Family professions.

fug · 2020-02-23 04:37:53

As the title suggests as a means to tighten up direct family units what about adding family professions? The idea is you inherit your mothers profession like the hierarchy system until you're old enough to decide to change professions or stick with it. An example of a name might look like "Your Lady Tina Tini the Baker." If that looks too cluttered maybe profession trumps title unless it's one of the higher titles in the game as that denotes you're a leader over all else anyways.

So what would a profession do besides give a random title? Unlock about 3 or so title related tools which makes working with your mother, brothers, or sisters less redundant as having 5 people who know the oven is generally a bad choice for the entire village. This would basically free up children in the early life to help out with tasks without hurting their potential future things they might want to do in a life which encourages mother-child bonding unless your kids have absolutely zero interest in what you do.

Some examples of titles + free tool slots would look like:

The Chef/Baker

- Oven
- Hot coals
- Knife

The Farmer

- Hoe
- Shovel
- Diesel water pump

The Carpenter

-Stakes
-Mallet
-Adze

The Smith

- Tongs
- Kiln
- Hammer

The Explorer

- Charcoal pencil
- Knife
- Hot coals.

The Medic

- Pads
- Sewing
- Knife/Sterilized knife (just make these the same tools like stone hoe + steel hole.)

The Artisan

- Tong
- Kiln
- Blowpipe

The Tailor

- Loom
- Sewing
- Shears

The Fishmonger

- Shrimp net
- Fishing rod
- Knife or shears.

The Lumberjack

- Axe + stone hatchet (or make hatchet a freebie to all.)
- Bone saw
- Fire bow drill

The Survivalist

- Bow and Arrow
- Sewing
- Hot coals

You get the point I'm making. This adds a fun roleplaying addition (fluff titles), a mechanic that encourages working with your family (free tool slots), and would overall improve the issue with tool slots in the first place. To prevent abuse, only allow someone to quit a profession once in a life and ONLY if they were born with it. This way players can't essentially bypass tool slot restrictions by taking up new jobs while still allowing children to choose their own professions later in life.

Edit: Added a few more professions just as examples/ideas.

Last edited by fug (2020-02-24 00:28:54)

DestinyCall · 2020-02-23 05:27:17

I really like this idea.

testo · 2020-02-23 05:59:53

This is by far the simplest idea, I had concieved something similar in another thread but a lot more clunky in terms of implementation. GJ. It is unfortunate that in my mind Jason has a thing for dismissing ideas when they aren´t his.

Melea · 2020-02-23 06:44:05

I really like that!

Inherited professions make sense, for loads of history and even now children are fairly likely to follow in their parent's footsteps because that's the work they've grown up around. Then giving a once-per-life change of profession allows for children that want/need to branch out away from the family business.

Amon · 2020-02-23 09:50:51

This is a very nice separation of skills.

wondible · 2020-02-23 15:23:44

Why axe for explorer? Are they to be covering lumberjack as well? (which itself doesn't need many skills) Perhaps pencil for mapping?

This may be okay if it's 3-for-1 or at least 3-for-2, since you lose some flexibility. Jobs sometimes blend into other areas (tailor into shepherd into farmer) and there is always the odd jobs.

Also: new player experience. Does a carpenter get stakes or bow saw? What does an explorer even mean? Can i use that tool or will it cost me a slot? (I'm fine - my mod shows tools... but I'm the only person using it) Also, for a really new player, "some" tools cost a slot, and "some" tools don't. Backwards holding will help, except for ovens and other fixed objects.

Changing jobs seems like it would be more of an advanced player thing - what would it do for you? People could probably guess that bakers get oven, but what if you became a carpenter to put a handle and wheels on a box, only to find you don't have bow saw or bow drill? Also, which would you lose by changing jobs?

SirCaio · 2020-02-23 15:41:59

A similar idea is also present in this very interesting suggestion thread: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9095

Lava · 2020-02-23 18:50:46

Love this idea, if diseases gets implemented I would love to be the doctor role so I can heal people assuming that cures are implemented as well as diseases.

Last edited by Lava (2020-02-23 18:52:04)

sigmen4020 · 2020-02-23 20:04:23

You would probably need to have more tools for each profession, because 3 is quite a small number if that is the total amount of tools you’re gonna be able to use for an entire life. And how would Eve work, since she (and probably her kids too) will need to learn quite a few early tools, that don’t necessarily fit into a logical profession. And especially not with only 3 tool slots. Also there should probably be professions that you could have as secondary professions instead having it be your one and only profession. Example of this would be the Medic profession. That sounds like the most boring profession in the world if you won’t be able to do anything else.

