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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2020-12-02 10:00:49

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Maps are dead content

No reason to make a map to a village just need to find the magical stone.

No reason to make a map to a biome just need to find the magical band.

Cant make more than one village per family because you are magically tied to a place.

Dont get me wrong some "magic" is nice like the apocalype for example that's a pretty fun concept, oh wait when was the last apocalypse?

Right there's no reason to make one because villages die in a day or two anyway.

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#2 2020-12-02 10:32:28

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Maps are dead content

Dodge wrote:

No reason to make a map to a village just need to find the magical stone.

Expert way stones lead you to characters, not villages. Maps can reliably lead to villages, way stones can't.  For scavenging purposes, maps thus can make some sense, if using the default client or probably even Awbz mod.

Dodge wrote:

Dont get me wrong some "magic" is nice like the apocalype for example that's a pretty fun concept, oh wait when was the last apocalypse?

Right there's no reason to make one because villages die in a day or two anyway.

Apocalypse makers have often killed their own children.  There should be little reason to do that in a good game about parenting where one's children are random people.  It's just bad values to express hostility towards a stranger on the basis of nothing.  Apocalypse makers have not been trying to "build civilization".  They have not been trying to parent.  They are not trying to play a collective survival game, because they know that the likely result is many other players not surviving until old age for that life since everything goes back suddenly to the state of nature.  And *if* the purpose of apocalypses has been so that players can "rebuild civilization" from scratch, there's apparently been plenty of that since the recent sale and the TikTok blurb.

So what's the problem with the apocalypse being dead content?  Anything that doesn't fit well with the core concepts of the game, and what it should do can get achieved by other means, isn't worth making it into seriously used content.  Because, that would mean the game was even more hollow at its core, and even less meaningful in terms of what it says in its Steam advertisement.

And lastly, apocalypse makers are boring overall.  They want babies to have 20 second one life experiences.  They want players to have 5 minute one life experiences.  Or 20 minutes one life experiences.  All sorts of such deaths due to NO fault of the player, and no way that the player could have succeeded in surviving to old age.  It's simply more interesting for more players to have one hour one life experiences.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-12-02 10:38:52)

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#3 2020-12-02 10:49:12

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Maps are dead content

Parenting AND civilisations

heart-human-sacrifice.jpg

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#4 2020-12-02 12:40:11

JonySky
Member
From: Catalunya
Registered: 2018-05-13
Posts: 672
Website

Re: Maps are dead content

Dodge wrote:

No reason to make a map to a village just need to find the magical stone.

No reason to make a map to a biome just need to find the magical band.

Cant make more than one village per family because you are magically tied to a place.

Dont get me wrong some "magic" is nice like the apocalype for example that's a pretty fun concept, oh wait when was the last apocalypse?

Right there's no reason to make one because villages die in a day or two anyway.


Too much magic has destroyed this game ...
If you analyze the problem you will see that this magic is a patch to hide the deficiencies of the game engine

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#5 2020-12-02 15:26:36

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Maps are dead content

JonySky wrote:
Dodge wrote:

No reason to make a map to a village just need to find the magical stone.

No reason to make a map to a biome just need to find the magical band.

Cant make more than one village per family because you are magically tied to a place.

Dont get me wrong some "magic" is nice like the apocalype for example that's a pretty fun concept, oh wait when was the last apocalypse?

Right there's no reason to make one because villages die in a day or two anyway.


Too much magic has destroyed this game ...
If you analyze the problem you will see that this magic is a patch to hide the deficiencies of the game engine

I think I read elsewhere that game designers do this rather frequently.  So doing this doesn't seem very original.

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#6 2020-12-02 15:41:20

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Maps are dead content

cordy wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:

Expert way stones lead you to characters, not villages. Maps can reliably lead to villages, way stones can't.  For scavenging purposes, maps thus can make some sense, if using the default client or probably even Awbz mod.

Code Change

Touching an expert waystone points you to a very close expert (<32 away), if a close one exists, OR to the well site in a populated expert homeland. No more wild goose chase for a lone expert out in the wilderness who will probably be gone by the time you get there (or who may be walking away from you as you try to approach them).

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … e5fd06191a

That was on April 2nd, before biome bands.  I'm suspicious that such still works that way, if it ever did.  See here: https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/712  where tutorial experts and donkey town experts get pointed to.  It hadn't been an hour for a well site with a family name to change to nothing, and I think I've seen that well sites with family names still exists on bigserver2.

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#7 2020-12-03 00:56:41

StrongForce
Member
Registered: 2018-03-09
Posts: 473

Re: Maps are dead content

Families are not bound to one town
Once you have an engine to mine iron you can live anywhere within your band


Baby dance!!

