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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 Re: Main Forum » Hierarchies » 2019-12-11 22:05:04

Gogo wrote:

What if two rulers became bad and start working together for fun, how to overthrown them?

Its not about being bad or good. Its about preventing abuse by griefers. Having two griefers ending up as leader is totally unlikely.

Kinrany wrote:

Um, how exactly is a flat hierarchy better?

Its not better. I just would suggest to first implement a flat hierarchy, check out how it works out in practice, and think about more complicated systems afterwards.

Kinrany wrote:

And exiling everyone is completely useless since only the griefer will see everyone as exiles. She'll get lynched, and the dukes will choose a new king.

Having only one leader means he can misuse his power as he wants. As the whole thing does not really have power, this might not be that horrible at all. But the consequences are, that you have to "re-found" the tribe (in your system that would mean, everyone has to follow a new leader).
Beside that, I just suggest to add the possibility to have multiple leaders, but every village could decide for itself. It would make thinks more save, if other special leader abilities are added later. But I don't really have a problem with the idea of only one leader neither.

#2 Re: Main Forum » Hierarchies » 2019-12-11 19:23:21

In general I like the idea. But:

- having a tree (aka one leader per induced subtree) is dangerous. As soon as a griefer becomes leader, he can abuse this power. How to prevent that? As many people here already said, there is just not enough time to build up trust. One griefer could just behave friendly until getting the crown and then exile everyone

- having a hierarchy is nice, because it gives bell towers a new perspective to form a kingdom or empire. But maybe this is a second step. For the moment, we might just need a flat hierarchy; the system could be extended to a hierarchy later.

- as one person with power is always dangerous, I would rather suggest to allow multiple persons to have power. Basically, as much as you like. Every decision has to be done by the majority, so having more leaders makes everything complicated. A town has to decide if they want a single leader, or two, or three and so on.

- furthermore, having multiple leaders do not allow to follow a leader. You have to follow a group or tribe. So there needs to be a system to create new tribes, similar how you name your children (maybe with a list of townnames?). "I name this tribe XYZ". Then people can say "I follow XYZ" or "Im part of XZY". Every leader should be able to announce a heir, who automatically takes over then the leader dies.

- I like the idea of colored speech bubbles. This shows the player when a leader is giving a command. It would be also nice, if leaders have a larger "range" of talking (maybe not global, as suggested in the other thread, but larger than just the screen).

- many people complain about this will end up in unexperienced players bossing other players around. I disagree. It totally depends on how the players want to play the game. There might be towns without a leader at all. Towns, who have a leader just to protect against griefers. And towns, where the leader enforces his power and gives commands.

- actually, I also like the idea of having in-game objects that are necessary to found a tribe. Like somebody mentioned a townhall, or a crown. I'm not exactly sure what it could be, but it would be cool to have some kind of requirement to build a new tribe. That would also prevent that every player is creating his own tribes just for fun.

#3 Re: Main Forum » Jason you have an SID Problem » 2019-12-11 18:27:41

Legs wrote:

Personally, my infant deaths come from hopelessness. I'm born and I immediately see that this place is doomed. Yesterday I was born to see that everyone's naked and there's no well. Not even a spring site. A primitive camp with a small farm fueled by pond water. Any work I do here is pointless.

I don't get that. One could argue it is an refreshing new, interesting start, with a lot of problems to be solved. But sure, its easier to just spawn in a village where everything is working.

arkajalka wrote:

Feel like, everytime im not in a huge bell town or so people just SID in hopes of getting to a town with everything ready. If im nomading stuff from town outskirts-->SID. I damn well can feed my bebe in the wild too, but its just too ez to die and not take the walk.

Same for me. Whenever I'm walking outside the town and get a child, it kills itself instantly. It's so stupid.

I definitely agree that we need less lifes and a slower refill of lifes. But as many commented here, if many players want to play in a certain style but are prevented from doing so, there might be something wrong in the game mechanics.

