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#1 Re: Main Forum » Did anyone do the math on sprinklers and plows? » 2020-07-05 00:22:06


So, an infinite-operation plow and an infinite-operation sprinkler that only stops when you stop having tilled land/sprinkler pipes.

This whole update just feels like a really dumbed-down tech upgrade compared to other tech upgrades (wells/fires)

#2 Re: Main Forum » Did anyone do the math on sprinklers and plows? » 2020-07-04 22:20:36

Twisted wrote:
Wuatduhf wrote:
Arcurus wrote:

what is the efficiency / math of the plow?

Not worth it. Basically one Kerosene = 48 individual clumps of soil at BEST.
And with soil being a 5:1 ratio to water, it's very severely worse.

How did you come to number 48?

With one kerosene you can run the plow 24 times. If you till five rows each time that's already 120 rows, and you can till much more than 5 at a time if you build your farm around using plows.

Based on the Onetech, the moving plow consumes 1 of the 24 uses each time it tills a field. So, 24 fields tilled in total per Kerosene. 48 soil piles. I'm not sure where the 5 fields per each of the 24 uses comes from?

#3 Re: Main Forum » Did anyone do the math on sprinklers and plows? » 2020-07-04 21:07:36

Arcurus wrote:

what is the efficiency / math of the plow?

Not worth it. Basically one Kerosene = 48 individual clumps of soil at BEST.
And with soil being a 5:1 ratio to water, it's very severely worse.

#4 Re: Main Forum » Did anyone do the math on sprinklers and plows? » 2020-07-04 16:25:13

Sure. But think about it.

You could find a big open field somewhere outside of town and plot multiple lines of 24-long fertile soil.

Then you use a single bowl of grains to make them all wheat.

Then you water them one-by-one, ideally 24 rows, moving the pipes one by one per row, so that by the time you're done you've made 500-ish wheat fields.

That town ends up basically being set on Wheat for generations and generations, and all it took was 24 bowls of water and 1 Kerosene use.

#5 Re: Main Forum » Did anyone do the math on sprinklers and plows? » 2020-07-04 15:56:43

sigmen4020 wrote:
Wuatduhf wrote:

Side-note, I don't see how this will remain beyond the next week in current state. The plow needed more uses, but the sprinkler was pretty darn almost-perfect tuned at 6 uses. Maybe it only needed 8.

I personally think it’s balanced enough (honestly they’re maybe still slightly underpowered) right now and would be really underpowered with the initial 6 uses. Sure you could break even without that much trouble. But the sprinklers need to do more than just break even to be worth it, since you could alternatively use that same kerosene to get 4 water buckets from a Diesel well or 8(7) water buckets from a Kerosene pump.

Bruh, why would you use Kerosene to make 40 bowls of water when the Sprinkler can make Kerosene into 360 bowls of water for farming?

#6 Re: Main Forum » Did anyone do the math on sprinklers and plows? » 2020-07-04 15:05:51

Side-note, I don't see how this will remain beyond the next week in current state. The plow needed more uses, but the sprinkler was pretty darn almost-perfect tuned at 6 uses. Maybe it only needed 8.

#7 Re: Main Forum » Did anyone do the math on sprinklers and plows? » 2020-07-04 15:03:36

I did the math the same day the sprinkler content started to appear in the discord. It's somehow hard to explain but maybe my method of explanation is just difficult to understand.

Let's assume each of the 24 "runs" of the sprinkler were utilized to their maximum potential - so, every time you pour in a bowl of water, all the sprinkler pipes attached watered a crop 100% of the time.

For the sprinklers to be "equivalent" to just converting Kerosene into water, and then doing it by-hand, you would need 3 Sprinkler pipes.

Here is a picture that has been repeatedly edited to better convey how 3 pipes is equal (and slightly better) than watering crops by-hand.


And what if you produced 24 Sprinkler pipes, and combined them with the new Plow that can til 24 fields all in a row?


But the sprinklers aren't limited to a pre-defined maximum length. The pipes will keep watering, and passing the water down the line, until there are no more pipes to receive water. Thus, if you were being 100% efficient with all 24 uses of the pipes, You can guarantee a hell of a return-on-investment the longer that the town/village you're in has these built and are in use.

#8 Re: News » Update: Known Homeland » 2020-03-13 10:42:41

Melea wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:

Each family now has a homeland around their well.  The place where the water tastes sweet to them.  A family only feels comfortable enough to have babies in their homeland.  Elsewhere, they are too homesick to breed.

Will a new Eve need to solo through making a shovel and digging a well before she can have children?

