Open later: Top cap for yum

pein · 2019-03-09 17:43:22

So i feel kind of responsible for the yum mechanic as i was between the players who suggested a system that rewards variety instead of punishing repetition, as repetition is the way of learning and it would only punish food makers, not the food eaters, they would still eat berries even if they fill 0.000069 pips.

As a side effect we got the yumofiles, who live to eat, instead of eating to live
they wander 600 tiles to eat a burdock, when in a big city, and planting one green beans for themselves.
Its ok that its linked with fertility as it gives a bit of difference and a nice game mechanic, the family shrinks, males get different foods for the only girl, to boost her fertility.
But because of human nature, people meme sometimes to get the highest yum chain, that is unsustainable on a mass scale.

Considering that berry is the baseline, as its still easily maintainable, newbee friendly and needed for the sheep, and mutton pies are the sign of an advanced society, the things in between are just some kind of fillers. Variety is important but not on that level that one of each food is needed or main mechanic of the game. The math supports this, yet people got this weird cities with multiple foods then a huge berry field.

As long as berries are needed for sheep, they wont be out of equation, but i think processed food should always be better.

Now viewing the game as a strategy game, which is the bigger picture, it has a lot of similarities to games like Tropico, Stronghold Crusader, Age of empires, Empire earth, to say some new ones Frostpunk, Oxygen not included, Rimworld.
The main difference is that we don't have AI, we got inviduals.
The food game in those games is different.

Frostpunk: gather food, prepare it to save on raw food, make research to save even more, specialize in one thing.
Oxygen not included: make food from dirt and water, then get seeds to plant better food, make nice eating area, preserve food, higher levels need better foods.
Age: have food in a shared bank and automatically takes it down, each food goes the same place, but different methods giving different values
Tropico: have multiple food types, people ea the closest one, distribution centers, importing and spreading it can increase food happiness, restaurants can give food or people take some home, edicts can allow people to eat more.

When i based my idea, i used stronghold as reference:
There is a granary which must be connected, can be multiple of them, using up some space
You either produce or buy 4 types. Based on map, not all 4 can be viable, meat is rare on a normal campaign, farm space can be limited.
But you can buy ingredients, and make the only processed food: bread. Generally buy meat, and produce apple, cheese in different values.
On top of this, there is food rations which can be lower or higher. On a lower value food gets shared with decreased amount, on higher is shared in abundance. This gives different bonuses, from nothing (minus) , quarter, half ratios, normal, double ratios
this bonus is used to tax people, and the gold can cover meat cost

you cant possibly feed maximum of 4 types, so you either feed one type on a max level
multiple on normal level and run out sometimes
or feed half ratios but all 4 types, via market and storage. There is a minimum you need per hour, there are steps how much you can afford, how much tax you can get for it, there is also a maximum what you can gain out of it. The rest is based on other activities like churches, beer and other things. While giving good and bad things, you can increase production, or battle bonus. The best strategy on a sandbox is to keep them in fear, produce more, then switch over, use the profit, good things, and use the battle bonus.

Now OHOL is a survival game, and instead of AI we got individuals, all those games got some kind of granaries, but AI can take from same place, or some distribution, in ohol people make their own food and space usage can be quite important.
In this regard is kinda like Don't starve, people are responsible for themselves in first place.
But to encourage team play and make it worthwhile, eves, and generally veterans can help others survive by producing on mass scale.

One fix would be top capping yum at 10 for example .
This would emphasize importancy of variety but not specifically all foods, only 10 of them.
Then it would be more about adapting to map, and the combination of 10 mass scale foods, rather than everything.
yum is kind of a simulation of morale/nutrition/healthy diet
In real life you don't eat every time different things, its enough to eat different type of things but you can safely repeat sometimes.
It wont make it worse eating same vegetables over 20 types of vegetables, can be boring or a bit better to eat 3-4 types but only gourmets produce such variety and its not for the health benefits.

The other thing could be a yum token, reaching 10 points would give a token which could be used in different ways, like a currency for buying specific things, like a new baby or whatnot.
just brainstorming, thoughts?

Booklat1 · 2019-03-09 17:56:09

i'd rather go the other direction, remove server +2 bonus and add some yum foods for each game stage

early we could have berry burdock pies and more cooked wild animal options, later mango pies and milk based foods, improved fishing would be cool.

fragilityh14 · 2019-03-09 18:11:54

i think the number of people going a long distance for yum chains is quite limited. And 10 isn't that high of a chain in a town that has stew, bread, saurkraut, milk, pies, etc.

i've had yum chains last half a lifetime putting quite little effort into it besides just choosing the order of my food, especially as in a developed town there's 5-10 good options just sitting around.