Outside of that I like the main idea of it, since I myself suggested something similar some time back.

testo · 2020-02-23 21:06:06

sigmen4020 wrote:

You would probably need to have more tools for each profession, because 3 is quite a small number if that is the total amount of tools you’re gonna be able to use for an entire life. And how would Eve work, since she (and probably her kids too) will need to learn quite a few early tools, that don’t necessarily fit into a logical profession. And especially not with only 3 tool slots. Also there should probably be professions that you could have as secondary professions instead having it be your one and only profession. Example of this would be the Medic profession. That sounds like the most boring profession in the world if you won’t be able to do anything else.
Outside of that I like the main idea of it, since I myself suggested something similar some time back.

But sigmen I see the idea not as a "full setskill" but as a "basic tools for...". Lets say you are a carpenter, and you are making or expanding a pen on your lifetime. You need to learn stakes/adze/shovel/mallet anyways. When your child is born he/she gets the basics stakes/adze/mallet *for free* and still gets to learn whatever may need to complete this or any other job. I don´t see why you would need four or more toolslots since the focus is not on what makes you "carpenter" but in the inheritance.

Keyin · 2020-02-23 23:05:43

Wilderness survivalist, or something of the sort, could be a useful profession too.

I think it is fair to assume in a real eve camp many hunter/gathering skills would be second-nature to everyone.

Morti · 2020-02-23 23:18:51

Let's play a game.

One tool per person.

See how that works for a month.

Morti · 2020-02-23 23:28:36

fug · 2020-02-24 00:23:13

wondible wrote:

Why axe for explorer? Are they to be covering lumberjack as well? (which itself doesn't need many skills) Perhaps pencil for mapping?
This may be okay if it's 3-for-1 or at least 3-for-2, since you lose some flexibility. Jobs sometimes blend into other areas (tailor into shepherd into farmer) and there is always the odd jobs.
Also: new player experience. Does a carpenter get stakes or bow saw? What does an explorer even mean? Can i use that tool or will it cost me a slot? (I'm fine - my mod shows tools... but I'm the only person using it) Also, for a really new player, "some" tools cost a slot, and "some" tools don't. Backwards holding will help, except for ovens and other fixed objects.
Changing jobs seems like it would be more of an advanced player thing - what would it do for you? People could probably guess that bakers get oven, but what if you became a carpenter to put a handle and wheels on a box, only to find you don't have bow saw or bow drill? Also, which would you lose by changing jobs?

The reason axe was under explorer is because the original post was a pretty quick draft (missed out on artisan or at the very least fish monger.)

I'd go so far as to say bone saw goes under something like the Lumberjack

- Axe
- Saw
- Bow-drill.

This way carpenter does boxes, fences, sledges, and general building for free but either has to find a lumberjack to cut his logs (both tree and butt) then drill it. Of course, because job titles aren't exclusive with all tool slots this allows someone to pick up tools to help balance out their free roster. For example, a smith might take up the file so they can make knifes, or fishmonger might take up hot coals to be able to cook their product.

In relation to changing jobs sure there would be initial issues with people not realizing certain jobs have crossover like artisan to smith only changes one tool overall but I think most general ideas have reasonable connections to what tools you would think you have. Plus with 6-7 tool slots which is what I assume most people have potentially getting 0-3 depending on what you already know makes tool slots still limit people but also allows for more overall freedom. If you for example know knife and switch to a profession with knife as a freebie you DO NOT get your slot back. You've devoted your life to already learning a knife and don't need to be taught how to use it again.

But on the flip, should you not know something and gain it through a job such as starting as a farmer and swapping to chef you DO NOT get to keep the original tool slots unless you've learned them yourself. This prevents people from trying to game the system to switch on the fly to something for a moment vs switching because you want/need to.

Melea · 2020-02-24 00:23:38

sigmen4020 wrote:

You would probably need to have more tools for each profession, because 3 is quite a small number if that is the total amount of tools you’re gonna be able to use for an entire life.

The original post mentioned that profession-related tools were "free tool slots" - sounds like an addition to the use-as-you-wish current tool slots.

