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#1 2020-05-16 20:25:00

Arcurus
Member
Registered: 2020-04-23
Posts: 649

How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

The main problems with roads / railroad as far as i see them:
1) There is not much time to develop a road system, since villages die out quite fast with the new food update.

2) Eve spawning is steady advancing to the west and never goes back, so old road systems are lost very soon

3) Reviving an abandoned town is economically not profitable???


to 1) life with the new food system becomes quite very hart in advanced villages, here some fixes are needed. Food in advanced villages should normally be less an issue then in low tech villages.

to 2) Eve spawn could be done in a spiral around the current center of the average position of the living people. So players would have it in the hand in which direction eve spawning is moving. If players in average migrate eve spawning migrates. The spiral would always start to search in the middle for a suitable location first (not dry natural spring, enough food not many players, no other eve) and then advance more and more to the outside until a promising spawn location is found.

to 3) im not fully aware yet how the economics works in this case, feel free to give your ideas....


to railroads: additionally to what is true for roads i guess they would need some buff to be economical viable, like less iron use, good speed, ability to transport players, what do others think?

The horse cart seems to be quite powerful currently, dont see how railroads could compete with that.

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-05-17 13:28:46)

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#2 2020-05-16 20:56:42

pein
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Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,255

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

flat rocks got different uses so there is a conflict

abandoned towns only good before Newcomen phase

if cars would work only on top of the roads, but wouldn't require (this much) kerosene, then they would be decently useful
but now they can be taken apart and then the engine destroyed so that isn't a good thing either

mine carts would need levers to stop them anywhere on the line to allow gradual scavenging with them, maybe auto load and unload feature so they not just a meme


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#3 2020-05-16 21:12:10

tocal
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Registered: 2020-04-23
Posts: 81

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

I think we should be able to ride the train at warp speed along the line, stopping at designated stations that require building. If two people were on the same track going opposite directions, could have funny showdowns.

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#4 2020-05-17 02:59:51

testo
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Registered: 2019-05-12
Posts: 696

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

pein wrote:

flat rocks got different uses so there is a conflict

abandoned towns only good before Newcomen phase

if cars would work only on top of the roads, but wouldn't require (this much) kerosene, then they would be decently useful
but now they can be taken apart and then the engine destroyed so that isn't a good thing either

mine carts would need levers to stop them anywhere on the line to allow gradual scavenging with them, maybe auto load and unload feature so they not just a meme

Flat rocks and even round stones are boring and tedious to collect. The civilized way was the use of a quarry to make more instead of randomly collecting them. We can make stone blocks but can´t use the big dug rocks for anything else. It desert lock doesn´t help either, because a lot of stones and flatties are located there.

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#5 2020-05-17 04:52:06

fug
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Registered: 2019-08-21
Posts: 933

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

A horse cart with rubber wheels can hold eight diesel engines or eight flat rocks.

Allowing stacks of flat rocks to go in a cart would help some of the tedium but unless we get a means to both make more flat stones (turning big stones into stacks of flatties) AND a means to make road making less tedious (imagine an item that can be filled to carry multiple flat rocks at a time) it'll always be annoying to make roads.

The key is to just buff the means of collection and the means of setting road tiles.


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#6 2020-05-17 05:16:34

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,255

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

I kinda imagined a Newcomen road roller, that uses asphalt, a side product of oil-producing, to lay roads in a straight line
you fill the machine and choose a starting point, it goes until it has any asphalt left
then you reload it and go further

the downside would be that you would need to clear the way in front of it, but you could make a long straight (or staircase) road with it quickly, if you got the materials

would make sense gameplay-wise that distance is not an issue late game

but the main problem is that nothing worth anything without renewable resources, now even the engines can be stolen from a well, so the people who actually made a city reach the tech stage and not die out early like others who weren't able to do the grind, their work is pissed on with this change

back before we had some cities that worth reviving and a lot that doesn't really

now I saw empty cities, maybe the doors aren't removed, it has a decent pen and huge flooring but no food or metal within 200x200 radius
at this point, they could decay and a random swamp would provide more benefit to the world

I mean what's the point connecting cities which don't worth anything? you can be sentimental, carry oil from further and further away back to a city, but when the engine is stolen and every piece of tech is stolen, it's more trouble than worth to it


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#7 2020-05-17 11:26:40

Jamie
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Registered: 2020-01-20
Posts: 95

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

I also want justice for cars.

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#8 2020-05-17 13:56:03

miskas
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From: Greece
Registered: 2018-03-24
Posts: 1,063

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

Infrastructure needs a long term demand to Return on Investment, we just don't have enough stable long term demand that can pay off the cost of investment.

-What is the cost of building a 300 tile Road?
-What is the profit of building this 300 tile road?
-For how long will you get this profit?

roads cost: productive time/food
roads return productive time/food whenever you use them.

how much does the speed of a horse increase by a road?
how many times do you use a road to "trade" or extract oil?
how much time did you invest to build that road?

I haven't done the math but I have a feeling that the balance is at a loss.


What about a road to the near mine or the near well or the near oil.
These roads get used quite often. They don't cost much and they are useful as a pointers to the point of interest. These roads might worth it, mainly because they guide you there though. Making a small 10 tile road with a way stone at the end might be a better cost-efficient way.