I'd be annoyed by capping it, as getting a 10 yum chain isn't even that massive. I don't see many people doing obviously stupid/wasteful things for the purpose of yum chaining. Though i don't use zoom mod, so what other players are doing is not that obvious to me.

I was realizing that watching the time lapse, that most of the people so annoyed by other players habits are probably using the zoom mod and can see more of what players are doing. There just isn't that much food scarcity in this game if people actually bother to make food. Even the berry eaters I think are only a problem because most of them aren't even taking care of the fields. [it is really inefficient, but a person who is actually making some compost and firing up the pumps etc could easily create a relatively large food surplus of berries in a lifetime with a tiny use of non-renewable resources. ]

I do majorly want to see food variety increased, so i suppose at a certain point it would get ridiculous, and take food challenges entirely out of the game. But I very much like the concept of there never being an ultimate food, even though that does remain mutton pies, even with the shorn sheep now producing dung. [maybe only shorn sheep should produce dung though, that seems way more balanced...because I don't think lambs producing dung was turned off, i didn't see it in the changes, but i don't know that i've been anywhere with a dung shortage since the change.]

Amon · 2019-03-09 18:36:16

The only solution for this is more foods implemented, and the cooks to do some varied food and employ delivery children to deliver food to stations where workers don't need to run far to get their yum up.

Tarr · 2019-03-09 18:45:08

At best if you're fully clothed in the best possible stuff or at least close you have a cap around 20 different foods you can managed to eat unless you're doing weird stuff to boost your food consumption. So at best you need 20~ of the available 40 different foods to reach what we'll call the yum cap. This cap can be reached by with relative easy AND can be reached avoiding bad stuff like berry pies, potatoes, and raw corn. The only catch is you need to make sure to have people making the other foods otherwise you'll have people running around like headless geese searching for an onion instead of just making something to eat.

Though if people aren't already mass producing the food for other yummers you'll end up with people doing exactly as you stated: living to eat. I don't think restricting the mechanic is worth it in the long run though since if people care to use it they shouldn't be punished for doing so.

futurebird · 2019-03-09 18:58:05

fragilityh14 wrote:

Even the berry eaters I think are only a problem because most of them aren't even taking care of the fields.

If we want newer players, babies who can't walk fast, or people who are teaching or need to talk to take care of the berries make certain that they tools and supplies they need are there.

I've seen people complain that a bunch of 2 year olds "aren't working" when there is no soil or the compost heap is far away, there is no water and they just arrived so they don't know where it is, or they are new and don't know how to use a basket or fire the pump or the difference between a bucket and a bowl when watering.

So, the new players, and those who can't move fast (or who don't play with zoom mod) are wandering often asking "soil?" "water?" no one answers.

The one that happens to me most often is I'm 2, my mom just dumped me in the field and there are no bowls or baskets.

Further I'll see berry patches with no alternative foods then people are mad when the berries get munched.

More experienced players should:
*Distribute food around berry patch, to smith, soup farm, sheep and nursery
*Collect plates and and bring them back to bakery.
*Check that there is water in buckets
*Check that there are baskets and bowls
*Gently encourage anyone still standing eating berries to have some pie or bread or soup

2-year olds who are new to a town will find it hard to find a bowl or basket and help, this causes a lot of death of young players. As a mom I put my kid near a bowl and try to spend my early life getting the berry patch ready to be a friendly place.

When playing as a dude I spend most of the time just putting out food and brining back meat, wheat, plates and water to the bakery.

When you see a stack of pies it means that somewhere someone is starving, not helping, just looking for any food, probably eating compost carrots out of desperation.

As for yum? I don't think many people care that much about it. I think it is wise to have a variety of foods just in case the supply line breaks for one of them. I've seen soup save a town. Seen eggs do it too. So I don't yell at the guy cooking eggs on the edge of town. That is insurance.

pein · 2019-03-10 06:16:06

with 10 foods you wouldn't be limited that much, you could have more food
i don't feel like i want to remember what i eaten last time
perhaps we could get higher lasting yum bonus

but imagine, 10 foods could be placed in quite a small place, 3x3 then the berry field
whenever you can go almost infinite, some may do it and its not good mechanic to do so

im generally not a farmer but i fix major issues, like missing tools or areas to improve on, i even build new pens or fences in strategic areas, connect the work, give task for the oens who want to work and if they listen we make good progress

but things like this many foods cant really be spread and distributed evenly when is a big chaos

breezeknight · 2019-03-10 12:18:26

pein wrote:

...
As a side effect we got the yumofiles, who live to eat, instead of eating to live
...

that's put nicely

i agree

one should use yum, it's there
but not hunt for it
it should be a tool & not a goal in itself

futurebird · 2019-03-10 12:49:13

pein wrote:

im generally not a farmer but i fix major issues, like missing tools or areas to improve on, i even build new pens or fences in strategic areas, connect the work, give task for the oens who want to work and if they listen we make good progress
but things like this many foods cant really be spread and distributed evenly when is a big chaos

I wish more berry fields were set up with gaps in the rows. They are impossible to pick for compost/sheep and hard to water and get soil too. Also, there isn't a location for "farm worker food station" ideally there should be some soup, a soup bowl** sliced bread, and a pie. That way people can "yum" a little with very low effort. "berry in bowl" gives you one more. Further it keeps the berries from being munched so you can feed the sheep and do everything else.