I could imagine to use the fitness score as in-game currency to:
- refill the life counter
- enforce a spawn as Eve
- enforce a spawn in a particular family

Such that players have to play several games in an old-fashioned way (random start) but can sometimes, if they collect enough fitness points, pay for a customized start.

The fitness score itself should be less random. Maybe it could be extended by some kind of achievement system, that gives the player an increase in fitness score if he builds a well, or a bell tower and so on. Would be also a possibility to introduce other items in the game which only purpose is to increase fitness score.

#4 Re: Main Forum » What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL » 2019-11-30 17:46:44

Spoonwood wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:

"It took us 4000 years to advance from stone-aged tech to the iPhone the first time around.  If we had to start over from scratch, naked in the wilderness, with nothing but rocks and sticks, but we retained all knowledge, how long would it take the second time?"

I already said my opinion about that in the other thread.

Spoonwood wrote:

I agree with you that tool slots do that, though Jason had more goals in mind: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8181

I don't see what else. Communication, leadership, foresight. It goes all more or less in the same direction: a single player cannot run a city alone. 

Spoonwood wrote:

Also, it's not family specializations.  Not as things currently work.  Instead, we have race restrictions.

That's basically the same. You could say, the race is just the visualization of the family specialization.
I agree, that it is questionable/controversial to use the race for that. It's somehow opposed to what we learn and teach nowadays, that there are no human races and different skin colors are not much different than different hair colors. Now the game tell us, just black people can work in the dessert. From an ethical viewpoint this is indeed questionable. For the game mechanics it is of course helpful, if there is a visualization for the trait a family has. Maybe race is just the wrong one.

Let's assume each biome has its own kind of clothes mechanics. That would even work nicely with the climate differences: Ice biome has seal clothes. They are even necessary to survive the harsh conditions there. So you could recognize people specialized on the ice biome on their seal clothes instead of their hair color. Similarly, jungle biome has tatoos. Although, they are currently too hard to craft for most new players. But assuming that jungle is always warm enough such that you don't need clothes. Tatoos could protect against moscitos. The dessert biome might require sun protection by hats or scarfs. Dunno if that is more preferable, but recognizing people on their clothes might be less controversial than recognizing them on their skin color.


Spoonwood wrote:

I don't think a player leaving town for the first time enjoys the dropsy because he's a ginger walking through a desert.  I heard a longtime streamer say the other day that 'traveling isn't fun anymore'.

The dessert, jungle and ice biomes are meant to be too dangerous to crossing them. I think, if we want to have more fun on traveling, we should add more unique elements to the other biomes, instead of making a dessert easy to cross.

Spoonwood wrote:

However, since restrictions get based on race, the specializations not only feel arbitrary, but just aren't plausible.

I think they aren't plausible in any way. Why should they depend on the mother? Knowledge is not genetics.


Just something I found in another thread:

Saolin wrote:

Wine will get made. In late game towns. It's not that bad really, sure it's a lot of steps to get it started, but once you have the glassware you just need to water the grapes to keep making more.

On the race topic, I do find it a bit cumbersome that a lot of biome specific ingredients need to be combined with other biome-specific ingredients. I thought it would be more like one race can complete a certain recipe entirely, and another race can complete another recipe entirely, facilitating an exchange of finished products. But the current way does force more interconnectedness than just everyone in town working by themself to make their own finished product, though a lot of the time it's still like this, gather a bunch of palm kernels and just leave them lying around to be used when someone else needs them.

I totally agree with that. If family specialization should encourage trading, then it would make more sense to let whole recipes depend on a specialization.

#5 Re: Main Forum » Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters » 2019-11-30 17:25:59

You can use any background story that you like, whatever improves the immersion of the game for you. I just say, it is stupid to claim that this is the right one, or that other people have to follow this background story.

#6 Re: Main Forum » Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters » 2019-11-30 13:30:56

"It took us 4000 years to advance from stone-aged tech to the iPhone the first time around.  If we had to start over from scratch, naked in the wilderness, with nothing but rocks and sticks, but we retained all knowledge, how long would it take the second time?"