Families become restricted to their Home Land after a Shallow Well is upgraded to a Deep Well. Until the family has a Deep Well, they are considered "nomads" and can have babies anywhere.

#9 Re: Main Forum » [Discussion] A look back on "the Property Update" and Trade... » 2020-03-11 14:12:45

pein wrote:

that's why I said that rather having a limit like that, we could have separate maps and allow travel with condition

thing is people don't travel much, live a life in 50x50
travelling isn't fun either so it could be skipped

if the cities would be re-centred around the eve spot and hard-capped or soft capped their size, it would still be okay
the rift wasn't bad for a family, it was bad for all the families, but a limited map would be decent for one single family

then a map seed could be "saved" if the family dies out, and people could go back or delete that map
let's say all players would get 1000 currency and each new player playing on that map would get a share of the pool, then some people earn up the currency, 10000 would allow you an Eve run or revival of a city
If you lived  there before you could get a discounted price, could be some time limits, deadlines, high scores to reach, meet a quota or your family loses and you got to re-buy the map seed

fast travel with no fertility would be interesting, no megacities either and you could just meet up to trade some resources in a civilized manner
it's not a feature that people steal your stuff and run away with it, it's not interesting or fun, we need rules to prevent theft

As it stands right now, the game is eventually at some point going to gain a macro-economy. There are technically resources that cannot be wholly acquired by one single family, so it is reasonable to conclude that, if the game hit a point where multiple Town entities existed, each one would have its own "special commodity" that the others not only need, but cannot self-produce.

The Blacks have Horses, Flat rocks, Rare-minerals, and Glassware. They're probably the most 'fun' to play as, because they are the first ones to have access to Horse speed and Glass storage. They can also self-make gold. That makes them extremely valuable for trading materials.

The Gingers have Saltwater, Fish, Gold, and Oil. They're probably the middle-of-the road in terms of 'fun' to play as, because their tech has been nerfed or is otherwise pretty worthless for trade value. They technically have Gold, but so do Blacks, so that isn't as much an advantage to them.

Whites have language. They never have to worry about who they can chat with.

The Browns have Latex, Bananas, Palm oil, Tattoos, and Peppers. They are, in my opinion, the LEAST rewarding to play as, because of the high demands their resources have on them and the little utility they get as a result. They can only store latex in buckets. Their palms can only be stored in bowls, until they get glass from Blacks. They do get the ability to make Fries and Salsa, but those foods are so rarely prepared that it's neither here nor there. Tattoos are a joke, as they also require Gingers in order to obtain Black Dye.

Despite the fact that Gingers 'appear' to be the worst to play as, the majority of their specialty resources are not restricted by other specialty races. Meanwhile, Browns have the most restrictions on their specialty resources, and have no early-game utility to benefit from. Having such diverse starting positions in how wealthy each group can become, I won't be surprised if the new Home Lands system leads to struggling Browns and Gingers who can't quite adapt to the fact they either get little utility, or a rough biome to benefit from. Meanwhile, Whites and Blacks stand to be the 'stronger' of the races, because one can always communicate with others to trade, while the other has fast transportation and efficient resource storing.

#10 Re: Main Forum » [Discussion] A look back on "the Property Update" and Trade... » 2020-03-11 11:28:19

The_Anabaptist wrote:

Fertility Idols!

Touch the fertility idol and your next child is that race!


That would kinda perpetuate the mega-city nonsense that Jason's currently trying to combat. And uh...while I may have my disagreements about it, I won't disagree that if there's supposed to eventually be Macro-scale trading, the issue with players collectivizing is a serious hindrance to the game's meta-narrative.

#11 Re: Main Forum » [Discussion] A look back on "the Property Update" and Trade... » 2020-03-10 13:21:28

Seeing as the topic of Trade has come up yet again in a new thread, it looks like it's time to give this one a Bump, and even take a look back at how things have changed on this topic in 10 months.

Here's where we were at that time:

Wuatduhf wrote:

In conclusion (or TL;DR for each question's answers)

"Where's Trade?"
- Trade is missing on the macro-scale, due to map generation uniformity of biomes and resources. With enough time, every resource is more easily and readily available to the village that it does not need to interact w/ other villages to get said resources.
- Trade is missing on the micro-scale, due to the indistinguishable boundaries between communal economics & private ownership.

"Where are the stores?"
- Stores are missing on the macro-scale due to resource non-scarcity between higher-tech villages attempting to trade with lower-tech villages (what do low-tier villages have to trade that high-tier villages cannot get easier?).
- Stores are missing on the micro-scale for the same reasons of trade lacking on the micro-scale.

