Barbarian Bear Style Unit (hoards)

forman · 2021-07-16 11:56:03

I think what OHOL needs is a new mob functionally the same as bears that spawn in greater and greater numbers, chasing the families west.

This is very easy to do and would basically require one new graphic 'Barbarian' -- or even Bear-barian (a human graphic with a bear hat/clothes).

Bearbarian caves spawn -- maybe just out of normal bear caves, then they continuously spawn bearbarian mobs relative to total player number/family depth/tech level

I'd say they should move toward either fire or food and then just slowly overrun towns.

This is a very simple mechanic that creates a lot of gameplay and is extendable in a variety of ways.

Consider, for example, builders will have to design to better keep out the mobs, weapons will be more important etc.

This also solves the migration problem because overrun towns will eventually be unusable, forcing families west.

wondible · 2021-07-16 12:54:19

Once upon a time you could be barbarian, and solve it yourself. Nowadays all you could do is the kill the sheep, and get cursed to donkeytown for it.

DestinyCall · 2021-07-16 13:23:59

From a technical standpoint, it feels like a constantly expanding horde of barbarians would inevitably lead to server lag.

From a gameplay standpoint, the combat and AI systems in this game are rather painfully underdeveloped. I suspect the barbarians would either end up being too weak and easy to wipe out immediately at any tech level or too powerful and quickly over-run every town.

All that being said, I would like to see more PvE threats, like dynamic mobs, weather or natural disasters. It would just be really important to balance implementation in a meaningful way, so this game doesn't become a "running away from bears" simulator.

DestinyCall · 2021-07-16 13:36:28

Also, if we are going to implement a horde mechanic OHOL that slowly but inevitably overwhelms our civilization ... shouldn't it be zombies?

All those unburied skeletons, rising up to exact revenge on the living. If only we had made a proper place of rest for our dead. If only ...

forman · 2021-07-16 15:15:01

DestinyCall wrote:

shouldn't it be zombies?

Zombies would be legit -- my point was to make it as easy as possible to implement tho. Bears and people already exists so merging them is fairly easy.

Also jason may not want zombies in his realistic-ish simulator

DestinyCall wrote:

would inevitably lead to server lag?

It would depend on how many are needed to overwhelm, but generally, no. Just think about a big sheep pen except bears. Things also aren't loaded when nobody is there like mouflon.

DestinyCall wrote:

I suspect the barbarians would either end up being too weak and easy to wipe out immediately at any tech level or too powerful and quickly over-run every town.

With any simulator, you have to figure out these numbers. I've had bear griefers bring so many that it was difficult, multiply that by two or three and it would be near impossible.

If people can manage to survive that's fine, but the point is that the waves just keep growing in number until you can't.

DestinyCall wrote:

From a gameplay standpoint, the combat and AI systems in this game are rather painfully underdeveloped.

Yes but this would be great opportunity to improve. Imagine building a full suit of armor that could absorb damage and took as long to make as a truck.

I think a few small tweaks would vastly improve the combat:

1) everything attacks adjacent tiles rather than on top of -- for players. this could be a simple one key swing or hold shift and click for swing after initiating hostile action
2) arrows auto target and just have miss rolls (improved with better bows and arrows?)

basically just think old school zelda -- this stuff in not particularly hard to code especially if its minimalistic

forman · 2021-07-16 15:32:15

As an addendum, consider the looting aspect: Going back to steal some nice pieces of tech would involve dodging through the hoard.

Similarly, if a family died, and you wanted to re-take the town, you'd have to kill them all. This would of course reset the spawn rate because it is based on family line number.

I also think the bearbarians should be able to damage/destroy walls. This would greatly expand the building gameplay because now you are designing a fortress as well as a home.

Gremlynn · 2021-07-16 15:47:15

At first i was sceptical about this idea, but after thinking about it for a while i quite like it. Obviously it could pose an issue if griefers take advantage of them but that happens anyway with bears. Plus I don't imagine the barbarians or etc would take 3 arrows to take out. The thing i find most appealing about this would be the revival of walled cities. Walled cities have basically been dead content since the rift days and it used to be an important job to build them. It would be nice to see them return.

Last edited by Gremlynn (2021-07-16 18:36:44)

jinbaili83 · 2021-07-16 17:23:33

I'm sorry to say that but any combat in this game will just fail.
Viewing distance is too small (5x9 tiles) .
No hit points.
No support for projectiles like in shooting games.
It would be just easier to start game development from zero.

Gremlynn · 2021-07-16 18:35:12

jinbaili83 wrote:

I'm sorry to say that but any combat in this game will just fail.
Viewing distance is too small (5x9 tiles) .
No hit points.
No support for projectiles like in shooting games.
It would be just easier to start game development from zero.

Yea very true. Hopefully someone takes this game concept and develops it in something like unreal engine. As far as i know everything that is lacking or not stable in this engine could be easily done in a developed engine like unreal. Great concept for a game but it has so many holes that limit its potential.

fug · 2021-07-16 22:43:43

I think it would be better to encourage player v player conflict instead of random broken NPC causing issues.