Anyway, I think it's worth it to put a few stone tiles (wood is too advance) in the center of the berry patch next to the natural watersource. Block it off for future generation when you are on gen-3.

I've seen a few well designed berry patches and I'm always impress because I know how hard it is to keep people from just spam-planting berries from one end of the earth to the other.

Amon · 2019-03-10 12:56:02

Chaos happens when multiple people try to do something with no organisation. If you appoint a kid to do food delivery their whole life and only that, a very generally neglected job, so less people likely to mess thrings up. If the kid is worth half grease, It'll be organised, trust me.-

Honestly, a better thing would be making a list of good foods for yum chaining to be put into a station and what to prioritise in focusing first.

Last edited by Amon (2019-03-10 13:04:40)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-10 13:23:04

pein wrote:

Variety is important but not on that level that one of each food is needed or main mechanic of the game. The math supports this, yet people got this weird cities with multiple foods then a huge berry field.

No. There exist only six items of clothing to get near perfect temperature for women. Fire also exists. So, after a bit all fertile women who try hard enough can get to the same level of temperature. Yum also affects fertility. Yum goes beyond 25x and the amount of yum available in large measure depends on the level of the society in terms of the quality of it's players. Multiple foods makes sense.

pein wrote:

Now OHOL is a survival game, and instead of AI we got individuals, all those games got some kind of granaries, but AI can take from same place, or some distribution, in ohol people make their own food and space usage can be quite important.
In this regard is kinda like Don't starve, people are responsible for themselves in first place.
But to encourage team play and make it worthwhile, eves, and generally veterans can help others survive by producing on mass scale.

People can already do that by mass producing a variety of foods on a mass scale. An example of doing this would consist of several experienced players making all 8 pie types on a mass scale once possible. Another would involve significantly more potato farming, which comes as VERY feasible, because there exists plenty of iron which can get redistributed from multipurpose newcomen engine technology towards this purpose.

pein wrote:

One fix would be top capping yum at 10 for example .

What are you worried that other families might outdo yours in terms of yum and thus become more fertile? No, yum should not get capped. That it can get so large comes as a means that players can increase their fertility, making it a main mechanic of the game. It also allows for substantial work to get done by the player past 55.

pein wrote:

This would emphasize importancy of variety but not specifically all foods, only 10 of them.
Then it would be more about adapting to map, and the combination of 10 mass scale foods, rather than everything.

The game already requires players to adapt to the map. Since all of the foods can do something, that means that players who know the food system as it stands can do more. That deepens the game and makes it more complex than what you've proposed, and invites learning more about the game. In contrast, a yum cap would make the game more shallow since it would result in only a few foods getting produced, instead of a settlement almost always having a use for more food types.

I think I agree with Booklat1, except I'm not clear on one thing he says. What I do understand of what he says, I agree with.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-03-10 13:24:35)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-10 13:24:23

Booklat1 wrote:

i'd rather go the other direction, remove server +2 bonus and add some yum foods for each game stage
early we could have berry burdock pies and more cooked wild animal options, later mango pies and milk based foods, improved fishing would be cool.

What is 'server +2 bonus'?

I agree otherwise. More potato based foods would be nice also.

Starknight_One · 2019-03-10 16:18:57

Spoonwood wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
i'd rather go the other direction, remove server +2 bonus and add some yum foods for each game stage
early we could have berry burdock pies and more cooked wild animal options, later mango pies and milk based foods, improved fishing would be cool.
What is 'server +2 bonus'?
I agree otherwise. More potato based foods would be nice also.

If you look at the food values of the items on OneTech, you'll notice that they are all formatted such: "Berry; Food: 5 (3+2 bonus)". This is because there is a +2 offset for food value of items asserted in the server code. Since the offset applies to each bite, it makes multi-bite foods *significantly* better than single-bite foods. Without the offset, popcorn only gives 1 pip per bite, x4 bites, while a single ear of corn would give 3 pips - a much more balanced situation than 12 vs. 5.

