Is Heat Working Intuitively for You? [OUTDATED]

betame · 2018-10-02 21:52:30

Hi! I’m here to talk all about heat!
—In OHOL gameplay, code, and IRL.

This is more of a discussion on game design rather than physics (though both are welcome). Heat* management is a core aspect of OHOL game play, since it affects food (ergo play focus), and birth rate. I want to know your feelings on:

Does your heat meter match about what you’d expect irl?

How do you manage your heat? How does it affect your game-play experiences and goals?

  
Upfront, I am hoping this discussion will help develop the game’s heat* mechanics, but that’s not as simple as making them closely resemble irl. There’s value in “game heat” being somewhat different from “irl heat”: biomes with fewer resources can be balanced by having moderate temperature; building something that moderates your temperature could reduce the drive for survival/food management cooperative goals; managing heat irl may not be challenging enough to make a game out of.

Shoot your questions about heat, too!

*wanted to note that heat is energy, and it’s often used colloquially to refer to temperature. Technically, temperature change = heat divided by heat capacity.

Last edited by betame (2019-02-17 03:50:26)

Jk Howling · 2018-10-02 22:20:19

Personally I don't think the heat meter quite matches what I'd expect irl.

Grassland, Rocky, Swamp and Prairie are all the same temp, being rather cold. Snow is frigid. Desert is hot.

-I'd expect the Prairie to be warmer, as it reminds me a bit more of an African Savannah than anything- but if it's truly a prairie, it'd probably be a bit on the colder side.
-I'd expect the Rocky biomes, which remind me of mountains, to be a bit colder than average.
-I'd imagine Swamps to be quite a bit warmer, as they often bring to mind warm, lush, humid places [like the Everglades] for me. Also, an article I found states that swamps in general average between 15-35C [60-95F] in temp worldwide.

Since there's no day-night cycle in this, and no seasonal changes, this is mostly based on what a certain biome brings to mind when thought of, and also in general daytime temperatures. Of course, this is mostly opinion based. While I think of the lush, humid Everglades when I hear 'swamp' someone else might think of something entirely different.

Outside of making sure my eve camp is set up near a desert so I can raise kids more efficiently, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to heat in-game. Finding a good eve camp is probably the most it affects on my gameplay experience, as it can take quite a lot longer to find a good balance of desert, swamps with ponds, and lots of grassland to provide resources. Otherwise, while I gladly accept clothes early on to make the impact on food loss a bit less extreme, I don't give it much mind.

Last edited by Jk Howling (2018-10-02 22:21:23)

Falsewall · 2018-10-02 23:51:29

Feel temp holding while running needs to be fixed. Can't properly balance temp till it's done.

betame · 2018-10-02 23:53:39

Jk Howling wrote:

Since there's no day-night cycle in this, and no seasonal changes, this is mostly based on what a certain biome brings to mind when thought of, and also in general daytime temperatures. Of course, this is mostly opinion based. While I think of the lush, humid Everglades when I hear 'swamp' someone else might think of something entirely different.

I guessed similarly; where day/night cycles (730/minute) are averaged out for how uncomfortable they are. I did some quick googling to estimate irl biome temperatures, which placed the desert at extreme day-night 100-30F (or 35 degrees average away from room temp), the tundra at a yearly cycle averaging 0F, and the global average temperature for everything else at 55F.

Also I found a great analysis in defense of the current meta by Morti here

In code, they're given "heat output" of 2,0, and minus 0.15, and an additional +1 in the player's cell. This corresponds to 0.8, 0, minus 0.06, and 0.4 heat, which then get spread out to the surrounding tiles. I'm not certain assigning temperatures to these makes complete sense, but perhaps 100, 40, 35, and 70F, again, averaged out to the surrounding tiles.
I use F because it was created for weather, with earths extreme temperatures near 100 and 0.

I imagine the parallel irl biomes similarly to you.

And that strategy looks common to me; as long as you're in a desert, you don't need to worry about clothes.

Last edited by betame (2018-10-03 10:27:50)

pein · 2018-10-03 03:19:38

clothing is a form of protection so should always be a bonus, or have something which is always a bonus
this is a game after all, so we can have clothes as style choice or a bonus

lategame nature shouldnt be so important, terraforming should do the job
so central heated rooms, walled off cities
water pipes maybe
in Oxygen not included you could do some fun stuff with temperature, cleaning polluted air and liquify chloride, make gold out of amalgam
that was more complex and even if had no intention to really do that, the game allowed some science in enclosed rooms

clothes should give absolute bonus toward middle not relative to biome
should be 4 type of gear
1. ragged/decaying
2. basic /style
3. clothes that heat you up to middle in normal biome
4. clothes that are balanced in every biome

FeverDog · 2018-10-03 07:02:53

After a period of being obsessed with making sure I was clothed I noticed I'm more often overheated than not which has made me pull back from the obsession. The current meta sees most successful settlements being built in hotter areas which seems realistic to me. So the most important time to be clothed is as an Eve, running around trying to find a good place to settle. Otherwise, you're mostly in the desert where clothes are a detriment. Yes, in a "city" you often move around colder biomes but it seems more trouble than its worth to be constantly putting on and taking off clothes. Plus then people tend to steal 'em. I guess you could just stay as much as possible in one part of the city...

Anyway, I'm not into nudism, so what I'd like to see is some hot weather friendly clothes--sarongs, saris, chest wraps for women (whatever you'd call a primitive bra I guess), thoabs (a long, dress-like cloth Bedouin men wear), etc. Our civs have evolved out of cavemen clothes long ago... Where's the cotton/linen?

boggers · 2018-10-03 07:44:39

The most counter intuitive aspect of heat for me is that straw hats and reed skirts are detrimental in the desert.

