes are not as warm as rabbit fur shoes, as nice as extra storage space is, a loin cloth is warmer than the trousers, a rabbit fur coat is warmer than the black long dress, a rabbit fur hat is warmer than the bowler hat. Other warmer clothes exist than some of those, but the supplies would end up further and further out over time. If someone hunts rabbits and someone else composts, that's both rabbits for food and mutton which comes as more yum for the family. Just mutton consists of less yum. Thus a family emphasizing the new clothes is less likely to survive due to the fertility mechanics with respect to temperature and yum than a family with good rabbit hunters. Only the cloak comes an improvement to clothing, and it's only 2% better than a backpack, which people insist on even when they don't need it. Jason may not have everyone to jump at the prospect of making the new clothes... I don't know how he thinks with respect to other players. But that has happened, and it's a mistake given that you care about your lineage surviving.

voy178 · 2019-04-19 17:22:23

It's a luxury item. What do you want?

DestinyCall · 2019-04-19 17:29:15

I like wearing all black clothes with top hat and cape. I feel like a cartoon villian. Makes me giggle.

I'm glad that rabbit gear provides better insulation. It should be warm and utilitarian. If I am geared out in a sealcoat, wolfhat and rabbit fur, you know I'm a proper mountain man. If I'm wearing a flowing red dress, wooden shoes, and a matching red bowler hat, I am clearly on the way to my third wedding.

Matbat · 2019-04-19 17:30:39

All I hear is nitpicking looking for attention.
Wooden shoes don't need thread.
New clothes add a level of individualism for a little sacrifice of heat.
No-one is forcing you to solely eat mutton pies
Since you're the better player here you can carry the lineages by yumming up and keeping heat, problem solved (unless male, then just make sure the nursery is yumed and there is a dedicated mother. ).

Twisted · 2019-04-19 17:49:37

The entire point of the new clothing is to look fancy, and fancy they are.

Tarr · 2019-04-19 17:59:50

None of the new clothing options should be better than most the clothing options in game. Sure they cost more but it's a better use of fleece to make
the new stuff (dresses should obviously be avoided but whatever). The chest pieces are tied for third place with rabbit shawl or sweaters, pants/skirts are slightly better than skirts but a bit worse than pants, and the hats are just slightly worse than what straw hats were iirc.

You give up a bit of temperature for the ability to have clothing you can always pass down to the next generation without worry that they'll need to remake the pieces you give them. Whenever he adds decay to these clothing options then is when they should be receiving any sort of insulation buffs and what not.

It was a fun update that allows people to dress the way they want, allowing some sort of customization while adding something to the game for people to push up the tech tree to achieve. All and all I would call it a great update regardless if they're the best in slot or not.

Amon · 2019-04-19 18:16:28

Um... Of course fur is going to be warmer than some dandy shorts or a dress. What did you think?
Besides, optimal insulation is not for city life when there are multiple fires, houses and god food. Reserve the rabbit loins for the expeditioners where it matters most.

I think the tradeof is just perfect.

Jk Howling · 2019-04-19 18:27:55

The way I see it is this: The new clothes are not intended to be upgrades of furs. They're intended to be upgrades of wool clothing. Pretty simple to think about.

Compare them to the apron/sweater, for example. I can spend 6 fleece on an apron that gives me 0 insulation and a pocket, or a sweater alone that gives me 24.5% insulation and no pocket.

Orrrr... I could spend 12 fleece [plus a a couple thread, which is negligent at that point] and get a shirt+trousers that give a combined 38.4% insulation and a pocket.

They're not meant to be better than rabbit furs. They're meant to give us options between pure warmth+decay, or non-decay+utility but slightly less warmth. You can choose between going all out for insulation alone, or going for slightly less + utility. Or you can choose between using a tool that's rarely used up for early shoes, or using 4 pieces of a constantly-needed resource for them instead.

The only things that aren't really considerable are sandals and the new hats. Sandals are downgrades from the snakeskin boots, and the new hats give no advantage over wool ones. They do look really cool though.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-19 20:53:28

Tarr wrote:

None of the new clothing options should be better than most the clothing options in game. Sure they cost more but it's a better use of fleece to make
the new stuff (dresses should obviously be avoided but whatever).