There is an easy interpretation for that, which does not involve any kind of post-apocalyptic world: WE, the players, know everything about modern tech. By playing a newborn virtual character in this world, we break through the third wall, because we have all this knowledge and we can take over the knowledge across generations. So the experiment apply to us: Would we be able to rebuild civilization from scratch?

I want to stress that many parts of the game are unrealistic and, therefore, count against the idea of a post-apocalyptic or historical setting. For example, that Eve starts from nowhere. That every women can get children without men are involved. That there is no technology research, nor teaching of technology to the next generations. Of course, you could explain everything by some kind of background story. But such a background story is missing. Which means that either it is just not important, because the game is not story driven, or because everyone is free to make his own background story, or maybe Jason just didn't find time for a background story. Who knows.

I just find it strange when people start assuming from nothing that the game has a post-apocalyptic setting, just to then complain about all logical errors in this setting.

Maybe I should now claim that the game has a religious setting - because the first character is called Eve. Poor stupid players who thought its about post-apocalyptic. You just misunderstand the complete game. Ouch. But we should definitely add churches, prophets, messiahs and a burning bush to the game, because its religious, so these elements have to be contained! Hurry up, Jason!

#7 Re: Main Forum » What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL » 2019-11-30 13:21:16

Spoonwood wrote:

There's a new player here...

Yes, I'm new. And still I remember your name, cause I always roll my eyes when reading your posts.

Spoonwood wrote:

...who comments here suggesting that he believes the game a historical simulation, not a futuristic post-apocalyptic imaginative scenario.

No, I didn't. I said that there is no background story in the game. I neither think its post-apocalyptic, nor its a historical simulation (with Eve? Seriously?).

Spoonwood wrote:

I suspect many other people either didn't or don't think about the program as providing a science fiction game context and instead view it as having a historical fiction context.

I don't see any science fiction context. Its not as if we would build a rocket to fly from the planet, as it is the case in Factorio.

Spoonwood wrote:

On top of that, I suspect that lots of people don't know about your "evolve or die" philosophy for the game, or would play in spite of that philosophy.

Okay, here is my opinion about the game: I think the idea behind the game is to build up a civilization, with the challenge, that you only have one hour time to add your contribution to the development of the civilization. Thus, teamwork is the key: not only crafting yourself, but tell people of the next generations what has to be done, what you couldn't finish yourself during your short life. "evolve or die" is part of the game difficulty mechanics: the game shouldn't be too rough, so that people are constantly hungry and dying. On the other hand, there has to be some pressure to force evolution, development and migration. Otherwise, people would reach very fast a stable state where they don't need to do anything for survival. In every developed town I started so far, we had so many food resources that there was no need to do anything. Just the knowledge that resources are finite, was a reason to still develop further, build up some buffer, to increase the chance for future generations to survive.

The current problem of the game is, that it reaches a state of complexity, such that only very few people know how to build up advanced technologies (e.g. newcomen stuff). Furthermore, these few people got extremely efficient at that. So, a village can be run by two or three experienced players, while the other players are basically useless. The limitations like tool slots and family specializations are a way to enforce teamplay. Now, people can't build up an newcomen well themselves anymore. This doesn't mean its not possible. It just involves finding other families who help you. And it slow down everything, so you cannot reach such high tech within a generation. While I can see why some experienced players complain about this changes, I doubt that these players are in the majority, or do represent any majority opinion. Furthermore, everyone can create his own servers for experienced-only players without any limitations.

#8 Re: Main Forum » Lonstanding Problem: Unrealistic Characters » 2019-11-27 21:29:23

Spoonwood wrote:

It's a work of science fiction where the player gets expected to imagine their character in a futuristic post-apocalyptic world.

Is it? I don't see any ruins in the game. Nor any intro explaining that the game plays after some apocalyptic event. It might be one interpretation. Other players might have different interpretations.

The remaining post seems even more nonsense to me. I would say the idea behind tool slots is that you have to learn how to use tools and, thus, cannot master all possible tools. However, the game does not implement any kind of experience system, so it uses tool slots as some game mechanic simplification for it.