Where's Resource Contention?
- Villages, lineages, and map locations are not permanent enough, but are moving in that direction
- Majority of resources lack opportunity cost, low variety usage limiting debate for how to use said resources
- No geopolitical growth due to "short" lineages unable to take root in a specific location, maintain town(s) population(s)

Where's crime? Where are the sheriffs?
- Crime is currently lumped into 'griefing' due to lack of law enforcement methods to tackle crime differently from griefing.
- Sheriffs/officers do not currently exist due to lack of political establishment/authority, individual vigilantes act as 'law enforcement'

And now let's touch on each of those again, briefly!

"Where's Trade?"
- Trade still doesn't exist despite the addition of Specialty Biomes. Players are currently in a situation where the collectivization of all families is more vital to survival than maintaining separate identities. Micro-scale trading is still heavily out of scope for OHOL, while Macro-trading is always on the precipice, but never getting closer. Jason is still attempting to figure out ways to keep players separate and to force them to trade, but now there are two separate issues to tackle here; we need additional resources to crop up that are both unique, non-uniform, and worth trading for; we also need towns/families to be individualistic again, in order for multiple nationalities to exist. Otherwise, there are no 'entities' on the macro-scale with which can do business with one-another, via the citizens.

"Where are the stores?"
- This is still in the same spot as previously. No one cares for stores because it's anti-communal economy. Stores on the macro-scale are the only recognizable method of the term in OHOL, but without separate Towns/villages that could be considered entities, these are also non-existent.

Where's Resource Contention?
- There are still no rare resources that could be considered unique to one town vs. another. All resources are quite uniform, require a basic amount of time (and maybe skin tones) to acquire. Resources in general do not come with Opportunity-cost, STILL. You know what you're making out of a resource the moment you start gathering it, and aren't simply collecting that resource as part of a greater supply chain.

Where's crime? Where are the sheriffs?
- We still don't have Batons or Guillotines, so that's why. The servers have gone thru a very pain-staking process of phasing out violent conflict from the game between players, because we live in a society. As it turns out, society doesn't need people to enforce the law, just vigilante's that can get enough popular support.

And now for some predictions:
- I believe we're going to start seeing a shift in gameplay, from one multi-cultural town to multiple towns but all inadequately supplied with resources/struggling to get hold of them.
- Griefing inevitably swings to the opposite end of the spectrum, and people start having a difficult time getting rid of the correct griefers as their skills in 'stealth' advance.

#12 Re: Main Forum » your town planning ideas » 2020-03-10 12:47:32

Town planning varies in general. Depending on how 'early' you have access to the location, plus the supplies needed to terraform it to 'your' preferences, there's not a lot of difficulty in making a town adopt features that you'd want it to have.

Over the course of a month some time ago, I spent lives focused entirely around abandoning the family and Nomad'ing out into the wild, using the Belltowers as coordinates to building brand new towns, and laying the foundation before players had a chance to 'tamper' with the construction process. I learned a lot from it and figured out some good practices in general for town layout.

My take-aways/thoughts:

  • Farm planning, farm planning, farm planning. Ensure the plots are designed in a "good shape", or else you'll suffer long-term overgrowth and untamed farming tiles that'll expand after each generation.

    My preferred pattern for Pine flooring + Crop tiles is as follows:

    XXX       XXX
    XXX___ XXX
      X_____ X 
      X_____ X 
    XXX___ XXX
    XXX       XXX

    Setup farm plots that are 5-wide and 4-tall space, with the corners replaced with Pine floor. All X's are the Pine/Wood Flooring, with the centers of each 3x3 being either the Town Well or a spot for Cistern.

    This gives optimal spacing for players to have room to work around the crop fields, while remaining an easy, modular pattern that any layman could repeat for near-endless numbers of rows.

    The difficulty is the initial setup; very few people care to do these patterns because it requires thought, and will only perpetuate it if it already exists in a clear fashion.

  • Bakery vs. Farms vs. Sheeps. A town is only going to be good so far as it has a solid location of the 'holy trinity' of farming and baking and sheeping. I haven't seen how much the rails change has alleviated the necessity between Sheeps+Farms and Bakeries, though, but I would hope a significant amount.

  • East and West-side Wall Slot Boxes. When building the bakery, take advantage of Plaster'ing and Slot Box'ing the left and right sides of the bakery before the rest of the building is finished. Plastered walls do not auto-orient, therefore allowing you to give the bakery a 50% boost in the number of slot boxes it has for food storage purposes. This is especially useful when the Hot Oven is neighboring one/more of these Slot Boxes, allowing for rapid baking.

