Why there are no wars

Twisted · 2019-04-02 16:35:12

One thing that would probably indirectly make people care more about their children are more character models. Currently a lot of people in any given town look exactly the same and it's impossible to distinguish between your children and a random family member at a glance without mousing over them and reading the text. It might seem like a small thing, but I bet if whenever you saw a person you instantly knew they were your descendant we'd have more familiar interaction.

Currently we have four skin tones in the game - A, C, D, and F. Skin tones C and D have six distinct characters per set (three males and three females), while A & F have only three (two female and one male). As the A & F sets are not 'complete' (there's less than four characters in the set) they can not have babies in their own skin tone, which means they can only appear as random tiny chance from their respective adjacent skin tones.

This in turn means that any given early town is either a C town, or a D town. Sometimes they'll get babies from an adjacent skin tone (10% chance if I recall correctly), but basically what ends up happening is that in any given town you have two or three people that look exactly the same as you despite not being closely related.

I think new character models should be added more often (once a month?), and the A & F sets need an extra character ASAP so they can be a 'full' set.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-02 16:56:19

jasonrohrer wrote:

futurebird wrote:
Also not everyone is klanish even in real life. I don't think "feed my kid or some other" *is* and obvious question at all.
Future.... do you have kids of your own?
I can recognize mine by smell alone, and each of my three kids smells different. And gosh, I must admit that other people's children smell awful to me...
Fortunately, I've only experienced one of my children almost getting killed one time in my life, but it's something that I will never forget. I'm reminded of The House of Sand and Fog and Ben Kingsly.... "I want only my son. I want only my son."
https://youtu.be/9sS-JmL40QQ?t=32

If I was able to be as emotionally invested in my children in this game as in the real world, the idea of bringing war into this game would be even more abhorrent to me. War is death. Death is horrible. Losing a child is horrible. I wouldn't be able to handle that kind of heartbreak. Not from a game. Not from something that I am "playing" by choice. I wouldn't WANT to care so deeply for my virtual children that their lose would hurt me like losing a real child. I would never willingly experience that.

That being said, I am open to a game that encourages forming close bonds with other people. Establishing family units and building up personal relationships that last beyond a single hour. When I first started playing OHOL, I tried to play this game like that. I loved every one of my babies and I absolutely DID chase after the ones that ran away from me. I felt horrible when I couldn't keep them alive due to my own inexperience and I strove to be better at the game so I could become a better mother. But over time, I realized that my idea of the game and the reality of OHOL were two different things. I learned to harden my heart and let the runner babies run away. I spent less time doting on each of my individual babies and more time focused on building up the village infrastructure. Because my children weren't really my legacy. They might be good or bad, experienced or inexperienced, griefer or role-player, Aurora or pien. I had no real control over whether or not they would be good villagers or not. The only thing I really have control over is my own actions and my own time within the village - and one hour isn't a lot of time. There is always so much to be done and hardly any spare time to stand around and educate the babies or listen to my elders. Over time, I have become significantly less attached to the individual villagers and much more attached to the village itself, because the people are constantly cycling in and out. The village is the only real constant - the only thing that I can hope to build and make a lasting impact upon through my efforts. And even it will die in a few days or a week.

The village is the closest thing to a true child in this game. It starts out small and defenseless. You must feed it, nurture it, protect it so it can grow bigger and stronger. You must give it your love and your kindness and your attention so it grows up strong. If you notice that it has been neglected, you must tend to its needs and ensure that it is being properly managed. In your first post, you talked about souls and chromosomes. In a way, I think we are already like cells in a body. All of us just individual helper cells, working to keep the body alive and fight off infections.

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-04-02 17:28:02

This is my quick summary of the thread so far. Hope other folks find it helpful, too.