Last edited by miskas (2020-05-17 14:05:11)


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#9 2020-05-17 14:04:09

Arcurus
Member
Registered: 2020-04-23
Posts: 649

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

miskas wrote:

Infrastructure needs a long term demand to Return on Investment, we just don't have enough stable long term demand that can pay off the cost of investment.

-What is the cost of building a 300 tile Road?
-What is the profit of building this 300 tile road?
-For how long will you get this profit?

roads cost: productive time/food
roads return productive time/food whenever you use them.

how much does the speed of a horse increase by a road?
how many times do you use a road to "trade" or extract oil?
how much time did you invest to build that road?

I haven't done the math but I have a feeling that the balance is at a loss.

yea, thats exactly the questions which i have. Currently roads seems simply not worth the cost / time. The longer the village would stay alive or is reused the better the cost return. I guess with two people you need little less then two lifes to connect the average village, so the cost itself is not too high if the villages would stay alive longer and if the horse wagen would not be that overpowered. at least if full it can be slower and horses could need to eat from time to time to be still fast.... Also the biom restrictions needs balancing, a horse can pass bioms, but if you walk you drop all your stuff...

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-05-17 14:05:42)

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#10 2020-05-17 14:10:50

miskas
Member
From: Greece
Registered: 2018-03-24
Posts: 1,063

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

the previous comment got additional text.


also here is an idea I have.

Transform resource production from wandering to stable work.
Ohol has a very bad screen for searching and traveling, thus wandering and searching is kind of boring.

Proposition: create hotspots in the map that have a great amount of resources that can be gathered at a very small cost.

-Quarry mine: Flat stones, big rocks, round stones, Limestones
-Claybank

other items that can have a stable production:
Calamite, Malachite, cinnabar,lapis lazuli, alum, gold, Electrum Ore

You can either have a mine for each resource, Or have a mine with all resources that produce them at % percentages, Or a mine that Produces a new Item that with proper processing produce the resource we want.

This will promote Infrastructure, we will have better control over our resources.

If the mines use pickaxe it might wise to baff pickaxe uses. 21 uses are the lowest of all tools.

Last edited by miskas (2020-05-17 14:11:34)


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#11 2020-05-17 14:21:09

Arcurus
Member
Registered: 2020-04-23
Posts: 649

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

miskas wrote:

What about a road to the near mine or the near well or the near oil.
These roads get used quite often. They don't cost much and they are useful as a pointers to the point of interest. These roads might worth it, mainly because they guide you there though. Making a small 10 tile road with a way stone at the end might be a better cost-efficient way.

yea, currently marking stuff is the only useful use...

Since wells and mines are on a grid... no use to mark that... hope there will be a time without a grid so that exploring marking is needed more.

With the idea having resources more accumulated on certain places sounds great, especially for iron and stuff like that. like generally the map could create real abundance in certain spots from certain ressouces, but so much far away from each other, that every village feels different. like in one you may have tons of iron, in one tons of berries or rabbits in one just tons of milkweed or flatstones.

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#12 2020-05-17 16:03:50

pein
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Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,255

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

to be fair the recent changes make travel obsolete

you are forced to stay home, forced to stay within the homeland, slowed down so you won't really make a profit from gathering from afar, no more iron nearby, no reason to go outt without a horse, no horses

when we sit in a virtual box, might as well be a real box, a rift was bad for all families but might work with a 300x300 family map, maybe after the eve makes the well, reenter around it and limit, but in exchange make some ways of fast travel, like space portal, minimap with several dots as cities and a way to jump between them by upgrading one single point of travel, just like aeroplanes, go in one side, exit another side, this would also make redundant cities easier to delete and families to be closer without actually being near each other
less theft since you would be limited on what you take from others and possibly trade later on with a similar trading post


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#13 2020-05-17 16:13:46

miskas
Member
From: Greece
Registered: 2018-03-24
Posts: 1,063

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

Not realy , Traveling to abandon villages is a good way to gather resources, Most of them have plenty of loot to be taken.
you can also make well outpost.
And in the end YOU HAVE TO Travel, no rubber is certain death for your camp.

Last edited by miskas (2020-05-17 16:14:24)


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#14 2020-05-17 17:23:48

Arcurus
Member
Registered: 2020-04-23
Posts: 649

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

pein wrote:

to be fair the recent changes make travel obsolete

you are forced to stay home, forced to stay within the homeland, slowed down so you won't really make a profit from gathering from afar, no more iron nearby, no reason to go outt without a horse, no horses
...

i dont yet understand the homsick except that you cant have children or something... can you explain what it does?
In what way slowed down? Yea iron.... Why no horses, in most village lately i encountered always some... maybe that was an exception? Got more the impression from the past life, that it was very easy to travel with horse.

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#15 2020-05-17 18:32:46

Legs
Member
Registered: 2019-07-12
Posts: 367

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

Homesick just makes you infertile. It's so that different families can't live together in the same town, just visit. That way you have to travel and trade rather than just cohabitating. Before homelands everyone just lived in one or two big multicultural cities where all the resources were gathered and shared freely. It was an extremely successful type of society and all of our longest-lived families came from that era. Now we have to live apart and the well is laughably easy to wreck so families are very short lived.


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#16 2020-05-17 19:10:44

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,255

Re: How to make Roads and Railroads more useful?

you only get iron once, no babies outside homelands

horses are just stolen from each other, they never increase and the whole town wont have a horse for themselves


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