Checking the content for this week

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-04 02:20:42

https://edge.onetech.info/versions

Small content change, but a huge change to the game.

Springs are the only places where you can dig wells. You can no longer dig a well on a dry pond.

Springs are spread evenly on the map, on "fault lines" that are 40 tiles apart in both X and Y directions. The horizontal fault lines are visible on the map, but the vertical ones are not. So it's easy to find a spring. Walk N/S to the nearest fault-line, and then walk E/W along that line until you come to a spring.

Springs can occur in all biomes but desert and polar.

Ponds are unchanged (except that dry ponds cannot make wells.

The idea here is that ponds can be used to bootstrap, but they'll eventually run out, and someone needs to find a good well site before that happens and move the village over there. Or Eve can look for an ideal place near ponds and a future well site.

But the spring cannot provide water without digging, which means you need steel first.

Next big change:

Both Newcomen pumps have a 1/20 chance of exhausting permanently after each use. After they exhaust, they can be taken down, and a diesel pump can be installed on the same spot.

There is currently no direct upgrade path from Newcomen to Diesel BEFORE it exhausts. Not sure what to do about that. S It's easy enough to have the diesel engine ready to go for when the pump exhausts, though.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 02:30:23

jasonrohrer wrote:

There is currently no direct upgrade path from Newcomen to Diesel BEFORE it exhausts. Not sure what to do about that.

Change cars and airplanes so that they require a completely different engine. I guess that's some work, but I think that would prevent the problem of diesel engines for water pumps getting yoinked for tech that the village can't afford.

I mean an unused engine laying around isn't a problem if it stays there... it's clutter but only once space. If it gets put onto a car when a town needs a diesel water pump though, that sounds awful.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-04 02:32:36)

futurebird · 2019-05-04 02:49:13

Will the empty ponds despawn or could we dig them for clay or something?

(they are kinda ugly)

Last edited by futurebird (2019-05-04 02:50:01)

futurebird · 2019-05-04 02:51:18

Will empty ponds still slowly refill?

Potjeh · 2019-05-04 02:57:50

Spoonwood wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
There is currently no direct upgrade path from Newcomen to Diesel BEFORE it exhausts. Not sure what to do about that.
Change cars and airplanes so that they require a completely different engine. I guess that's some work, but I think that would prevent the problem of diesel engines for water pumps getting yoinked for tech that the village can't afford.
I mean an unused engine laying around isn't a problem if it stays there... it's clutter but only once space. If it gets put onto a car when a town needs a diesel water pump though, that sounds awful.

Or change it so you turn engine to pump before you add it to a well. Just add pump valve to completed engine to turn it into a pump.

Tarr · 2019-05-04 03:03:01

futurebird wrote:

Will empty ponds still slowly refill?

One charge per 12 minutes.

Wuatduhf · 2019-05-04 03:20:57

jasonrohrer wrote:

https://edge.onetech.info/versions
Both Newcomen pumps have a 1/20 chance of exhausting permanently after each use. After they exhaust, they can be taken down, and a diesel pump can be installed on the same spot.

...Can there at least be a minimum amount of uses before this is possible for the Newcomen Pump? Since it's a structure instead of a tool, maybe it changes from a regular "Dry Newcomen Pump" and 5% chance to become a "Drying Newcomen Pump" and then another 5% chance to become "Exhausted Newcomen Pump"?

Also, I submitted a request on the Github for an inconsistency w/ the Newcomen Pump destroying the Stanchion, while Diesel pump returns your Stanchion Kit used.

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeData7/issues/286

Last edited by Wuatduhf (2019-05-04 03:22:02)

Bob 101 · 2019-05-04 03:22:09

So kerosene/diesel tech is essential now. Imagine if the pump exhausted on the first use...
Pumped water will need to be used carefully which will hopefully kill off towns with oversized farms.

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-05-04 03:37:23)

BladeWoods · 2019-05-04 03:47:42

Wasn't the whole idea of gridding the water supply so that you can control the difficulty of water, but a 1/20 chance to exhaust the newcomen pumps means huge variability in difficulty. Would be extremely difficult if the pumps exhaust after only a few uses, and would be very easy if it takes a hundred uses to exhaust. Seems like a huge problem.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 04:31:00

Potjeh wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:
There is currently no direct upgrade path from Newcomen to Diesel BEFORE it exhausts. Not sure what to do about that.
Change cars and airplanes so that they require a completely different engine. I guess that's some work, but I think that would prevent the problem of diesel engines for water pumps getting yoinked for tech that the village can't afford.
I mean an unused engine laying around isn't a problem if it stays there... it's clutter but only once space. If it gets put onto a car when a town needs a diesel water pump though, that sounds awful.
Or change it so you turn engine to pump before you add it to a well. Just add pump valve to completed engine to turn it into a pump.