Potential short-term solutions to the problems of trade and war include:
* Make people more unique by adding more character models
* Make more unique clothing options, so one can more easily recognize family (CHECK)
* Further reduce spawning distance to make closer towns possible

More code-intensive suggestions:
* Create "bumper" biomes that have an abundance of a specific resource
* Add mechanisms to allow players to sidestep area bans
- like family creating a special tomb or grave for the bones of your character.
- or a need for descendants to exist in order for you to return
* Add "wonders" that can only exist one place on a given server.
- Assumes adding another location indicator
- Provides some benefit to people of the town
*Create more diversity in locations where civilizations can thrive, by making more biomes viable for Eve camps

Biggest Lift:
* Completely rework spawning location and duration to encourage more depth to family relationship

Other key issues raised:
* Many current players are not interested in another war game and would stop playing if war became common.
-- These same players are interested in commerce and cooperation between more diverse towns.
-- For what it's worth I agree with this point of view.

* There is a war developing between specific players rather than between characters or family groups.
-- See Ominous Blade Blank's post in this thread
-- See Tarr's thread on testing twins and groups by Discord participation
-- See Toxic's thread about creating a griefer discord server https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5804

zed · 2019-04-02 18:05:06

jasonrohrer wrote:

What if, instead of being a soul, the player was a chromosome?

Nice idea. But I don't see how to make it work while keeping fatherhood out of
the game. Let's say a player is only able to be born into babies of mothers
who carry a certain mutation specific to that player. If we assume each
conception involves an invisible father who is assumed not to carry the
mutation, then the mutation will die off unless the population doubles at each
generation (which it won't for long). Alternatively, we could assume
self-fertilisation. But then you get a very incestuous situation, with
consequences far from what we're used to; if your mother carries one copy of
the mutation, then the expected number of mutations carried by your sisters
and *any* of their descendents is also one.

With fatherhood, it would work perfectly: assuming no monogamy and no incest, and
that you get the mutation, you would value a relation as 2^{-d} where d is
their distance from you in the family tree, just like in real life. Incest
would be naturally discouraged, because you want a variety of mutations in
your progeny, because having a wider player-base able to be born into their
children will make them more fertile.

I don't know how to get fatherhood into the game in a non-problematic way.

So the conclusion seems to be: no war without sex?

Last edited by zed (2019-04-03 17:34:33)

futurebird · 2019-04-02 18:11:16

Twisted wrote:

Currently we have four skin tones in the game - A, C, D, and F. Skin tones C and D have six distinct characters per set (three males and three females), while A & F have only three (two female and one male). As the A & F sets are not 'complete' (there's less than four characters in the set) they can not have babies in their own skin tone, which means they can only appear as random tiny chance from their respective adjacent skin tones.

Agree! I also think there needs to be one more skin tone between C and D, the difference is just kind of extreme and it would improve symmetry.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-02 18:24:44

Before you all keep freaking out about me turning this into a war-focused game, you don't need to worry about that. I'm not trying to remake Rust.

However, I do think that conflict is an important part of the emotional palette. I also feel like the lack of meaningful conflict is a sign of a lack of meaning generally. Because meaning itself can generate conflict. If you care enough to fight for it, you really really care. If you would just as soon walk away as fight, you don't really care. "Turn the other cheek" is very possible if someone picks a berry from the bush in front of your house and eats it. It is almost impossible when someone grabs your child from your font yard and drives off with it. The berry doesn't really matter, so it's not worth fighting over. The kid really matters. Most people would fight for it, or even kill for it, if necessary.

So, while I don't want to make a game that's full of war, I also don't want to make a game where a war never ever happens. I also don't want to make some kind of economic sim where trade is the main event, but I don't want to make a game where trade never happens.

I'm reminded of the one Tarantino interview where he actually talks about violence in his movies (he usually storms out and refuses to talk about it at all):

https://youtu.be/Rkd3RBfPTQI

"You really had an experience that night. You went to the MOVIES."

While I hear you, Twisted and others, that the game already gives you more meaningful experiences than you've had in almost any other game, and I'm extremely proud of the game as it stands.... I still want to make it even better. I want the experiences and stories to be even more varied and more meaningful.

At the end of a life, I want you to think, "Holy crap, now that's a GAME."

War is a metaphor---a stand-in for any kind of meaningful conflict. But what about even meaningful theft?