Potatoes in the current state are too expensive in terms of iron (unless we're flourishing), but you do you. I'd like more recipes for them too, though; my Irish ancestors demand chips!

pein · 2019-03-10 17:18:34

straight up:
yum is a meme
mushrooms are consumables, not a food, a good joke by jason, you cant change time and its only available when you empty a soil pit but don't dig it, make compost
onion and burdock, wild carrots and banana are there to help eves, they are scarce and unsustainable in long run
fishing is kinda meme too, cause worms had a long way from being useless, to slightly op, to become useless again then to be a bait
the true ranking is: raw food
then processed food
there should be no dispute between it, there isn't, numbers don't lie
maybe if pies would give more yum and less value, people would see it
but this whole yum maxing is something nobody planned, yum was introduced to combat the people who settled on one single crop, and not to punish the ones who try to feed them

competition can be fun within limits, but its not something everyone wants. it's a major strength and weakness of male brain.
similar to feelings for women, where empathy can be a very valuable thing or a major weakness.
a good game balance has bottom and top caps, psychological caps.
you don't talk about optimization when you got 1 of each 35 food, then it's a selfish record hunting.
while 10 or 15 could be a middle ground where most of people benefit from it so it would encourage teamwork.
same as carrot lifting or banana munching, is too op to get someone 35 food and not eat for rest of your life.

experienced people are experienced, so they already know shit choices of pies and don't make them on a public server.
same goes for people who played as eve, don't let an eve struggle, and iron gatherers don't like wasting iron, and farmers don't like wasting soil, and people who care about future and others, don't do decisions on personal benefits where others work get ruined. Make your damn shovel from the iron yu brought and make potatoes with that.

Adapting means that recognizing good choice, bad choices, and even if is different from the normal, getting the most out of it, and gain benefits by it. generic is when everything is fixed, regardless of place, resources, etc.
You have same chance of guessing the color of each card from a deck, than not guessing any.
Extremes are bad. No limit makes competitions crazy.

You can run your whole life eating wild food, even more stable than producing for yourself, easier. It wont make fun gameplay. People want fun, people want to test their skills.
Charcoal making to provide water for the noobs? boring ass life.
Kerosine and engine well? saves a lot of work
i made a few cars, mostly as male, mostly eating whatever, on a public server. repeat that after me while yumming. you cant, cause you spend too much time on eating and looking for food. Its easy to survive on your own on a more private setup.

They see your potato field and suicide, they see my setups and come and help, you can shove your yum up in your ass.

Thinking about what you ate last time is never a fun mechanic and never a good idea.
By making random things at random values you don't make better game. Lot of games got 4-6 resource types and they still great meanwhile lot of new games got 16-20 or more and make no sense.

capping yum would make possible to reach a cap. that would make people feel the need to reach a cap. i don't think im the only one who doesn't even start variety food, on a 20 or 30+ level cause never gonan provide 20 yum for everyone in a big family. But i can realistically produce 6 for everyone for example. Top capping just cuts the excessive amounts of bonuses while helps on lower end.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-11 01:25:01

Starknight_One wrote:

Potatoes in the current state are too expensive in terms of iron (unless we're flourishing), but you do you. I'd like more recipes for them too, though; my Irish ancestors demand chips!

No, they are not. People are still making newcomen multipurpose engine technology, such as diesel engine which require 41 iron *at minimum* before they become useful. People raid multiple tutorial areas for iron these days also. The adjacent lands often have mines within reachable distance via a horsecart. Twisted played earlier today, and you can see here at about 1:57:17 that he passes a stack of 73 iron in some family: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/393375424. He still insists that potatoes are problematic even though there exists plenty of iron to maintain them.

It's not lack of iron for shovels that hold back potatoes from getting used more. It's the player base.

Thanks for the clarification about the +2 bonus.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-03-11 01:46:09)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-11 01:41:11

pein wrote:

yum is a meme

Nope. Yum can increase fertility and productivity.

pein wrote:

there should be no dispute between it, there isn't, numbers don't lie

Numbers rely on assumptions. If the assumptions come as inadequate, then the numbers do not tell you all.

pein wrote:

maybe if pies would give more yum and less value, people would see it

lol... 8 types of pies exist in the game. That's 7 yum.

pein wrote:

but this whole yum maxing is something nobody planned, yum was introduced to combat the people who settled on one single crop, and not to punish the ones who try to feed them

Lol... I mean Jason didn't cap yum. So, I think yum maxing is something he planned on.

pein wrote:

experienced people are experienced, so they already know shit choices of pies and don't make them on a public server.

Lol. Cooking 7 of the 8 pie types can increase yum faster than other means. Additionally, I HAVE cooked 7 of the 8 pie types on a *public* server BEFORE making a single steel tool. Additionally, plenty of people can be wrong.

pein wrote:

same goes for people who played as eve, don't let an eve struggle, and iron gatherers don't like wasting iron, and farmers don't like wasting soil, and people who care about future and others, don't do decisions on personal benefits where others work get ruined. Make your damn shovel from the iron yu brought and make potatoes with that.