Are you making a suggestion to Jason or suggesting something that I do in game? Right now you add the pump valve to the well, and then put the same diesel engine onto the well that you would put onto an unpowered crude car. So I guess, you're making a suggestion to Jason?

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 04:32:01

Wuatduhf wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
https://edge.onetech.info/versions
Both Newcomen pumps have a 1/20 chance of exhausting permanently after each use. After they exhaust, they can be taken down, and a diesel pump can be installed on the same spot.
...Can there at least be a minimum amount of uses before this is possible for the Newcomen Pump? Since it's a structure instead of a tool, maybe it changes from a regular "Dry Newcomen Pump" and 5% chance to become a "Drying Newcomen Pump" and then another 5% chance to become "Exhausted Newcomen Pump"?

I second this idea.

Dodge · 2019-05-04 04:35:38

Cant remove pump valve from dry well https://edge.onetech.info/664-Dry-Shallow-Well, could be used to grief the only well and make it unable to put a newcomen pump.

Also you can turn a https://edge.onetech.info/2234-Wet-Newcomen-Pump into kerosene pump, if the village has no oil then it is unable to use the new pump and will die out

This is maybe intended but the https://edge.onetech.info/3032-Exhausted-Newcomen-Pump cant be turned into kerosene pump

Currently kerosene pump is only a griefing tool (put a wick burner on the newcomen and village without oil dies) maybe it could be used when a village has oil but no diesel engine yet, so a village with an https://edge.onetech.info/3032-Exhausted-Newcomen-Pump could turn into kerosene and rush oil to try to save the village, probability could be reduced to 1/10 for the charcoal pump and it couldnt be dismantled and need to upgrade to kerosene.

JackTreehorn · 2019-05-04 06:02:49

https://edge.onetech.info/664-Dry-Shallow-Well - There is a problem with refilling these with bowls of water. I always see new players trying to refill the well with bowls but end up wasting the water because the dry shallow well can only hold one bowl of water and any additional water is wasted.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-04 06:14:17

Yeah, not sure what to do about the 1/20 chance.

The problem is that the "uses" are already being used to track number of buckets removed from the full pump basin.

Each object only has one use counter.

In this case, we'd want to track, say, 20 uses before the pump became fully exhausted. And each of those 20 uses give 5 buckets of water.

But the engine doesn't support "nested" use tracking like that, and I'm not sure how to add it.

I could manually "tier" it with a bit of extra duplication. Maybe I really need to do at least one tier, so at least you have some warning before the pump fails. But that's quite a bit of extra work, and makes the whole thing more fragile and bug-prone (content bugs where it gets complicated and hard to reason about, and I'm likely to forget something). So I'm going to leave it at a straight 1/20 chance for now, and see how it feels.

Remember: because the pump tower can be easily taken apart after exhaustion, there's nothing lost. No "hard work" lost in making the parts. They can be moved elsewhere. And I think that would probably be a pretty dramatic and interesting thing that will happen to some villages. You get unlucky. You picked a bad spot. It happens. 1/20 villages will encounter failure the first time they run their new pump. And they'll have to move 40 tiles away to survive.

I fixed the thing where the diesel pump valve destroys the well if you don't have the engine ready yet (you can easily remove it now).

Also fixed it so that kerosene burner can be removed whenever you want.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-04 06:15:53

Yeah, Newcomen and Kero use the same "pump tech," so kero doesn't go deeper. It is way more efficient, however. But kero can't save your well after it exhausts.

JackTreehorn: I don't think that's true. Yes, on the "last use," you get exactly one water back, and you can put exactly one water back in to get there. But the number of water you got out to get to "last use" is random. Same with the amount of water you need to put back in to get up above "last use". So it averages out. There's no water lost on average when pouring water back into the well (sometimes it's lost, sometimes gained).

As for why we allow pouring back into the well or pond at all? Not sure.... I guess sometimes you need the bowl for other things.

Dodge · 2019-05-04 06:29:30

1/10 chance to go to partially exhausted? then an other tier for exhausted deep well

Last edited by Dodge (2019-05-04 06:30:07)

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-04 08:04:59

Adding a kerosene wick burner to any newcomen machine turns it into a pump.