So if you're the baker you automatically 'know' Oven, Hot Coals, and Knife. But you still have your 5-10 native tool slots to use as you wish. (Though those would probably need lowered a little bit if a free-slots profession system like this was ever implemented.)

It essentially makes sure that you always know all the essential skills for your trade. Instead of trying to become a baker, but you miscalculated and don't have enough tool slots remaining to cut your loaf of bread.

fug · 2020-02-24 00:34:48

Melea wrote:

sigmen4020 wrote:
You would probably need to have more tools for each profession, because 3 is quite a small number if that is the total amount of tools you’re gonna be able to use for an entire life.
The original post mentioned that profession-related tools were "free tool slots" - sounds like an addition to the use-as-you-wish current tool slots.
So if you're the baker you automatically 'know' Oven, Hot Coals, and Knife. But you still have your 5-10 native tool slots to use as you wish. (Though those would probably need lowered a little bit if a free-slots profession system like this was ever implemented.)
It essentially makes sure that you always know all the essential skills for your trade. Instead of trying to become a baker, but you miscalculated and don't have enough tool slots remaining to cut your loaf of bread.

That's the exact idea. You don't want to be picking a profession and suddenly walking into the issue the current system has where you decide you would like to be a baker but end up not being able to slice bread or even able to use the oven because earlier in life someone needed something filed.

It's supposed to be a supplement to the tool slot system where you've got a base (lets just say 6 or whatever) and by picking a profession you potentially earn 0-3 free tools depending on what you end up choosing. In the case of a child the inherited system allows the kid get a feel for what their parent is doing which allows them to then decide if that's something they'd like or they can choose their own path in life and do whatever they'd like without being tied down.

Titles also work to allow you to quickly identify people who know tools without picking up a bunch of random objects sort of how the + system works right now. "Oh this guy is a Lumberjack, he can help restart the fire! Oh, this person is a smith I can ask them to make me a shovel."

fug · 2020-02-24 00:45:16

Keyin wrote:

Wilderness survivalist, or something of the sort, could be a useful profession too.

I think it is fair to assume in a real eve camp many hunter/gathering skills would be second-nature to everyone.

Added it as an idea up on the original post. My biggest thing is I don't want to inflate the amount titles/tools too much because eventually everything is going to be a weird mumbo jumbo of trying to min-max which jobs covers the most useful items vs something you want to do. For example:

The Locksmith (not something I would want to add.)

- File
- Hammer
- Mallet

File is so niche that it really should be something you pick up, hammer would seem weird solo without tongs or kiln because then you can only use it for really weird cases like lock picking, making shears, and dismantling knives so that's better as a smith job, and of course mallet is pretty niche too if you aren't doing construction related jobs.

On the other hand something like the blacksmith job can effectively do the base job (smith and make steel tools) while then either basically becoming high tech with all newcomen attachments for the base five extra tool slots OR can decide to smith and maybe farm/bake. I do however think some items should be left out of tool groups for the sole purpose of it being too one dimensional to justify as being part of a profession. Blacksmiths can make the blade then use one of their slots to finish the knife which overall seems fair.

wondible · 2020-02-24 03:59:18

fug wrote:

I don't want to inflate the amount titles/tools too much

Thats another thing to consider.

How does someone know what the possible jobs are? How do they know which tools they get? e.g. does this have the tools I'm interested in right now.

So as I'm thinking about this, I have a riff: jobs are player created. With paper (or maybe a couple paper made into a book), people can create their own titles and tool lists (the mechanics of picking tools will need some thought) Learning a job couldn't be a simple matter of picking up the paper, as with maps, but reading it would tell you the title and tools. There would need to a student's hat, or sacrificing another paper for study notes (or diploma?) There won't be an "Eve job" because people haven't reached the tech level for vocational training yet. But if somebody wanted to psuedo-eve, you could perhaps design a Pioneer job to get people started.

fug · 2020-02-24 04:15:32

wondible wrote:

fug wrote:
I don't want to inflate the amount titles/tools too much
Thats another thing to consider.
How does someone know what the possible jobs are? How do they know which tools they get? e.g. does this have the tools I'm interested in right now.
So as I'm thinking about this, I have a riff: jobs are player created. With paper (or maybe a couple paper made into a book), people can create their own titles and tool lists (the mechanics of picking tools will need some thought) Learning a job couldn't be a simple matter of picking up the paper, as with maps, but reading it would tell you the title and tools. There would need to a student's hat, or sacrificing another paper for study notes (or diploma?) There won't be an "Eve job" because people haven't reached the tech level for vocational training yet. But if somebody wanted to psuedo-eve, you could perhaps design a Pioneer job to get people started.