Right... so you don't care about how even the temperature mechanics work with respect to fertility all of a sudden. Your building experiments, I guess, were not about women's fertility. I guess I shouldn't find that surprising as you have repeatedly tried to advise people to limit yum so that it is always as efficient as possible, because of your prized efficiency with respect to resources, instead of thinking of effectiveness with respect to getting children or supporting moms in your family getting children. You either can't play the game of trying to get your family to maximize it's fertility or you don't want to play that game. Admittedly, even when I played on the bigserver a few times the past weekend, I wasn't playing that way.

With respect to maximizing fertility chances of the people around, when you have the rabbit clothing around, the fleece is wasted on the new clothes. The new clothes look better than other clothes (especially if dyed, which is useless with respect to fertility). So newer players come as more likely to wear them than anything else, or players like DestinyCall who cares about fashion more than function come as likely to wear them.

Tarr wrote:

You give up a bit of temperature for the ability to have clothing you can always pass down to the next generation without worry that they'll need to remake the pieces you give them. Whenever he adds decay to these clothing options then is when they should be receiving any sort of insulation buffs and what not.

If there's no reason to worry, then there's no reason to teach or help out newer players. The new clothes encourage laziness with respect to fertility for future generations. They look too good and visually can be or are quite attractive. And people like Destiny who like fashion, nothing against doing that so long as they realize what they are doing, probably won't wear something more practical. It's like the guy all running around camp with a turkey hat, past the oven, instead of leaving the turkey by the oven or preparing food for the oven, cooking that food up and cooking up the turkey last, so that people have another source of yum to eat.

Tarr wrote:

It was a fun update that allows people to dress the way they want, allowing some sort of customization while adding something to the game for people to push up the tech tree to achieve. All and all I would call it a great update regardless if they're the best in slot or not.

Since Jason has made it clear that he wants people to care about lineage length as good as it looks on the surface, the high society update is another in a long series of mistakes with respect to game design. Those mistakes include the black gold (or oil) update, the radio updates, the car update, the plane update, and now the high society update. Edit: The recent food update was an improvement with respect to game design, though there exist problems which still exist like not being able to eat an onion by itself. You do have a good point. Did the high society update make the game more appealing? Yes. Does it encourage people to care about their lineage surviving more? No. It more encourages people to care about their lineage length less, because it just looks too good and trousers have utility for storing things.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-04-19 21:09:50)

Spoonwood · 2019-04-19 20:57:56

Amon wrote:

Um... Of course fur is going to be warmer than some dandy shorts or a dress. What did you think?
Besides, optimal insulation is not for city life when there are multiple fires, houses and god food. Reserve the rabbit loins for the expeditioners where it matters most.
I think the tradeof is just perfect.

The men should be doing the expeditions or women past their fertility period. Clothing can be counter-productive in the wild if you try to grab a banana off of the edge of a jungle which looks safe (I got bite ONE tile into the jungle once near a tutorial area trying to eat a banana). So, no, the women need the loin clothes more than anything else.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-19 21:00:13

Amon wrote:

Um... Of course fur is going to be warmer than some dandy shorts or a dress. What did you think?
Besides, optimal insulation is not for city life when there are multiple fires, houses and god food. Reserve the rabbit loins for the expeditioners where it matters most.
I think the tradeof is just perfect.

The more insulating the clothing set, the longer you will maintain the temperature gains that you get from fire. Hence fertile women around town can use the more insulating clothing set to enhance their spot in the fertility line for a longer period of time than women with the less insulating clothing set.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-19 21:59:26

Five out of ten scientists agree that if you put a top hat on a baby, she will not /die.

Please, folks, only you can prevent SIDS. Top hats for Tots. It saves lineages.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-04-19 23:53:38

You know my thoughts on this spoon. You're gonna wear one of my yellow hats one day, whether you like it or not

sigmen4020 · 2019-04-20 00:31:00

Spoon I’ve seen you mention in multiple threads that there’s no point playing for anything but fertility (yum and now complaints about with suboptimal heat values). But let me ask you this: what is the point of playing of heightened fertility, when the majority of those gained children will just SID anyway? And why is so bad that people enjoy some clothes that are more aesthetically pleasing? Before that update everyone was pretty much wearing the same outfit, so I for one enjoy the variety in clothing options.