#9 Re: Main Forum » Not very accessible for new players » 2019-11-24 15:37:15

Hi,
thanks for the answers.

I now playing for several days (woah, the game is soo addicting) and had many games which were fun and where I found people willing to explain some tasks. So, its not always as bad as in my first few rounds (where people answered the question "how can I help" with "go dying").

I still found, that in 75% of the games there is no communication at all. Sometimes this is really a problem. Once I spawned in a town with a dry well. Somebody was carrying water from another site to the town regularly, but he told nobody where the other well is. Obviously, after he died nobody could bring new water.

However, when I spawn in a town where nobody tells me anything, I now still can do some tasks like composting, farming, hunting rabbits and so on. If I dont know what to do, I just try to create my own clothes (they are always rare anyways).

Maybe the tutorial should cover some of these basic tasks, such that new player can directly help even in cases nobody is there to teach them.

#10 Re: Main Forum » Why build permanent structures vs feed family (Suggestion) » 2019-11-24 15:32:22

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Tho people would abuse it. They would make sheep pens made of only fence gates and just leave them open all the time, it would be weird too.

Not necessarily, if the gate is more expensive to build. Besides that, some people might just build natural fences for the atmosphere and because they are visually more appealing. You don`t  have to enter them that often anyways.

#11 Re: Main Forum » Not very accessible for new players » 2019-11-21 20:47:54

QuirkySmirkyIan wrote:

we were never taught we figured it out ourselves

I would have no problems with that. That's how I like to play games. But obviously, you cannot survive alone. I would be already happy if people tell me what they need. Like for example: "kill some rabbits, make clothes". Then I have an task and can figure out how. And next time I know how and will be faster. But every time you start the game, you start it in a very different village in a very different state and with different needs.

Just an example how ridiculous it is sometimes: Every game I was in a village with a well. Now, again I started in a village where nobody talks and everyone is just doing something, ignoring all new players. So I thought I could help by watering some of the plant fields which where dry. But turned out that there is no well in the village. So I asked around: "where is the well? How can I get water without well?". It is such an easy question, it takes a few seconds to answer. But nobody is answering. I figured it out myself. But it is frustrating, because it seems that this game is not about communication and teamwork at all neutral

#12 Main Forum » Not very accessible for new players » 2019-11-21 20:25:26

kaidu
Replies: 58

Hi,

I bought the game yesterday and really enjoy the idea and concept of the game. However, it is really hard for new players to settle in.

Don't get me wrong: I have no problems reading a bit in the forum, in the wiki and so on. And I did so before starting the game. But this teaches you just the basics. The problem is: People in the game do nothing to help you. If you ask how you can help, you are just insulted as noob. I know, the game is on steam sales and now many new players rush the game. But while I'm new to this game, I'm not stupid. If somebody just explain me what to do, I can figure out the rest myself. And it often takes only a minute to teach new players. If people tell me: "plant carrots!", then I can open the techtree and figure out how to do that. But even this single sentence is often too much. In fact, people rather spend minutes to blame people for being noob, instead of helping.

Blaming somebody for beeing new is stupid anyways. If it is necessary to watch hours of lets play videos before starting the game, you can say that in a  kind way.

But my understanding of the game, based on its mechanics, is that old people are responsible for teaching the new ones. Thats's the reason for old people to be able to write long chat messages. But nobody seem to take care of new players.

It is also a very stupid strategy to do so: if nobody tells new players what to do, they start doing something therself, like taking some tools, standing in the smith, using a bow to hunt animals and accidentally kill other people. Actually, I guess most "griending" is done by new players who just don't know what to do. So spending a few minutes for new players might be a smart strategy to avoid griending.

The problem is also, that people not only expect from you to understand the rules of the game, but also to know the implicit rules. Things that are not part of the game mechanics, but which evolved over time by the community. These things are not written in tutorials. You might learn them when watching lets play videos on youtube. I never watched lets play videos. I find it stupid to watch hours of videos to be "allowed" to play a game. And I find it sad, because the game could be much more fun for everyone, if we would communicate more.

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