I agree with pein that some clothes (straw hat, reed skirt, and also aprons) should always nudge your temperature toward the center a little rather than always raise it.

Temperature in buildings seems quite broken. Fixing it would encourage players to build more.

I posted in another thread this idea about building temperatures... any wall tile should be perfect temperature. Being a wall you can't actually stand on the perfect spot, but it contributes to the squares around it. Combine this with floor tiles working the opposite to how they are now - making temperature changes between interior tiles smoother rather than sharper, and buildings would be useful.

FeverDog · 2018-10-03 10:04:33

Maybe the presence of people should generate heat as well.

betame · 2018-10-03 10:25:53

In common, y'all believe some clothes should reduce the environment's Heat Output, or nudge it toward ~1, or at least not contribute to our rValue. Or perhaps simply move our Player Heat toward the Target Temperature.

Also buildings should better reduce the environment's effects, perhaps in a similar way to above (Bogger's suggestion would be like making the wall tile's Heat Output ~1), and floors reducing rValue.

Also for note: fur clothes were never intended to bring us to perfect temp in any biome.

Falsewall wrote:

Feel temp holding while running needs to be fixed. Can't properly balance temp till it's done.

I see your thread on that now, and I'm anxiously awaiting with you for a verdict on that.

FeverDog wrote:

Maybe the presence of people should generate heat as well.

I'd imagined that too, plus puppies! But perhaps we'd exploit it too much if given the chance? idk.

Morti · 2018-10-03 22:58:42

Read through this, no arguments, but I do have a suggestion for an idea that may one day reach Jason and get into the game; the temperature of the food, and drinks, we consume, should influence body temperature.

Foods that are prepared on fires and in ovens, should have a temporary heat value that lasts a comparable amount of time to the number of pips they add to the food meter. The temp meter goes from 0 to 1, so the values the foods add and the time that those values are added to our own could, for now, be based on how filling those foods are.

Some examples:
A serving from a bowl of stew adds 12 points, plus the 2 point adjustment to all food across the board for a total of 14. Eating the stew would add 0.14 to your temperature for 14 seconds.
Cactus fruit, not being heated by a fire or oven, could cool the body for a comparable amount of time; 8 base, +2 for all, that's 10, so for 10 seconds your temp would go down 0.10.

The formulas for time and temp as well as the way the temp transitions; gradually adjusting rather than immediately, as food is digested, these could all be more elaborate. Rather than just saying time = food in seconds and heat = 0.01 * food, some variables or operations could be added to make the effect more reasonable in terms of the game.

This would also make things like cold drinks, ice cream, soup and hot tea, things that could be added which, may not affect the food meter as much as they would the temp meter. Food could also gain or lose these values over time as they are sitting out, if that sort of information isn't too stressful on the servers. A plate of hot burritos could become a plate of cold burritos, a cold bowl of berries may warm up if left sitting out in the sun.

This could also be used to simulate 'damage' from temperature; a cheesy dish straight out of the oven could be so hot at first that if consumed straight away may raise the temp meter drastically for a short period of time. Though, that effect may be better simulated in some other way, say, the person has a frown and is unable to eat anymore food for a short period of time.

--

Food's temperature should be, temporarily, factored into our own upon consumption.

betame · 2018-10-04 00:03:56

@Morti
I like that concept and I think someone else does too...

jasonrohrer wrote:

I did like that the warmth of a fire "stays with you for a while" when you walk away. Maybe the center cell should have memory only...

There's even a sort of framework for it in the code already; held items (even in containers), and clothes (right?? never intended to be just rValue?) can contribute to our Player Heat Output (though all held items/clothes right now have a Heat Value of 0). And there is some memory of what our last meal was too!

@Falsewall
!!! just noticed this answer from that same post way back! I still hope there's some way to correct it. Perhaps client-side calculations? Aren't we sent map updates every time we exit our map grid?

jasonrohrer wrote:

The "hold down the mouse" thing is a different issue, having to do with WHEN the server updates your temp and tells you about it (only when it sends you a player update, which only happens when your move is done).

Last edited by betame (2018-10-04 00:04:26)

betame · 2018-10-04 00:30:15

Wow just saw this. So excited!

jasnorohrer wrote:

Cooling clothing IS possible with the current engine, because objects can give off negative heat. Like, an ice block sitting on the ground could produce negative heat (the opposite of a fire). An ice shirt could do something similar. This is a bit of a stretch in thermodynamic terms, but I guess they're really just heat sinks.
I've been hesitant, so far, to use this for straw hats.... because they're not really icy or heat sinks. But I suppose it would feel good to put one on in the desert and cool off.
However, the entire thermo model is going to be overhauled in the near future. It's way too finicky as it stands.

boggers · 2018-10-04 03:50:06

Morti wrote:

the temperature of the food, and drinks, we consume, should influence body temperature.

The zombie survival game 7 days to die does this pretty well. Certain foods and drinks have a warming or cooling effect for a limited duration. It has positive and negative heat clothing too, but without OHOL's brutal inventory limitations so you can carry and swap between overcoat for heating / poncho for cooling.

betame · 2018-10-07 03:22:54

Heat was updated 10/5!
For players joining after: Discussion before this was when standing on a tile instantly gave you that tile's heat (the heat you now get when you stand there for a long time) until you stood on a new tile.

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#1 2018-10-02 21:52:30