You're thinking way too far on the level of mechanics. Doing paper, hats, any of that sort of thing is going into the realm or idealism that is much much too deep. Keep it simple and have the jobs picked from a command such as "I am a Lumberjack, I am no longer an Artisan." This puts the choosing your profession something around your 20's if you don't want your inherited one and picking around the early 20's or potentially teens.

All three tools should fit in one of the little message blocks in the left corner. "You are a Lumberjack, you learned X, Y, Z." "You are now a Baker you know A, B, C." In the case of where do you learn the title stuff as in what they are just put it in the news post for people to find and you can even make an example on the pause menu.

You even get to have the fun weekly title of "Get a Job." along with everything else.

sigmen4020 · 2020-02-24 07:37:56

fug wrote:

Melea wrote:
sigmen4020 wrote:
You would probably need to have more tools for each profession, because 3 is quite a small number if that is the total amount of tools you’re gonna be able to use for an entire life.
The original post mentioned that profession-related tools were "free tool slots" - sounds like an addition to the use-as-you-wish current tool slots.
So if you're the baker you automatically 'know' Oven, Hot Coals, and Knife. But you still have your 5-10 native tool slots to use as you wish. (Though those would probably need lowered a little bit if a free-slots profession system like this was ever implemented.)
It essentially makes sure that you always know all the essential skills for your trade. Instead of trying to become a baker, but you miscalculated and don't have enough tool slots remaining to cut your loaf of bread.

That's the exact idea. You don't want to be picking a profession and suddenly walking into the issue the current system has where you decide you would like to be a baker but end up not being able to slice bread or even able to use the oven because earlier in life someone needed something filed.
It's supposed to be a supplement to the tool slot system where you've got a base (lets just say 6 or whatever) and by picking a profession you potentially earn 0-3 free tools depending on what you end up choosing. In the case of a child the inherited system allows the kid get a feel for what their parent is doing which allows them to then decide if that's something they'd like or they can choose their own path in life and do whatever they'd like without being tied down.
Titles also work to allow you to quickly identify people who know tools without picking up a bunch of random objects sort of how the + system works right now. "Oh this guy is a Lumberjack, he can help restart the fire! Oh, this person is a smith I can ask them to make me a shovel."

Thanks for the clarification. I was a bit confused on how it would work in practice.

Wuatduhf · 2020-02-24 13:36:00

I like professions, but I think they should be tied into Hierarchies, and should be assigned by a Leader within the Hierarchy.

This post is kinda paralel to what I was proposing in the Hierarchies thread, to be honest. I'll copy that segment over to here:

Wuatduhf wrote:

Job Titles
Leaders can give players Job Titles. "I DUB [PLAYER NAME] JOB" gives the player one Job Title until death. A Baron can make Lord Bob Wilson become Lord Chef Bob Wilson."
Job Titles immediately Learn tools for the player that are associated with that title (ideally customizable in the server config).
CHEF would include Adobe Hot Oven, Hot Coals, and Knife
DOCTOR - Needle & Thread, Medical Pads, and Knife
FARMER - Skewer, Stone Hoe, and Steel Hoe
etc.

The tool slots are, of course, free.

Lava · 2020-02-24 18:51:40

Fr tho I hope he expands on the tech tree and not this imo we need something desperately.

Spoonwood · 2020-02-24 20:00:12

So here we have an idea which validates the whole premise of tool limitations. Jason likely reads something like this and believes even more that he made a good call by making players less capable.

No, things don't get more realistic this way, because tool limitations aren't realistic to begin with. It doesn't hold for us that we can only learn so many tools in life by some arbitrary number, nor would it hold in the future for people trying to re-build civilization from scratch. Real-world professions arose because professionals could be more efficient and produce products of better quality.

And though some people might like such limitations which reduce them to a dependent state, gamers in general don't want to feel forced into some particular slot. In general, they want to feel empowered.

Weightlifters do use one arm to lift a heavy object when they could use two, but it's not done because of the restriction, but because it pushes that one arm into becoming stronger, and that one arm becoming stronger is what they are after. Tool restrictions haven't empowered players individually, nor have they empowered players collectively, because it's simply not the case that more has gotten done by constructive players collectively, because they've been around.