I'm pretty sure that fertility is not solely a personal benefit. It's a lineage benefit.

pein wrote:

Adapting means that recognizing good choice, bad choices, and even if is different from the normal, getting the most out of it, and gain benefits by it. generic is when everything is fixed, regardless of place, resources, etc.
You have same chance of guessing the color of each card from a deck, than not guessing any.
Extremes are bad. No limit makes competitions crazy.

Competitions come as the most exciting when you don't quite know how far the limit can get pushed. The Olympics come as exciting, in significant measure, because of that reason.

pein wrote:

Charcoal making to provide water for the noobs? boring ass life.

It isn't like only one person can run a charcoal pump. It isn't like there isn't anyone any on the bigserver who can learn how to do that in a life.

pein wrote:

Kerosine and engine well? saves a lot of work

The family has to get there first. Families can have fertility problems BEFORE completing a diesel water pump or before an oil rig gets set up.

pein wrote:

i made a few cars, mostly as male, mostly eating whatever, on a public server. repeat that after me while yumming. you cant, cause you spend too much time on eating and looking for food. Its easy to survive on your own on a more private setup.

So remember how I said I made 7 of the 8 pie types before making a single steel tool? Well, guess what happened later? I made a car! I've also used it to visit neighbors now.

pein wrote:

They see your potato field and suicide, they see my setups and come and help, you can shove your yum up in your ass.

No, they do NOT suicide when they see my potato field. And why would a rational person suicide when there's a clear sign that the fertility of women is important to the family?

pein wrote:

Thinking about what you ate last time is never a fun mechanic and never a good idea.
By making random things at random values you don't make better game.

It's not random, as your first sentence implied.

pein · 2019-03-11 06:22:56

and that shows how useless you are
pies before tools are worst thing ever
you can grind out with wild food
im not even making food for myself, im fine on wild food any level of civ
and you cant cook mutton without having knife

fertility is a good thing until a point when its not
that wont stop yummers, to save up versatile food for when is needed
as a male, eating that fish is generally useless while half hour later, a female could use it

you got things you can do
and you can do it right
i had one life with 4 kids
first son wasn't new got me iron, got me rabbits too when i asked
he died but that won me a bit of time on tool making

daughter was newish, she planted farm, i stopped her once, and told her to keep spacing between berries and make it 3x3
second son was new, explained how to cut boards, he did it
i was old, my second daughter died
my grandkids started coming, i already put boards around berry field

38 generations later i came back and each farm plot was 3x3 with boards around it

generic jobs are bad. clayton family had 92 people, like 40 called themselves a baker
no one got kindling, firewood, took out bones, bones from pen, no one made compost

sadly it is, people don't know to put last water back, and you are lucky you find a pond to fill a bucket
then it can happen again

meanwhile you take kerozene and you don't need fire at all, you got lots of water

and families can have 17 woman without having any varied food

making a car from scratch is different than making a car from parts already there
ofc if it takes only 4 rubber to finish it and some noozles, i do it any time, generally if someone spent a full life, i just need to assemble it and that takes max 30 min

i suicide if i see crowns, paper making and dogs. that's a sign of dumb rpers who live off others work and soon the town will die anyway, i already know they will piss me off and i rather die than stabbing all of them. fertility is not the only way. more people wont do more work, you are still helpless if it comes to low server pop and dumb females who die in two minutes

its one thing that 2 people want to compete, its total other when someone makes you compete
only fake people try to prove all the time
and only small camps do yum to snatch a bit of bonus, i na big camp where people know how to play properly, yum comes naturally by making stations where they can do multiple food efficiently
planting one single bean, catching one single fish is an exploit

good gameplay elements arent based on chance
like irl, you do 8 hours of work for a salary, you don't do 4 hours for a chance to get paid and 50%to get nothing

its not random, its maximal, the accent is not on variety, its on maximum
and that is random, its easier on a mid level camp, 2 hours after eve depleted a soil pile
its harder on big cities
it's a totally bad mechanic, you either go linear civ where processed food is easier to make
and raw is harder/not worth

worry about things has other name: doing nothing
even if you worry about fertility or not, it aint gonna make difference
people see a small pen, some complain is small, some don't care
some make a new one

yum is same, some don't care, some care when needed, most people don't care cause not worth it
then comes the yumofiles who waste a lot of stuff and try to justify it

instead i rather have a good threshold i can reach, be that 10 or 15
20+ is unsustainable and not what people want to do each life

DestinyCall · 2019-03-11 08:57:08

Amon wrote:

Honestly, a better thing would be making a list of good foods for yum chaining to be put into a station and what to prioritise in focusing first.

I made exactly that sort of list in another thread. It is a rough breakdown of all available foods into four tiers, based on efficiency, availability, and practical value to the village. Of note .. this list was put together based on an established village with access to iron tools and the potential to produce any food item. An eve camp or pre-sheep village will not have access to all foods yet, including many of the best foods.