What if we just did the inverse of what we currently have? What if instead of families being stuck to a certain biome you had families claim biomes? Give each family access to the materials but families who don't own the biome get inferior items?

Your family claims the badlands so you get iron from your iron veins. Anyone else visiting a badlands gets copper and is stuck with lower quality tools and thus are either encouraged to try to trade their resource for your better resource OR maybe instead of doing it peaceful attempt to kill off your lineage in a way to lay claim to the badlands themselves. This at least makes sense on why you would ever kill a family as a similar thing would occur with bell towns + war swords. Bell gets rang > raider raze the town of its people > raiders claim town (not that it was viable due to area blocking.)

The issue I see with this though is that when a new Eve would spawn the potential to be locked out of everything being stuck with the crappy alternatives either has to ask for handouts or form a tribe of savages to take over a small city which might at least make for interesting stories. Also, too much content work to basically double the items to insert copper tools and inferior versions of oil, rubber, etc.

Gremlynn · 2021-07-17 02:28:33

Ooo i really like that idea tarr.

The eve spawn problem could probably be solved by removing banding. Then families could spread out towards virgin land. That said there will always be issues trying to explain these mechanics to new and unfamiliar players.

fug · 2021-07-17 03:11:01

In a system where there's a potential for one family to have multiple nodes, this gives a reason for families to spread out vs one mega city. Imagine needing X amount of players in an area to "defend" a family node. A long lasting family will have one normal town + multiple satellite villages which work to claim other resources which allows pseudo eves a real purpose (which is something Jason removed). This would allow us to return to new towns with old families which was removed with Iron only spawning to the main Eve or first person to make a well.

I think this sort of play enables all the sorts of players whether we agree with them or not. People who want to "troll" are enabled by giving them valid targets (small villages or attempts to claim under populated villages). People who want to explore are enabled to look for unclaimed areas or are incentivized to look for low population villages. Socializers have the incentive to try to barter with others, and everyone else can either work towards their own village growing, or growing the server cities.

Basically, working to give a reason to pvp, a reason to work together, and a reason to play.

Gremlynn · 2021-07-17 04:05:38

Honestly its a genius idea. The more i think about it the better it sounds. Hopefully it finds its way into jason's ear.

forman · 2021-07-17 07:42:06

Come to think of it, the ultimate problem is just water.

But what I'm suggesting, essentially, is that wells should never run out and hostile mobs should be the reason a town moves.

Consider, like an arcade game, there is an actual incentive to 'go down fighting' for your town, or revisit to loot or whatever.

Once you hit rubber drill, a town is basically just beating a dead horse and moving due to water shortage is super anti climactic.

Far as the combat engine -- no, it does not need to be rebuilt. A lot of people seem to have a grandiose concept of what a combat engine should be.

With all the bells and whistles, it's a ton of work but a minimalist engine is really trivial -- basically just dice rolls.

You track hp, armor or evade, distance between agents, make arrows auto hit/miss with basic pathfinding. It's super easy.

And for the purposes of this game, that is good enough.

I've always preferred simple combat engines anyways, when things get too heavy they often turn out not great (like skyrim) or just distract from gameplay.

Something like this could potentially work with pvp but I would suggest the zones prevent other tribes from picking up objects or building things.

The way it is now, pvp is just griefing -- bring 500 bears, take all the bowls and eat the berries, kill the sheep.

If that's something you enjoy doing or having done to you, you need clinical help.

Last edited by forman (2021-07-17 07:51:33)

DestinyCall · 2021-07-17 16:00:33

With respect to the idea of "claiming" biomes, I'm curious how this would work from a mechanical perspective. Would it be a text command, like "I own this" or would it require something more defined, like building a "totem" that symbolizes your ownership and identifies the tribe that has laid claim to that area? If there is a physical object that represents your claim, that would also introduce the possibility of someone destroying your tribe's totem and building their own, if they want to claim that area for themselves. And it would encourage people to build totems in areas that can be protected or defended in some way, like in the middle of town or behind a fence or wall. This could add an element of property ownership to the land claims and would give a focal point for wars. You wouldn't need to wipe out the other family to gain access to an important biome, just reach their totem and destroy it. This would allow one side to "win" the war, yet might still leaves survivors from the other tribe, especially if some of them fled from the village to protect themselves or their children.

Unfortunately, I don't really see how "biome claiming" would really work on an infinite map with infinite miles of open space. If a tribe has claimed the closest patch of tundra, you can just walk away and find another one. If one tribe can claim all the tundra in existence, that seems a bit excessive and we are right back to the same old problem of the "tundra tribe" being three thousand tiles away from your current location. Reaching that tribe to destroy their totem or trade for resources would be damn near impossible. So you would either not have access to tundra resources at all (if biome specialization works the same as currently) or only to the inferior resource options, with no reasonable alternative.

fug · 2021-07-17 17:57:02

Have everything start out as the basic node so everyone (at least at reset) as a chance to claim it then have the first person to jump whatever hoop to upgrade the node gets ownership. Have the upgraded resource tap out a rather large area just how iron veins/oil/wells works.