Bob 101 · 2019-04-20 00:54:07

Spoonwood is never fucking happy with anything.

futurebird · 2019-04-20 03:15:09

The new clothes are fine. The only issue is the dress looks kinda funky. Clothing that lasts longer but isn't as warm is the "balance" everyone clamors for. You have to make a choice. People will choose clothing based on how much time they spend near fires and in warm places or places with lots of food. If you are going in to the wild you put on fur. It makes SENSE. That's good.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-20 03:40:23

The dress is unbalanced. It does look bad.

I think the responses in this thread reveals that perhaps the majority of the playerbase doesn't really care about preserving the lineage. Sudden infant deaths do not prevent you from having a child immediately after that, but may sufficiently frustrate a proportion of the playerbase to not care about the lineage (personally I hate cleaning up bone clutter). If Jason wants people to wear the warmest clothes, I think he would do best to make the warmest clothes the most fashionable.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-20 03:47:56

I get plenty of babies while wearing a red dress. Maybe you are doing it wrong, Spoon.

Tarr · 2019-04-20 03:49:38

Spoonwood wrote:

The dress is unbalanced. It does look bad.
I think the responses in this thread reveals that perhaps the majority of the playerbase doesn't really care about preserving the lineage.

Obviously. Why would you care about some lineage you play in once or twice at best? Players care about the place they play in much more than they care about some random surname slapped on the back of their name in a life. In any sort of big town you'll generally play there a few lives spread over some period of time with a different last name almost each and every time.

Names are temporary, towns at least last longer than a silly family.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-20 04:17:23

Tarr wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
The dress is unbalanced. It does look bad.
I think the responses in this thread reveals that perhaps the majority of the playerbase doesn't really care about preserving the lineage.
Obviously. Why would you care about some lineage you play in once or twice at best? Players care about the place they play in much more than they care about some random surname slapped on the back of their name in a life. In any sort of big town you'll generally play there a few lives spread over some period of time with a different last name almost each and every time.
Names are temporary, towns at least last longer than a silly family.

So Jason would need to end the lineage ban then for people to care about their family.

pein · 2019-04-20 07:57:47

im all for storage so the pants with apron are my new favorite
i even do one extra compost just to justify my food wasting

yumming half of your life: high chance of kids, low chance of them to stay
making pants: high chance the kids stay

Spoonwood · 2019-04-20 14:08:05

Pein's comment makes me wonder if the rate of sudden infant deaths is higher for generations 1-3 than for later generations.

I do rather like the trousers. I liked the apron a lot before the temperature overhaul. Maybe I'll just eat more sometimes.

Carrot-Seedling · 2019-04-20 15:17:03

I like the new clothes. Anything with extra storage is good, and there's finally more choice in the pants slot.
Some ideas for fixes/rebalances/whatever:
-The dress looks like you have boobs if you wear it, even if you're a man or baby. That's not right.
-The felt hats make wool hats obsolete. I haven't seen one wool hat since the update.
-The cloak+dress should give more insulation. Currently it's much better to make the dress into a shirt and skirt insulation-wise.

Anandamide · 2019-04-20 16:07:28

Sometimes things that are expensive are worse - Freckle 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbhcRKsRwFM

Spoonwood · 2019-04-20 17:24:24

Carrot-Seedling wrote:

-The felt hats make wool hats obsolete. I haven't seen one wool hat since the update.

Not quite. Santa hats have 18.75% insulation while both felt hats have 15% insulation. Santa hats do NOT decay also. So a santa hat is better than a wool hat, and you need to make a wool hat to get a santa hat. So wool hats aren't obsolete. It will take more time to make a santa hat than a felt hat though. It should, since it's warmer, I think, but I don't know if it should take as much time as it does right now. But that's a balance issue and Jason has other priorities with respect to the game than balance issues.

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How the New Clothes are NOT an Improvement to Clothing

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