DestinyCall wrote:

Tier 1 foods are good (or great) foods that should be present in any village and mass-produced when the necessary materials are available. These are the "ideal" staple foods for any village, large or small. If your village doesn't have any Tier 1 foods, your lineage is probably going to die out due to starvation very soon because the food chain is in serious danger. Tier 2 food is also "good food", but harder to mass-produce or not as efficient as Tier 1 foods. These foods are usually a good option for small-scale production in a town with a lot of Tier 1 foods, if you are interested in yum bonus or want to diversify the food chain. Tier 3 foods are borderline "bad" foods. These foods are limited in some way that prevents mass-production or they have significant cost barriers or better alternatives are available from the same ingredients. Due to these limitations, production and consumption of these foods should be limited in most villages. Lastly, Tier 4 foods are bad foods. Mass-production of these foods should be avoided due to high production or labor costs. There are better options or end-products that should be made from the same ingredients/resources. Production and consumption of these foods should generally be avoided in the majority villages to avoid significant waste.
TIER 1 FOODS
Rabbit pie
Mutton pie
Three sister stew
Bread
Whole milk
Skim milk
buttered bread
Popcorn
Gooseberry
Gooseberry in a bowl
TIER 2 FOODS
Rabbit carrot pie
Carrot pie
Omelette
Sliced Turkey
Turkey broth
Turkey drumstick
Bean burrito
Cooked rabbit
Cooked mutton
Cactus fruit
TIER 3 FOODS
Sauerkraut
Cooked goose
Carrot
Green beans
Wild onion
Burdock
Banana
Wild carrot
Pork Taco
Bean Taco
TIER 4 FOODS
Cooked fish
Mango slices
Berry pie
Berry carrot pie
Berry rabbit pie
Berry rabbit carrot pie
Baked potato
Half baked potato
Shucked ear of corn
Mushroom
...................
If you are interested in yum, start with Tier 1 foods and work your way toward Tier 4 foods. This is the most efficient and least wasteful way to yum. There are ten unique food items in each category, so if you work to establish all Tier 1 and 2 foods in your village during your lifetime, you will be providing a net benefit to your village while also facilitating your ability to maintain a +20 yum chain. Even if you just ensure that more villages have a domesticated cow and someone who knows how to milk a cow, that will be a huge benefit. And milk production supplies three unique yum opportunities alone. Hunting a turkey provides another three yum points and a bunch of low-cost food for the village. If you are adequately clothed, it is nearly impossible to eat enough times during a sixty minute time period to reach a +30 yum chain (unless you are intentionally contracting yellow fever repeatedly). Therefore, you should be able to yum in a food-efficient manner in most villages with a little bit of extra effort to fill in the Tier 1 and 2 food gaps, instead of extending your chain with more costly foods. If you are already spending the time to yum, why not take a moment to consider the quality of the food you eat?
If anyone is curious why a particular food is in a particular Tier, just ask. I would be happy to explain my reasoning. The number of foods in each tier is somewhat arbitrary, so there is probably some overlap between adjacent tiers, but the foods are organized roughly in order of "goodness", based on my current understanding of the game.

The very best food in the game, in terms of resource efficiency and pip value, is whole milk. Very low resource use for very high pip production. The main limitations are the presence of a domestic cow, the availability of buckets, and having someone in your village who knows how to milk a cow. Relatively few villages actually mass-produce milk, in my experience, but more villages SHOULD make milk, based on the math. In practice, most villages have meat pies and stew as their staple foods. Bread, berries, and popcorn are not as pip-dense and efficient as milk or meat pies, but they are relatively cheap and easy to mass-produce. The lower pip-value per bite also makes them good food options for children and elderly.

In Tier 2, turkey is the stand-out food. Turkey provides three different yum opportunities and a ton of food for almost no resource cost. It is unfortunately non-renewable, since turkeys do not respawn. If you eat a lot of turkey, it will become harder and harder to find more wild turkey and they are currently cannot be domesticated. However, if you find yourself in a village with many wild turkey nearby .. you should definitely consider hunting them for some tasty bird meat. Other meats, like rabbit and mutton, can also be cooked to increase your yum options, but the majority of your meat should be going into pies. Once you have enough meat only pies, you can consider branching out to carrot pies or rabbit carrot pies. Just be sure that the village has adequate carrot stores before using them in pies and remember that the carrot pie is not very tasty, so it won't last as long as a meat pie. Omelettes are a nice free and easy food to produce, but be aware of plate usage. Ideally, you will want to make extra plates for the village before doing the omelettes so you don't interfere with pie production or other jobs that require free plates.