So lets say for iron as an example: Map starts with undiscovered mine - This would give copper and maybe other materials. Every family can collect resources from this type of mine but the tools made from it are much lower durability. First family to collect X amount of bronze to cause it to transition would then tap out all the undiscovered mine nodes into copper veins. Maybe ownership can be passed by having other families interact with the upgraded node in a sort of king of the hill type style? This like you've stated gives a reason to have fences around the area instead of letting just anyone come over. Or maybe people decide to trade specializations around which could be interesting as well.

To combat people being too far to trade the inferior versions of biome specialization items should either be harsher time gated which means you're going further and further to collect sulfur/latex or maybe it has a fail chance. Lesser variants of sulfur pits would refill sulfur at a much slower rate, rubber trees both take longer to grow and have a chance to die as your family isn't specialized in growing them. Basically, everyone can do everything but some people are either more talented in said area or blessed with better resources.

Also, talking distance put horses in every biome instead of just the desert. Expecting people to try to trade without ability to either safely travel or travel in a timely fashion is not helping anyone. Overall, I really think transportation in the game needs looked at and shouldn't have such crazy jumps in utility. Introduce a higher tier easy to produce object for general movement - I'm thinking something like a bicycle for players to use for basic movement and travel. Slap the bad boy with 200% movement speed and up the speed for horses to like 300%. Revisit the plane and give it the delivery truck/race car treatment. Instead of wasting the fuel on landing have it continued to be fueled unless you explicitly waste the gas driving around. Having a quick way to move from town to town for quick trades would be nice. It just seems like the plane never truly got its time to shine besides for breaking mechanics.

Gremlynn · 2021-07-17 18:22:03

On the subject of the map being unlimited. The system fug suggests would work beautifully in an enclosed system. Nothing as small as the rift, but maybe something in the range of 3-10k square. 10k would be more than enough space to spread out and feel infinite without the drawbacks of it being.. ya know.. infinite.

Infinite map is a cool idea but i think its pretty clear its failing about as hard as the rift. At least we knew what was wrong with the rift, it was tooooo small. The current system has so many holes leaking and by the time they get "patched" it will look like a completely different boat from the one we started with. Sink er and get a new boat i say.

Last edited by Gremlynn (2021-07-17 18:22:59)

pein · 2021-07-17 19:45:07

i suggested similar long ago
the issue is that there is no city defined, there are rules on birth and nearby females, and family rules, if they are in the same spot, but everything just makes it worse not staying together
plus if its the main part of the game, it has to be balanced

jason somewhy just likes reducing resources and hyping up how big the map is, actually there is no reason for the map to be so big when everything looks the same

i would prefer an unlocking mechanic, that you have zones for your family and you can extend it if you work for it
so the map could be more dense but slower harvesting early and technologies to speed it up, that would feel more like civilization building

and the randomness of having more space or more of one resources would make the game more replayable.

the fights could happen in another format too, like the city would be a dot on map and nearby dots declare war on you, and you got a separate layer of map with different rulesets, if you win, you could get that map part where they attacked from and extend the base

Gremlynn · 2021-07-17 22:36:37

Perhaps the homeland system could be Frankensteined into a territory system. I mean for gods sake they could be squares we take over. Same map pattern but a specific biome in each. A family ignites a totem and the plot is theirs. Other families cant have kids there or use the biomes. Biomes cant be accessed without igniting the totem, or maybe not that could be stupid. But that would make the fight over territory more interesting. It would also make for some interesting cold war tactics between families.

QuirkySmirkyIan · 2021-07-19 21:55:57

No thanks not for my precious farmville online.

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#1 2021-07-16 11:56:03

Barbarian Bear Style Unit (hoards)

#2 2021-07-16 12:54:19

Re: Barbarian Bear Style Unit (hoards)

#3 2021-07-16 13:23:59

Re: Barbarian Bear Style Unit (hoards)

#4 2021-07-16 13:36:28

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#5 2021-07-16 15:15:01

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#6 2021-07-16 15:32:15

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#7 2021-07-16 15:47:15

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#8 2021-07-16 17:23:33

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#9 2021-07-16 18:35:12

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#10 2021-07-16 22:43:43

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#11 2021-07-17 02:28:33

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#12 2021-07-17 03:11:01

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#13 2021-07-17 04:05:38

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#14 2021-07-17 07:42:06

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#15 2021-07-17 16:00:33

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#16 2021-07-17 17:57:02

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#17 2021-07-17 18:22:03

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#19 2021-07-17 22:36:37

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#20 2021-07-19 21:55:57

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