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#8 2020-12-04 18:05:32

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,737

Re: Maps are dead content

Separate from finding other villages, what about finding established oil wells?

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#9 2020-12-04 18:58:40

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 315

Re: Maps are dead content

People still make and use maps all the time.

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#10 2020-12-04 19:42:51

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Maps are dead content

jasonrohrer wrote:

Separate from finding other villages, what about finding established oil wells?

Just follow the magic line close to the nearest ginger village

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#11 2020-12-04 20:37:05

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 315

Re: Maps are dead content

Dodge wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:

Separate from finding other villages, what about finding established oil wells?

Just follow the magic line close to the nearest ginger village

That definitely doesn't work. You'll just find untapped and exhausted wells. Most families are only working one well at a time.

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#12 2020-12-04 20:47:04

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Maps are dead content

NoTruePunk wrote:
Dodge wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:

Separate from finding other villages, what about finding established oil wells?

Just follow the magic line close to the nearest ginger village

That definitely doesn't work. You'll just find untapped and exhausted wells. Most families are only working one well at a time.

It's on a line if it's not this one it's the other one, if it's not left it's right, and all this is on the magical band, you cant miss it.

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#13 2020-12-04 20:55:45

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 315

Re: Maps are dead content

Dodge wrote:
NoTruePunk wrote:
Dodge wrote:

Just follow the magic line close to the nearest ginger village

That definitely doesn't work. You'll just find untapped and exhausted wells. Most families are only working one well at a time.

It's on a line if it's not this one it's the other one, if it's not left it's right, and all this is on the magical band, you cant miss it.

It's true they're all on lines, but not just the family's well line. Tarry spots are also on the lines above and below their well. Scouting one out, starting the setup and making a map for the family is a major contribution to it's development.

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#14 2020-12-04 21:07:32

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Maps are dead content

NoTruePunk wrote:
Dodge wrote:
NoTruePunk wrote:

That definitely doesn't work. You'll just find untapped and exhausted wells. Most families are only working one well at a time.

It's on a line if it's not this one it's the other one, if it's not left it's right, and all this is on the magical band, you cant miss it.

It's true they're all on lines, but not just the family's well line. Tarry spots are also on the lines above and below their well. Scouting one out, starting the setup and making a map for the family is a major contribution to it's development.

It will take you a little more time following the different lines, and even that is arguable if you're driving a truck, you're missing the point though, you dont need the map, now imagine there is no lines and the biome is not a band, the oil rig could be in any direction possible at any distance and without a map it's a certainty you would never find it.

On top of that this concerns only one race out of four all the other ones cant even interact with the oil well anyway.

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#15 2020-12-05 04:36:22

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 315

Re: Maps are dead content

Dodge wrote:
NoTruePunk wrote:
Dodge wrote:

It's on a line if it's not this one it's the other one, if it's not left it's right, and all this is on the magical band, you cant miss it.

It's true they're all on lines, but not just the family's well line. Tarry spots are also on the lines above and below their well. Scouting one out, starting the setup and making a map for the family is a major contribution to it's development.

It will take you a little more time following the different lines, and even that is arguable if you're driving a truck, you're missing the point though, you dont need the map

You're saying to re-discover a site your family was already working on from scratch? Why would you do this instead of just reading through maps in a basket? That would take forever.

now imagine there is no lines and the biome is not a band, the oil rig could be in any direction possible at any distance and without a map it's a certainty you would never find it.

This is still true even with the grid system. You can only check one line at a time, and it's impossible to know how far out it is. In order to check the other lines you have to double back, which means if it's further out than the spot you double back on you won't find it.

Just bring a map and a pencil when you go out exploring for oil. If you don't finish the next person can go straight there. It's not hard. If your fam doesn't have maps then make a dozen for future generations to use. Maps are cheap as heck

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#16 2020-12-05 05:15:29

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Maps are dead content

Just compare the number of maps done before the magic line, band and race update to now.

Before there where maps everywhere, now you maybe see one or two maps and only in a ginger village, it's dead.

For something that is supposed to be an important part of the game and the main way for players to find each other and points of interest, it's just disapointing to argue about them being used for one place and one race.

You can say all you want but you know that without all these magic addons that give you direction you would have no chance of finding back consistantly and over generations that one iron vein that your great great great.... grandpa mined in the west-south-west seven hundred and thirty six tiles away behind the jungle biome next to a swamp.