I put the majority of the wild foods in Tier 3 because they are non-renewable. Once they are gone, they are gone for good. It is best to avoid consuming these foods when you have renewable alternatives available. Tacos have a steep water cost and require the use of limestone to produce the slack lime. They are also quite time-consuming to produce. But pork tacos are the only culinary outlet for pork meat, so it might be worth making them in a city over-run by pork meat. Sauerkraut has a steep one-time iron cost for the tools needed to process cabbage into an edible form and requires access to saltwater. If your village has an abundance of iron and a nearby ice hole, sauerkraut is a viable food choice. Otherwise, best to skip it.

Berry pies are in Tier 4 because berry pies are wasteful and there are much better pie options available. It is much better to eat rabbit pies and bowls of berries rather than berry pies. The baked potato has the highest tool usage (iron cost) of any food. Fresh corn provides a fraction of the food value that is possible by drying the corn and using it to make other corn-based foods, like stew, milk, popcorn, or even geese. Mangoes take a very long time to produce and do not provide enough food to cover the high water cost. Fishing is very time-consuming and not very rewarding. And mushrooms ... well ... eating mushrooms is hazardous for your health.

Alias · 2019-03-11 10:05:44

How about this: you can reach max e.g. 7 yum, but when you do you 2 or 3 bonus pips. So it rewards diversity, but not at pathological level.

This will allow town to specialize in food production as there will be no point to make all kinds of foods but some diversity will be very rewarding. Of course that limit and bonus can be tweaked, but 7 seems like reasonable challenge with nice reward of additional pips.

futurebird · 2019-03-11 10:49:22

I don't understand why:

berry
bowl berry
popcorn
mutton pie
stew
burrito
berry

should be so much better than

berry
bowl berry
popcorn
berry
mutton pie
stew
burrito

just because the chain was broken. I think a more realistic "yum factor" would give a bonus to average diversity over say the last 40 pips eaten, not force you to try to remember the last 8 things you ate so you end up picking up food and putting it down again looking for yum. In reality both of the above would have similar health benefits for a real person. But in game the 2nd one is much worse.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-11 13:19:51

pein wrote:

and that shows how useless you are
pies before tools are worst thing ever
you can grind out with wild food
im not even making food for myself, im fine on wild food any level of civ
and you cant cook mutton without having knife

Pretty sure having more yum is useful. Can't eat steel tools. Nor the mallet either. Your words also come as telling "grind out". I certainly wasn't 'grinding out' when I had those pies up. Additionally, I didn't say that I couldn't live on wild food. Cooked foods with good yum is better than wild food. Furthermore, who was I useless to when I made those pies before steel tools? Myself? But living until 60 came as easier once I had those pies up than during my first life or two where I was eating at a wild berry bush at 58 and 59 repeatedly to live to 60.

pein wrote:

sadly it is, people don't know to put last water back, and you are lucky you find a pond to fill a bucket
then it can happen again

"You cannot multiply water by adding it to the pond since it will be guaranteed to be taken out if water has been put in by the player. Putting in multiple water does not affect the chances and in fact loses any extra water you may put in." https://onehouronelife.gamepedia.com/Canada_Goose_Pond

pein wrote:

meanwhile you take kerozene and you don't need fire at all, you got lots of water

Wrong. You do need fire. Fire is needed to run to make charcoal for the oil rig and the fractional distiller, as well as to run the oil rig and the fractional distiller for the kerosone. All the processing needed to make any newcomen multipurpose newcomen engine useful takes more fire than running the charcoal pump 3 times. The wiki isn't joking when it says 'many kindling' come as needed to make a diesel engine.

pein wrote:

making a car from scratch is different than making a car from parts already there

Sure is. What makes you think I didn't make it from scratch?

pein wrote:

i suicide if i see crowns, paper making and dogs. that's a sign of dumb rpers who live off others work and soon the town will die anyway, i already know they will piss me off and i rather die than stabbing all of them. fertility is not the only way. more people wont do more work, you are still helpless if it comes to low server pop and dumb females who die in two minutes

Lol, what? On low population servers people Eve chain. Children don't end up mattering if you can Eve chain.

pein wrote:

its one thing that 2 people want to compete, its total other when someone makes you compete
only fake people try to prove all the time
and only small camps do yum to snatch a bit of bonus, i na big camp where people know how to play properly, yum comes naturally by making stations where they can do multiple food efficiently

I'm pretty sure that in a big camp there exist plenty of people who don't know how to yum and others who simply don't want to.

pein wrote:

good gameplay elements arent based on chance

I'm pretty sure that players of poker, euchre, and plenty of other card games disagree with you. Also, increasing your yum isn't based on chance.

pein wrote:

like irl, you do 8 hours of work for a salary, you don't do 4 hours for a chance to get paid and 50%to get nothing

That's money though. It's not a game.