All we have right now is griefing, because there's never any reason for crime, except for boredom.

What about this story:

You're among the last remaining survivors in a crumbling village, with food supplies running out. Your last iron hoe just broke, and you never managed to find oil, so your wells are almost dry. You've approached the gates of a glorious walled city a few miles away, hoping that they will take you in, but they took one look at you and refused. Miraculously, on your 39th birthday, you give birth to a girl. She's the last surviving girl in your village. You sacrifice the last of your food to help her grow up, and other elders in the village die to ensure that she gets enough food.
You've thought about sneaking your daughter into the walled city, hoping that she will be able to blend into the culture there and live on, but you realize that this plan is futile. She'd be noticed right away and exiled, if not killed outright.
The walled city clearly has oil. They even have a few cars, which you've seen driving in and out of the gate from time to time. You think about sneaking in to steal the supplies that you need, but you realize that whatever you could carry out would just be a temporary stop-gap, and a lifetime of such furtive missions is no way to live. If only your precious daughter could seek her fortunes elsewhere, but how? There is sand and snow in every direction, and wild food sources stripped bare as far as you've been able to explore on foot. She'd never make it.
But you're pretty sure that you could sneak into the walled city at least once. You could cover yourself in furs, and make use of the general confusion that occurs each time the gate is opened. Supplies won't help much, but what about equipment? What about one of those cars? If you could get one of those out of the walled city without anyone noticing, you could load it up with fuel and supplies, and then stick your daughter in it. She might actually have a chance at escape. Escape to survival. Maybe in a greener pasture, where she could start fresh, or maybe in another far-away town, where the people are more accepting of outsiders.
As you consider this plan careful, you and your daughter hear the sound of a distant bell. It's too far to reach on foot, but someone in a car might be able to do it. In your final moments of desperation, you take it as a sign.

That is certainly not my game, currently.

But it will be my game someday.

And there's no reason why a story like that can't fit into an hour. Or why the transience of life itself would interfere with it (such a story would only occur in real life because of the transience of life itself). You just have to care, a whole awful lot, about that daughter and her future.

It's my job as a designer to make you care.

Whatever · 2019-04-02 18:32:25

jasonrohrer wrote:

You've thought about sneaking your daughter into the walled city, hoping that she will be able to blend into the culture there and live on, but you realize that this plan is futile. She'd be noticed right away and exiled, if not killed outright..

Why will the girl be killed if she goes into the city? Fertile woman are welcome in each village. Many villages die out because there are no more fertile women.

Lineage ban also encourages you to take in other woman so you may be reborn to them and can keep living in your town.

Last edited by Whatever (2019-04-02 18:36:11)

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-02 18:36:25

Whatever wrote:

Why will the girl be killed if she goes into the city? Fertile woman are welcome in each village. Many villages die out because there are no more fertile women.

In the game as it currently stands, of course.

I'm not talking about the game as it currently stands.

Throughout this thread, I'm talking about the game as it could be someday.

Whatever · 2019-04-02 18:39:51

About stealing from other towns and war:

Right now if you make war with another village or steal from them, you will lower the chances that your village survive. And even worse you will lower the chances that the other village survives. The chances that you will be reborn into the other village are much higher than the chances you will be reborn into your village. If you get reborn into the other village you can go back to your village and keep working there.

ryanb · 2019-04-02 18:40:27

Twisted wrote:

Murdered people should not be able to avoid the area ban though.

If a griefer murders a good guy it would be nice to bring them back by giving them a proper burial. If you see a griefer murdered you can hide the bones so no one buries them.

Also +1 on showing the name when mousing over a tombstone.

happynova · 2019-04-02 18:40:32

jasonrohrer wrote:

Whatever wrote:
Why will the girl be killed if she goes into the city? Fertile woman are welcome in each village. Many villages die out because there are no more fertile women.
In the game as it currently stands, of course.
I'm not talking about the game as it currently stands.
Throughout this thread, I'm talking about the game as it could be someday.