Suggestions for improvements aren't likely at all to change things. And even if they do, so what? Why have you tolerated more dependency for yourself in game and for others in game also? You'll probably need to stop playing or try to get others not to play for any serious change to happen.

fug · 2020-02-25 05:02:06

Wuatduhf wrote:

I like professions, but I think they should be tied into Hierarchies, and should be assigned by a Leader within the Hierarchy.
This post is kinda paralel to what I was proposing in the Hierarchies thread, to be honest. I'll copy that segment over to here:
Wuatduhf wrote:
Job Titles
Leaders can give players Job Titles. "I DUB [PLAYER NAME] JOB" gives the player one Job Title until death. A Baron can make Lord Bob Wilson become Lord Chef Bob Wilson."
Job Titles immediately Learn tools for the player that are associated with that title (ideally customizable in the server config).
CHEF would include Adobe Hot Oven, Hot Coals, and Knife
DOCTOR - Needle & Thread, Medical Pads, and Knife
FARMER - Skewer, Stone Hoe, and Steel Hoe
etc.
The tool slots are, of course, free.

My issue with this being related to the hierarchy system is then it becomes the parents choice in what you do as this is basically how the system works right now. Having to basically follow someone and have them change your title because your mom decided to be a dick or new would be annoying. You're an explorer now son, go get rubber now! Is ginger so this clashes with skill set. I'd much rather the system be based off the players choice which means unless you're specifically picking a bad title that reflects poorly on you instead of being forced on you.

Lava wrote:

Fr tho I hope he expands on the tech tree and not this imo we need something desperately.

Still got a month of bug fixes+ and we already know he's eventually going to be readjusting tool slots hence why this thread was made now instead of later.

Last edited by fug (2020-02-25 05:03:04)

jasonrohrer · 2020-02-25 21:12:02

This is interesting for the mechanical reasons that you specify (to help out as a kid without wasting tool slots or prematurely committing).

However, I generally shy away from "authorship heavy" solutions like this, and instead look for more "atomic" type solutions. By authorship-heavy, I mean that I would be defining these roles and giving them names, instead of giving players a new atom to play with and see what they do with it.

The existing tool slots are an example of an atomic system. I didn't make any assumptions about how players would use it. I just marked a few dozen things as tools and set a slot limitation. All the tools are equal atoms.

Maybe there is an emergent "smith" tool set that players are building on a regular basis, and it's obvious to them who the smith in the village is based on this tool set. If so, great!

But if I were to go in there and try to codify this manually, we'd go from something dynamic, emergent, and robust to something static, pre-defined, and fragile.

I've seen loads of suggestions like this for authored roles or titles. So this kind of game design apparently does appeal to a lot of people. It's really just not my style.

Now, we may still be able to discover something valuable here about a fundamental mechanical problem (picking tools to learn as a child before you have enough information needed to make such a permanent decision?).

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2020-02-23 04:37:53

Family professions.

#2 2020-02-23 05:27:17

Re: Family professions.

#3 2020-02-23 05:59:53

Re: Family professions.

#4 2020-02-23 06:44:05

Re: Family professions.

#5 2020-02-23 09:50:51

Re: Family professions.

#6 2020-02-23 15:23:44

Re: Family professions.

#7 2020-02-23 15:41:59

Re: Family professions.

#8 2020-02-23 18:50:46

Re: Family professions.

#9 2020-02-23 20:04:23

Re: Family professions.

#10 2020-02-23 21:06:06

Re: Family professions.

#11 2020-02-23 23:05:43

Re: Family professions.

#12 2020-02-23 23:18:51

Re: Family professions.

#13 2020-02-23 23:28:36

Re: Family professions.

#14 2020-02-24 00:23:13

Re: Family professions.

#15 2020-02-24 00:23:38

Re: Family professions.

#16 2020-02-24 00:34:48

Re: Family professions.

#17 2020-02-24 00:45:16

Re: Family professions.

#18 2020-02-24 03:59:18

Re: Family professions.

#19 2020-02-24 04:15:32

Re: Family professions.

#20 2020-02-24 07:37:56

Re: Family professions.

#21 2020-02-24 13:36:00

Re: Family professions.

Job Titles

#22 2020-02-24 18:51:40

Re: Family professions.

#23 2020-02-24 20:00:12

Re: Family professions.

#24 2020-02-25 05:02:06

Re: Family professions.

Job Titles

#25 2020-02-25 21:12:02

Re: Family professions.

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