pein wrote:

its not random, its maximal, the accent is not on variety, its on maximum
and that is random, its easier on a mid level camp, 2 hours after eve depleted a soil pile
its harder on big cities

Nope. I don't agree. The problem with bigger cities lies in that they don't mass produce a wide variety of foods. The problem thus mostly lies in the lack of good cooks who cook a variety of yummy foods. The lack of potato farming also hurts things.

pein wrote:

yum is same, some don't care, some care when needed, most people don't care cause not worth it
then comes the yumofiles who waste a lot of stuff and try to justify it

Some people don't care, because they don't believe it worth it. Some of those people have open minds though. If they see it's value, then they will yum more. It's worth it. What isn't worth it? Iron that doesn't end up going towards the survival of a lineage.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-11 13:30:50

DestinyCall wrote:

Once you have enough meat only pies, you can consider branching out to carrot pies or rabbit carrot pies.

All pies with the exception of mutton pies can get cooked as soon as the plates become available and the rabbits have gotten hunted. People can consider many of the vegetable pies before meat only pies.

The tier system above also does not account for yum at all, as perhaps as best illustrated by this comment:

DestinyCall wrote:

Berry pies are in Tier 4 because berry pies are wasteful and there are much better pie options available. It is much better to eat rabbit pies and bowls of berries rather than berry pies.

Also this one:

DestinyCall wrote:

Fresh corn provides a fraction of the food value that is possible by drying the corn and using it to make other corn-based foods, like stew, milk, popcorn, or even geese.

DestinyCall wrote:

Mangoes take a very long time to produce and do not provide enough food to cover the high water cost.

I don't agree with that once a settlement has a newcomen charcoal pump (or other infinite water source).

Alias · 2019-03-11 14:29:43

futurebird wrote:

I don't understand why:
berry
bowl berry
popcorn
mutton pie
stew
burrito
berry

should be so much better than
berry
bowl berry
popcorn
berry
mutton pie
stew
burrito
just because the chain was broken. I think a more realistic "yum factor" would give a bonus to average diversity over say the last 40 pips eaten, not force you to try to remember the last 8 things you ate so you end up picking up food and putting it down again looking for yum. In reality both of the above would have similar health benefits for a real person. But in game the 2nd one is much worse.

Because first has 5 spaces between same foods while second has only 2 spaces and this is how yum works. BTW: berry bowl yum should be removed. My proposal is trivial to implement. Its probably two minute job. Yours is more complicated and punishes foods giving more pips (as you will eat less items before reaching 40 pips).
What is it with realism? Point of this discussion is making yum balanced, not realistic.

Starknight_One · 2019-03-11 16:00:12

I'd been toying with the idea of uncoupling the Yum chain from the Yum bonus. My basic idea was that the more Yum bonus you get, the harder it is to get the next point. Curently looking at this progression:

(I stopped at +9 because 1) the progression should be plain by now, and 2) there's only 40 food items in the game at the moment. Well, 39 + mushroom.)

I was also toying with the idea of a 'favorite food'. This would never count as Meh to you. But I suspect 99.9% of players would pick Gooseberry.

In order to make Yum more useful and desirable, how about a .1 s increase in your food delay per point of Yum bonus in addition to the extra boxes? Or possibly a 1% adjustment towards moderate temperature per point of bonus?

We could then add Yum bonuses to foods. Maybe butter isn't just 2 extra pips on that bread - maybe it's also +1 to your Yum chain. Or more.

EDIT: I promise I had this down before Eddie said anything... I just forgot to post it:

A Meh food reduces your Yum count (not bonus) by 5 (or by its food value?). If this reduces your Yum count to 0 or below, it is set to 0 and you start over, as normal. Otherwise, continue Yumming.

EDIT2: I hate when I math wrong.

Last edited by Starknight_One (2019-03-11 16:24:15)

CrazyEddie · 2019-03-11 16:00:41

futurebird wrote:

I don't understand why: [..] should be so much better than [..] just because the chain was broken. I think a more realistic "yum factor" would give a bonus to average diversity over say the last 40 pips eaten, not force you to try to remember the last 8 things you ate so you end up picking up food and putting it down again looking for yum.

This is a good point.

Yum as a game mechanic would be improved if it weren't a strict chain. Requiring a strict sequence makes it just a toy, like collecting a whole set of Pokemon cards.

An easy alteration would be for "meh" foods to reduce your multiplier by, say, 1x or 2x rather than reset the whole chain back to zero, and simultaneously shorten the chain's history by the same amount. That would reward having a large and diverse food base without requiring people to go chasing after exotic and inefficient foods just to keep their personal chain going, and would allow people to benefit from that diverse food base without having to micromanage their consumption order.

That would change yum from a toy to a useful, important, and practical element of an advanced civilization.

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