This is fair enough, and I look forward to whatever cool stuff you come up with.

But I would submit to you that the fact that the fundamental unit that people are most truly invested in is their town, not their family... That's not necessarily a horrible problem to be fixed! That's good raw material for you to work with.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-02 19:00:14

jasonrohrer wrote:

So, while I don't want to make a game that's full of war, I also don't want to make a game where a war never ever happens. I also don't want to make some kind of economic sim where trade is the main event, but I don't want to make a game where trade never happens.

Then people need to have the time to build roads between towns. They don't, because getting enough flat rocks in 60 minutes, let alone beating down the stakes and throwing the flatties onto the stakes, isn't feasible for one person, and would require a coordinated team to do so in a lifetime. People would need to have the ability to get reborn/Eve chain in the same spot for this to come as conceivable.

jasonrohrer wrote:

While I hear you, Twisted and others, that the game already gives you more meaningful experiences than you've had in almost any other game, and I'm extremely proud of the game as it stands.... I still want to make it even better. I want the experiences and stories to be even more varied and more meaningful.

I don't think you quite understand what got said by Twisted, DestinyCall, BlueDiamondAvatar, myself, and I think some others. Or you don't care what got said. We would NOT like the game if it had substantial warring aspects to it. You would NOT make the game better by substantially adding wars to it. Not in the eyes of people who have bought and played the game more than you have (in terms of the number of combined hours). In other words, the game has meaning to them now. With substantial warring in it, the game would NOT have meaning. As another example, there is a Twitch streamer by the name of KuroMegumi. She said in the discord that she was considering NOT playing, because of the murderous griefing that players reported happening this weekend.

jasonrohrer wrote:

What about this story:
You're among the last remaining survivors in a crumbling village, with food supplies running out. Your last iron hoe just broke, and you never managed to find oil, so your wells are almost dry. You've approached the gates of a glorious walled city a few miles away, hoping that they will take you in, but they took one look at you and refused. Miraculously, on your 39th birthday, you give birth to a girl. She's the last surviving girl in your village. You sacrifice the last of your food to help her grow up, and other elders in the village die to ensure that she gets enough food.
You've thought about sneaking your daughter into the walled city, hoping that she will be able to blend into the culture there and live on, but you realize that this plan is futile. She'd be noticed right away and exiled, if not killed outright.
The walled city clearly has oil. They even have a few cars, which you've seen driving in and out of the gate from time to time. You think about sneaking in to steal the supplies that you need, but you realize that whatever you could carry out would just be a temporary stop-gap, and a lifetime of such furtive missions is no way to live. If only your precious daughter could seek her fortunes elsewhere, but how? There is sand and snow in every direction, and wild food sources stripped bare as far as you've been able to explore on foot. She'd never make it.
But you're pretty sure that you could sneak into the walled city at least once. You could cover yourself in furs, and make use of the general confusion that occurs each time the gate is opened. Supplies won't help much, but what about equipment? What about one of those cars? If you could get one of those out of the walled city without anyone noticing, you could load it up with fuel and supplies, and then stick your daughter in it. She might actually have a chance at escape. Escape to survival. Maybe in a greener pasture, where she could start fresh, or maybe in another far-away town, where the people are more accepting of outsiders.
As you consider this plan careful, you and your daughter hear the sound of a distant bell. It's too far to reach on foot, but someone in a car might be able to do it. In your final moments of desperation, you take it as a sign.
That is certainly not my game, currently.
But it will be my game someday.

1. The village was not smart enough to keep milkweed around to have the ability to make a stone hoe, or have the wherewithal to go out and find a wild sapling for a skewer to till the soil.

2. Oil? A newcomen charcoal pump has infinite water that comes as fast enough, so oil is not necessary to keep the water supply going.

3. The story doesn't make sense currently. Why did the mom insist on going into the walled city instead of wandering around and starting another village somewhere else? And why didn't she do so on foot?

That will be your game someday? If so, then how in the world did the people who were either Eve or children survive in the first place? I don't think you can have societies developing from scratch while players also *having to* sneak into a walled city in order to survive.