  • Always make sure that, even without a building/walls, the Smithing area has an 7-wide by 6-tall space to work that overlaps with nothing else in the town. Set aside another 4-wide by 6-tall space for where the eventual Freestanding Newcomen will be built.

  • Make sure the fire is in a good place. Villages/Towns always have 1 fire source that perpetuates through all lives. Its location is typically established outside or in a nursery. It HAS to be within 4-5 second walking distance of both the Bakery and the Smithy, or else they will deteriorate in use/efficiency, and the wood stockpile will get divided.

  • Most towns fail to properly set aside space for a road to be put in town to connect to other parts of the town/farm or for leaving the town to an important resource area. If you get to make a new town, keep space for an eventual road in mind.

#13 Re: Main Forum » I surrounded this town in wells. » 2020-03-10 01:43:54

The only flaw is someone will inevitably rip up your flooring and try to prevent people from navigating it proper.

Your best bet is getting that town a map, and then placing Waystones next to every well. They'd have to work extra hard to grief that off.

#14 Re: News » Update: Table It » 2020-03-06 16:39:05

voy178 wrote:

I'm afraid the list grows at a faster pace than Jason can fix or dismiss them.

Not true, he’s actually brought the issues down to almost double digits now. Last week it was at ~140. Depending on the next batch and how many are actual issues/balancing vs. “more content” Issues, I stand by my 2-3 week timeframe estimate.

Also depends on whether Jason makes direct new content rather than continuing the bug fixing.

#15 Re: Main Forum » The game is dead » 2020-03-06 13:58:45

jasonrohrer wrote:

Most games have a decline in players over time.  That is just what happens.

Show me a game where that hasn't happened.

Space Station 13 has actually rebounded from its original starting playerbase of a couple hundred people, to now somewhere in the thousands.

For years, the stable populated servers see peaks of 40-70 people daily, depending on the part of the week.

For Colonial Marines in SS13, they've consistently sported 200+ players at almost all hours.

When major code shifts happen, that playerbase tends to fluctuate and move around. I've seen some servers that were only pulling 40-50 on weeknights suddenly have to deal with 80+ every single evening because of players migrating to different servers.

#16 Re: News » Update: Table It » 2020-03-06 13:33:28

I predict 2-3 weeks we'll have the Issues list cleared at current pacing. We're getting into old reports now, primarily the ones that are more heavy-hitting than others. So this could lean on the longer side.

#17 Re: Main Forum » Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress and One Hour One Life » 2020-03-04 15:27:57

Morti wrote:

What games are out there where characters can be born to other characters, mature throughout the course of the game, and can then go on to live lives, and play roles, for themselves? I can't think of any with players born as children, but which ones can any of you think of with NPCs as children? Probably some 4x games, maybe city builders? Survival or Rogue-like type games? I'm sure they exist and I've just forgotten them. Anyone play Europa Universalis or Crusader Kings? Are 'vassals' to-be, born in those, before taking up roles in the Empire, when they come of age? Did kids in The Sims, grow up to be adults? Or, remain children, the way they do in Stardew Valley?

I've played too many games, and OHOL, too much, to remember anything else with a 'children born to the townsfolk' mechanic... Banished!

I remember Banished had that. And you had to decide if you were going to rush a school so they didn't suffer at any profession later in life, or just hold out and risk suffering as they died in their professions, from accidents. But what else? Anyone?

SS13 technically has that with NPC's, but in a limited capacity when it comes to other players.

There are some jobs where you are interacting with animals, primarily in Science where their job is to feed and grow slimes, kill off the old ones, and then repeat the cycle.

There are also circumstances where you are able to add another player into the game (SS13 allows you to skip playing the round as a crewmember and just Observe what happens, which also lets you potentially join the Round thru these 'Ghost' roles).

The one that has actual "maturity" cycles would be the Xenomorphs in SS13, who have to lay eggs in the crewmembers that eventually hatch into new larvae (Ghost role). Those larvae go thru the Xeno lifecycle and eventually become one of three or four archetypes of the Xenomorph species.


#18 Re: Main Forum » Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress and One Hour One Life » 2020-03-04 13:05:46

Here y'all are comparing OHOL to Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress but none of you are comparing it to the closest "relative" in the gaming space.