For example: newcomen lathe + kerosene wick burner = dry kerosene newcomen pump.

https://edge.onetech.info/2348-Kerosene-Wick-Burner

pein · 2019-05-04 09:12:25

grid lien will make cities generic

if it's a distinct visible line, people will follow it
the eve always runs EW
the line will be used as main road
the farms will be under or top of it
the horizontal or box shape biomes will be better than the amorf shaped
each city will feel more generic
running with a horse you will see a lot of those lines

Dodge · 2019-05-04 09:25:38

Spoonwood wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
There is currently no direct upgrade path from Newcomen to Diesel BEFORE it exhausts. Not sure what to do about that.
Change cars and airplanes so that they require a completely different engine. I guess that's some work, but I think that would prevent the problem of diesel engines for water pumps getting yoinked for tech that the village can't afford.
I mean an unused engine laying around isn't a problem if it stays there... it's clutter but only once space. If it gets put onto a car when a town needs a diesel water pump though, that sounds awful.

Would be much easier to be able to remove the engine from a car...

Morti · 2019-05-04 09:51:55

Ah, so this is what the variance thread was about... hmm

I quit playing the game for awhile after the biome temperature change. Knowing youa re going to do these things ahead of time is one thing, but having these changes occur out of the blue, as I suspect most people are going to experience it, is quite frustrating.

This is one of those examples of times where I suggested (via email) that you be more subtle, and make it a gradual transition, rather than a sharp, sudden change, that always seems to drives more people away, than towards, the game.

Please, before you do this change, or any like it, consider a way to make this a transition, not a sudden shock.

Your process for these sorts of things tends to go like this:

think
think
think
think
big change

instead it should be more like:

think about big change
think
small change
think
small change
think
small change

For this example, I suggest the ponds become less and less effective each week over the course of a month, while the springs become more and more effective.

Please Jason, gradual changes, for the sake of the community.

Sure, it'll be nice if you stick to all the big, wild changes, and in the end you are left with 5 loyal players who enjoy your experiments, then you can name them all in a list of friends when you are talking to people who complain about your next game, but man, you have a great concept right here in One Hour One Life. Don't tarnish the game's future place in history for the sake of your own, personal, experiments with game mechanics.

Maybe make a test server, and make knowledge of it public, so people can go there, experiment, and then come back to the community and share their findings, or, be the heralds of changes to come, for their own little niches of the community.

Otherwise, all it takes is for the most vocal member of that niche, to say "Fuck this, I don't like this game anymore, I'm going to play X" and then those people in that community all migrate away from the game to X, or, worse, drift apart, to other communities, or worse worse, away from game communities in general.

I suspect you've got the best parenting game on the market right now. This whole aspect of the game is dependent on the population being here. Please, don't turn more of them away with big, fundamental changes to the game's other mechanics, that people have learned and enjoy, at least, not with big, sudden overhauls, as I suspect this is going to otherwise be.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-04 10:06:05

Small changes are boring. I believe the game to be more exciting this way.

Morti · 2019-05-04 12:20:06

FeignedSanity wrote:

Small changes are boring. I believe the game to be more exciting this way.

Exciting... yeah, there is not enough EXCITEMENT in games.
We need more EXCITEMENT in parenting games.
More EXCITEMENT in city builders.
More EXCITEMENT in crafting games.

Right.

We're here for the EXCITEMENT!

futurebird · 2019-05-04 12:28:49

This change isn't THAT big. I'm mostly excited. I do think the idea of making it so you can (in game) modify a diesel engine so it can only be used as a pump and not a car. Is important. I don't want to make an engine "for the town's future" and some jerk drives it off and then gets eaten by a bear and the car can't be found.

This will force some of us to learn some of the higher tech. I think it makes kerosine pumps kinda pointless...

Amon · 2019-05-04 13:03:21

I like it, won't be able to play with it yet.

didn't make sense to upgrade ponds in the first place.

Sukallinen · 2019-05-04 13:28:09

...lots of cutting all over...

Morti wrote:

Please, before you do this change, or any like it, consider a way to make this a transition, not a sudden shock.

I think each change takes almost the same amount of time to code-install-bugfix, so for progress there needs to be sudden change, sad.

Morti wrote:

Maybe make a test server

If that is feasible, the people trying on that server would help in bigserver2 (and provide bugreports) so it would almost have the same effect as the good gradual change you suggest since there would be people who know and help in each sudden transition. IDK about clientside changing, then test-population would be smaller I imagine.

Morti wrote:

I suspect you've got the best parenting game on the market right now.

Absolutely think so too. And one that parents feel mostly comfortable for their kids to play.

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