Finally, NO, that would not be your game. That would be the story of some player playing your game. That would not be your story, but rather THEIR story not. And people building or not building walled cities comes as THEIR choice, not yours.

jasonrohrer wrote:

It's my job as a designer to make you care.

No, it is not. And you do not make people care or not care in the first place. You do NOT have control over other people's emotions. It comes as exceedingly conceivable that a person has that sort of play experience, and doesn't care one bit. Seriously man, realize your limitations. You do not make choices for other people. Nor do you control their emotions. People make their own choices in the game. They control their own emotions.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-02 19:02:22

Ryanb, I love the idea of the burial enabling return.

Right now, you should see names when you mouse over a tombstone, but only for people who were alive during your lifetime, and also (I think) only for people who die near you (to prevent relative long-distance coordinate leaking for far-away graves).

The server doesn't currently send you a complete name history of every person who ever lived on the server. When you first connect, it sends you names for the living, and then after that, it sends you additional names for new babies as they are given (You are Jane).

So, you don't know the name of your g-g-g-g-grandfather, who died before you were born.

Nor is the server specially tracking every grave on the map. It lets the clients know when someone dies, and who it was, and in what spot, and then tells the clients whenever a grave moves. So all of the tracking of the name on a grave happens client-side.

Otherwise, there would be an endless build-up of this information on the server, and a need to transmit more and more of it to each client upon connection.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-02 19:10:27

Spoonwood, I said right there that such a story would not occur in my game currently. That's the point of the story. That it would not occur, for a variety of reasons.

You feel whatever you feel in the game because of the way that I designed it. My design either works for you, or it doesn't. There's nothing else to it, other than what I designed.

If you ever felt a tiny bit sad at the end of your life in OHOL, that's because I decided to make life end in OHOL. That's part of the design. The music and the graphics hopefully help with that as well. But the design is the primary thing here, and the true challenge to me as a creator. The graphics and the music are almost like cheating.

And if you have never felt a tiny bit sad at the end of your life in OHOL, then I have failed completely in the way that I designed the game.

Whatever · 2019-04-02 19:15:34

jasonrohrer wrote:

I love the idea of the burial enabling return.

This great to hear, i dident expect that. Many people seem to like this idea, myself included.

jasonrohrer wrote:

You feel whatever ...

Yes ! Feel me !

Jk Howling · 2019-04-02 19:20:31

jasonrohrer wrote:

Ryanb, I love the idea of the burial enabling return.
Right now, you should see names when you mouse over a tombstone, but only for people who were alive during your lifetime, and also (I think) only for people who die near you (to prevent relative long-distance coordinate leaking for far-away graves).
The server doesn't currently send you a complete name history of every person who ever lived on the server. When you first connect, it sends you names for the living, and then after that, it sends you additional names for new babies as they are given (You are Jane).
So, you don't know the name of your g-g-g-g-grandfather, who died before you were born.
Nor is the server specially tracking every grave on the map. It lets the clients know when someone dies, and who it was, and in what spot, and then tells the clients whenever a grave moves. So all of the tracking of the name on a grave happens client-side.
Otherwise, there would be an endless build-up of this information on the server, and a need to transmit more and more of it to each client upon connection.

I really like the idea of burying enabling return as well. It turns a useless, borderline griefing mechanic in the game to one with incentive to do, because it might mean more children for your village, or for previous players to return.

I do think, however, there should be some sort of way to mark a grave with their name, so that following generations know who was buried. Currently, there's a major disconnect between the grave and those who follow.

Why should I care about this grave that I have no idea who was? For all I know it could be some suicide baby that a noob buried!

Here's some spitball ideas:

-a "rest in peace" mechanic. Saying such could cause the nearest grave to become marked, or maybe 'honored' or something, and have the person buried there's name on display until it's either dug up or culled.

-a "Here lies xxx" mechanic, that 'names' the nearest grave, similar to naming kids. Only downside to this is that you could end up naming them something completely different from their actual name, which could be confusing.. And wouldn't allow for Eve graves.