#19 Re: Main Forum » The game is dead » 2020-03-03 21:08:15

Coconut Fruit wrote:

No wonder why new players quitting so fast. They have to play in big, high advanced towns, which is not what new players are looking for, they don't feel useful - nobody needs another hand for work. They don't have zoom mod, and this game sux without it. Communication sux, so in many cases they can't learn the game.

This is kind of what happens to new people in competitive games; if you matched a Bronze-skilled player against a "Grandmaster" player, the sheer gap in skill is going to lead to a swift beating on the Bronze player, and they will not actually learn anything from the experience and probably give up.

I would argue that the game's initial Steam release was the perfect culmination for new players to get into the game, followed by the number of streamers that also started playing it at the same time in that week of its successful selling.

There was a large flood of new players, across many servers, but primarily the first 3-4. With so many new players, there was no "massive gap" between the veterans and the newbies. There were varying tiers of newbies that either knew nothing at all, knew the basics of farming, or were quickly on their way towards becoming a veteran.

Now, whenever someone buys the game or it goes on a mild Steam Sale, we only get a 'trickle' of players that come in, and all of those players are going to BS2. Their numbers are so few that the gap between the Veterans and the newbies is so clear that it is, to an extent, oppressive to their development of appreciating the game.

#20 Re: Main Forum » The Game Designer Does Not Respect Families Nor Players » 2020-02-28 16:00:22

DestinyCall wrote:

I got the impression that Jason's take-away from that test was that almost nobody died and that towns stockpile too much food.    He is still planning to significantly nerf food, just slower, so we don't freak out until it is too late.

Hence the reference to "boiling the frog" in one of his update notes.

Yeah, just that compared to his previous "Boiling the frog" posts that Jason made when he first brought in tool slots, it felt very much like the extreme end of Boiling the frog, whereas this one now is far less impactful.

He ended up burning through town's stockpiles, and saw that basically everyone is going to stockpile. That's the point of everyone wanting to have tons of food, so that people don't starve and are free to take on other activities besides farming all day every day.

I certainly hope that the test made it clear that moving forward, using Food as a lever really doesn't work long-term. The game isn't about farming, it's about multiple generations and rebuilding civilization. Securing food supplies is just one aspect of that long road to rebuilding a civilization.

#21 Re: Main Forum » The Game Designer Does Not Respect Families Nor Players » 2020-02-28 15:48:05

Spoonwood wrote:

Also, 'experimenting' on people without their consent isn't ethical.  It wasn't ethical to change game conditions for the recent hour where there was a rather low amount of pips from food.

There were murmurs on the forums and in Discord that, if the game simply gave people less Food pips from eating, that it would lead to more organized and smaller towns. Jason simply tested it as quickly as possible to see how viable that was, and the results were abysmal.

I'd rather see a dev do something when we're in the middle of an inconsequential week, than a dev doing nothing at all and simply pondering options. The test gave us all the info we needed that no, FoodScale factor is NOT how you get people to cooperate and work as a town.

Edit: I love that you're trying to push Jason doing live tests on the servers as though he were experimenting on a live human being and inflicting physical pain or the risk of pain on the players.

Between "Jason is experimenting on us" and "Jason is disrespecting us" and "Jason's game is raping us" you are just an angry little ball of fluff, huh?

#22 Re: Main Forum » The Game Designer Does Not Respect Families Nor Players » 2020-02-27 04:17:45

Spoonwood wrote:

Boiling the frog

die slowly and painfully without even realizing


#23 Re: Main Forum » Seems like the latest murder update (no solo) is working » 2020-02-25 12:56:09

I'm sure right afterward, he also typed out that his father was the CEO of OHOL and would ban them for cursing their dummy account.

#24 Re: Main Forum » Pen Transformation » 2020-02-24 13:45:44

They are good storage, but for chaotic players easier to remove compared to wood fences.

#25 Re: Main Forum » Family professions. » 2020-02-24 13:36:00

I like professions, but I think they should be tied into Hierarchies, and should be assigned by a Leader within the Hierarchy.

This post is kinda paralel to what I was proposing in the Hierarchies thread, to be honest. I'll copy that segment over to here:

Wuatduhf wrote:
Job Titles

Leaders can give players Job Titles. "I DUB [PLAYER NAME] JOB" gives the player one Job Title until death. A Baron can make Lord Bob Wilson become Lord Chef Bob Wilson."

Job Titles immediately Learn tools for the player that are associated with that title (ideally customizable in the server config).
CHEF would include Adobe Hot Oven, Hot Coals, and Knife
DOCTOR - Needle & Thread, Medical Pads, and Knife
FARMER - Skewer, Stone Hoe, and Steel Hoe

The tool slots are, of course, free.

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