-I feel like eve graves should be special in some regard. They are the forerunners of the lineage, after all. Without their efforts, the village wouldn't exist. Some way for descendants to recognize an eve's grave would be really cool, I think.

Thaulos · 2019-04-02 19:35:48

Really curious to see how you are going to pull that one off Jason.

How about a sort of item ownership?
1) Players could engrave items.
2) Engraved items "belong" owner and can be "legally" used by the owner's family unit.
3) Engraved items can be "ungraved" and made free for all by members of the family unit.
4) Engraved items can be still taken and used by others but the engraving will remain.
5) Items can be inspected for engravings to determine who the items belongs to.
6) Engraved items have a distinct red hue when used by someone who "has no right" to the item.

Family units could be either just lineages or direct descendants from head player. Maybe the head of the family unit could designate who belongs to that unit and who doesn't. Allowing for adoptions, expulsions or people leaving to create their own units.

Small communities with individual private property "rights" did not rely on locks for the majority of human history. People know who owned what and theft was discouraged by simple social norms and the ease with which that theft would be discovered.

This system could allow for people to still use items cooperatively: ie, a smith family could "own" the smith building and items such as smith hammer, the iron and even the resulting products such as shovels, axes or hoes. Workers not from the smith family could still go and work on the smithy as "employees" using the tools the smith owns.

Perhaps people who worked for the smith (who gets paid in pies for example) could eat the smith food in exchange for the work they do.

All this ownership will (I believe) inevitably bring the necessity of some sort of monetary system to allow different families to facilitate the exchange of services between "competing" units.

Turnipseed · 2019-04-02 19:56:01

What if as a crazy experiment you made eves always spawn at 0,0 and they have to venture off from there to make their own town

I can guarantee juicy drama

Last edited by Turnipseed (2019-04-02 20:03:29)

Dodge · 2019-04-02 19:59:21

We care about towns because we build them

Shouldn't we "build" people too to care about them?

Not sure what is your stance on adding stats, perks and abilities to the game, but people could become rare ressources too.

Right now everyone can do everything has long as they know how to, the old woman in village can lift a huge boulder as easily as a man in his prime and the town drunk could build a space rocket, everybody is the same replaceable entity without any unique traits.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-04-02 20:00:03)

ryanb · 2019-04-02 20:20:27

jasonrohrer wrote:

The server doesn't currently send you a complete name history of every person who ever lived on the server. When you first connect, it sends you names for the living, and then after that, it sends you additional names for new babies as they are given (You are Jane).

Can you store the name in the object's metadata similar to reading a note? This way you don't need to send all graves up front to the client.

Last edited by ryanb (2019-04-02 20:23:46)

Amon · 2019-04-02 20:22:40

It is I, Amon and it is NOT the weekend!
And also it is me, not quite sane-at-mind so please excuse my delirious ramble.

And I can definitely without reassurance say that I can easily, definitely say that I can reckognise my best friend by the way they gasp before entering the room... -enamored-

One more thing Jason, while parents unconditionally love their children, the same can't be said for further out relationships. The further apart people are, the less they'll care about eachother, unless a bond is estabilished. The divide starts when siblings grow their own families to invest to. The further apart you grow from your own personal unit, the less you'll care.
In this game too, some of us end up making close bonds with people, related or not. When I was a policeman my co-workers were my bond, there was this nurse/doctor in another life that was my bond and I cared about her more than my own family. when I was a man I had a strong bond with many children for I was their godfather. And they always sided with me nyehehehehe.

But here we go with the family. In the end of the day families split up further down you go, and you just won't care about your 6th cousin twice removed anymore, you'll be more invested in your imediate family and your partners. Really in the end of the day it's your personaly little family that maters, and for which you will root that it continues (I always feel sucessful when MY lineage survives to the 55s and not my sister's hahaha)

Here is some extra info/story from real life, i'm gonna change up some names.

My uncle whom I care about deeply is called Szymon Nowak (and another cousin whom started it all). In our village there is a anotherm an called Tomislav Nowak.
We're maybe related, maybe he's my third cousin once removed, maybe not. But whatever it is, it's only in the name and having a possible same ancestor didn't prevent them to squabble in a blood feud one family againt another with Szymon almost dying when Tomislav attacked him.

I'm not going to care about my X cousin X removed because that's unrealistic, unless we become friends.
We currently have villages consisting of one ancestor, and further down the line if the village is prolific it'll have many families...just with the same name. Having a devotion to the lineage is simply...unrealistic in the real life, or at least it is in the modern world.
People do want multi surname towns though.

The drama and conflict we go through is very good, I really love it, I would enjoy more, I'm personally a sucker for good IC drama. But currently the game is not at the right place to have it, but definitely right to try build towards it!
We need MORE us-vs-them mentality! We need more uniqueness, more personality!
We need more things that differentiate villags, more...things one village has and another village needs. This is solved by trade or war. (However having war be a thing would need to change some things around in regards to wound timers maybe, oh and behind the line battle medics? we can do those easy.)

Some things to consider are this:
-Everyone is pointing out that everyone looks the same. I agree, we need more more more more sprites perhaps more limited ways how your children look like in the end of the day when enough variational sprites end up made? Haircolour variation for thr darker skins too, brown or blonde, they do happen in real life.
-We also need biome specific clothes! Besides sprites, the way to identify is through clothes too.
-Maybe allow for marriages and husbands? Might incentivise people to care more about one another (and a fertility boost to topple it off) You are MY man, why should I care about the men that are NOT mine? Unless they are my friend obv.
---> here we have it, ownership over things likely started through patriarchy I think, when men could identify who their own kid is and thus dedicate their work to solely them. You are MY children, MY wife, MY husband, therefore you, MY grandchild can inherit my clothes and bag and whatnot, the key to the city eh.
-> All the items in here also are not personalised, except for dyed clothes, dyed wool clothes are amazing, we need more, please?. They are basically all the same and you can't identify if said item is truly your's, that's why theft nowdays is easy, OHOL is like nowdays, all the items are the same, but in the olden-days when every item was custom and you instantly knew if your neighbor stole your watering can...ohoho.
-> further customiseable utility items. Give us glass-ware, or porcelain bowls that are paintable. Imagine what drama could arise if the blacksmith saw his plain clay plates in the kitchen when the kitchen is only supposed to use green-glazed plates. OH the drama if you actually knew when somebody could steal your itmes and you had the means to identify it. That's why animals were branded, to identify them. Said customisation should also be native per biome haha.
-> maybe the bloodline ban should only last for a single generation and granted if lived to 60 no mater how long past, after which you get granted priority to be born to one of your -own- decendants if elegible?? (or if you were male, your sister's or your wife's or your adopted child's??)(is this apropriate incentive to give priority to your OWN kin? (and not ..say...your third cousin))

-->Every village needs the same resources to succeede. Said resources are spread out in not too hard to get to biomes. Essentially every village in the end of the day is the same, needs the same resources and consumes the same resources.
-But you still are limited to said resources and every village needs ALL resources. There really is not much incentive for trade early in, unless a village specialises but if it doesen't trade it's done for.

*All resources necessary to jumpstart civilisation should be available in ANY biome. (That is, imo the way to start a fire, sustain it in an inefficient way, a kind of container and a means for food, for which you must work for) Those resouces however should be diversified, it should also be diversified how to build houses, out of what to build houses and how to acquire food.
-Desert villages, tundra villages, jungle villages, savannah villages etc. etc... All with different survival mechanics and ways of life. Yes iglos, wicker pens, sandstone houses, woden shacks, etc.
*Civilisation advancemenet resources should remain in far off biomes. *Better resources should perhaps be... well very rare once upon a moon sort of deal. (Lets say, a quarry spot(wouldn't it be nice to have more roads? Why isn't macadam a thing?), hemp, silk, better quality iron?? other necessary metals.) *Better resources should also say, include resources needed to advance civilisation even further than we can now, as well as provide well needed tech-locked QOL.
-Biome improvements would be necessary for this, as well as more in between biomes maybe? As well along with that, you shouldn't be biome hopping too much to get what you need to kickstart a civ to the point where trading/interconnecting becomes available, perhaps biomes should be far larger overall or consist of multiple sub-biomes with hteir own unique flair.

Sea and seafaring? One thing I know from history is this that civilisations started around rivers, and that in the ancient era of greece and rome, there were two contrasts:
-Living far in the heart of the land meant you were more secure but progressed slower.
-Living by the coastline meant that you progressed far better due trade, but were more likely to be and more easily discovered and hence raided. Rivers were also important traderoutes and roadways.
OHOL villages don't have distinctions. Some outposts however are made...say for oil. But they don't server much more than that.

Rivers would be AWESOME in this game, they could provide a means to water/fertile soil to early towns away from grasslands/swamps, and could be an important factor in technological advancement that could lead...to ...pollution downriver (say another village needs clean water that lives downriver...and now we have a conflict between two villages! or maybe a treaty to no polution or something else...)

-Maybe dog breeds should be changed to reflect this, certain breeds limited to certain biomes, not like how we have it now via wolfess birthing a line of dogs, that births a line of dog before we have consistent births.
Maybe she births two pariah dogs and a wolf, the pariah puppy, which taken home to a certain biome births a litter of puppies adapted to that biome (or two puppeis and one pariah). Those puppies when grown up, however will birth their breed puppies no matter the biome. (OR MAYBE NOT, think trading economics, perhaps its better for the seller if they don't birth designated pups, but it's better for the buyer that they do. option 1 is better only if dogs have a sufficiently long lifespan)
-Also dogs should be actually useful and follow their owner. Wether have herders shove positive benefits to herding animals, say pitbulls follow their owner and growl when a weapon is nearby. Hunting dogs hunt, tracking dogs track humans... This brings some more QOL people might want or trade for, else this is useless.
---> there's probably so much more different ways to build up an US-VS-THEM mentality. it already kinda happens in families on a smalelr scale...just potent it and incentivise them.

Also I am highly feverish and delirious so excuse me if the ramble is a bit messy There's just like... way too many ways to aproach this, and the divesification would even potent the, every life is different aspect.

Last edited by Amon (2019-04-02 20:26:38)

pein · 2019-04-02 21:05:02

regarding the character models:

you could remove the 10% other color (when all sets are complete)
if the eve is white, all family is white, if the eve is black then all family black
if hispanic all family hispanic

the veriety could come from mixing up eyes, mouths and hair styles
you could even use same hairstyles for each skin tone
or have some sort of other colors, no eves should be same looking if they start near each other
and twin eves should choose their eve name, they shouldn't be different families by default

and also if that's not enogh variety cause maybe 9 eves meet, then make everyone else have some ugly filter and your family normal one

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-02 21:05:59

ryanb wrote:

Can you store the name in the object's metadata similar to reading a note? This way you don't need to send all graves up front to the client.

Maybe... but it's a non-trivial change.

The metadata about a note only needs to be checked when the note is picked up (it can't be read on the ground), which means we don't need to check that for every tile when we read a map chunk (lots of tiles) for the player.

For this.... we would at least have to check each tile in a map chunk to see if it's a grave.

It does seem like it would be worth it, in general. Mousing over even the bones in the graveyard of your ancestors would be pretty interesting.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-02 21:22:46

Why fight when composting is cheap AF and gives extra food? Why fight when only iron matters and mines are plenty?

starve us Jason, our state is too steady

Spoonwood · 2019-04-02 21:23:33

jasonrohrer wrote:

You feel whatever you feel in the game because of the way that I designed it.

Nope. I control my own emotions, thank you.

jasonrohrer wrote:

If you ever felt a tiny bit sad at the end of your life in OHOL, that's because I decided to make life end in OHOL. That's part of the design.

No. The design is the computer program. How I react to it depends on me. If I felt sad at the end of one of my "lives", then it's because I chose to think something like "my character has her time coming to an end."

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