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#17 2020-12-05 06:10:48

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Maps are dead content

Dodge wrote:

For something that is supposed to be an important part of the game and the main way for players to find each other and points of interest, it's just disapointing to argue about them being used for one place and one race.

I think Jason said a while back that he wouldn't be adding maps.  He did change his mind, but don't you think that if maps were supposed to be an important part of the game, they would have gotten added early?

Also Dodge, how much have you played lately?  You've admitted in the past that you deliberately died off early on bigserver2.  Have you been having one hour one life experiences?  Because if you haven't, then I simply don't find you a credible source of information in general.  And I see no reason at all why anyone else should, since this game isn't thirty minutes one life, it's not forty minutes one life, it's one hour one life and nothing less.  If you're not trying to do that on a consistent basis, then I simply don't see how you're trying to play the game and if you ask me that makes everything you say suspect.

Dodge wrote:

You can say all you want but you know that without all these magic addons that give you direction you would have no chance of finding back consistantly and over generations that one iron vein that your great great great.... grandpa mined in the west-south-west seven hundred and thirty six tiles away behind the jungle biome next to a swamp.

You wouldn't necessarily need to find the same one.  Stakes on dry springs can lead you to iron vein locations.  It seems to me that you aren't talking about something arising from an in-game problem, but rather theorizing about about an artificial one.  The danger there lies in that you might have conocoted a problem in your mind, when there isn't an in-game problem.

I'll ask this: IF maps are dead content, how is that leading to worse experiences for players?  How is that leading to families surviving less?  How is that killing any players who should have lived?  How does that dissuade people from playing the game?  The radio telegraph long has been dead content.  But, what can get gained were it made into non-dead content?  The same goes for maps *if* they are dead content.  What exactly would get gained by them becoming made more often?  Because I simply don't see what would get gained here.

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#18 2020-12-05 07:33:03

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Maps are dead content

Spoonwood wrote:

...


"Stakes on dry springs can lead you to iron vein locations." Oh you mean the magical stakes that just appear when you build a well? Funny

Or do you mean the magical spring mine connection that makes it so you know that  the mine is close to your village?

As for the argument of "YoU dOnT eVeN pLaY tHe GaMe" first of all i did play it during the recent new player rush, also i played it extensivly so i know how changes affect the game even without playing it, it's really common sense.

And please dont use the argument of "i was born in a village and saw some maps therefore you are wrong", i'm not talking about maps made by some new player learning to make new recipes or maps made by a roleplayer that leads you to a "hidden treasure", "oh no it was a bear cave not a treasure so funny hihihihihi".

Actual maps that lead you to something useful like an iron mine, i remember before all that bulshit got added to the game i was travelling on a horse scoutting for iron veins and writing on a map their location, bringing back the maps so the future generations can go there and mine it, completely pointless to do this right now for multiple reasons.

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#19 2020-12-05 09:11:48

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Maps are dead content

Dodge wrote:

Oh you mean the magical stakes that just appear when you build a well? Funny

They are useful.  You can laugh at useful things all day, but they remain useful, and it seems like you look a gift horse in the mouth by laughing.

Dodge wrote:

As for the argument of "YoU dOnT eVeN pLaY tHe GaMe" first of all i did play it during the recent new player rush, also i played it extensivly so i know how changes affect the game even without playing it, it's really common sense.

Oh really?  What's your hash?  How long did you live?  How many lives did you deliberately try to live to 60 Dodge?

Dodge wrote:

Actual maps that lead you to something useful like an iron mine, i remember before all that bulshit got added to the game i was travelling on a horse scoutting for iron veins and writing on a map their location, bringing back the maps so the future generations can go there and mine it, completely pointless to do this right now for multiple reasons.

You're serious on this point?  Under the old iron system it was usually easy to empty a mine in one life.  If you didn't get that done, then you could tell someone the direction of a mine.  And mines could get found in many places on the map during many time periods.

Also Dodge, with Eve spawning spreading out, it's very likely that there exist mines further east which haven't gotten drained.  Maps could point to such locations.

Again though, you say you played, but what's your hash?  What lives did you live?  How many of them did you *deliberately* try to live to 60?  And again, if you weren't trying to deliberately live to 60, well, then you were playing something like 40 minutes one life or 50 minutes one life, not one hour one life.

Maps can also point people to the location of dead villages for scavenging purposes.

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#20 2020-12-05 10:00:19

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Maps are dead content

Spoonwood wrote:
Dodge wrote:

Oh you mean the magical stakes that just appear when you build a well? Funny

They are useful.  You can laugh at useful things all day, but they remain useful, and it seems like you look a gift horse in the mouth by laughing.

You completely missed the point, they magically appear and give you directions which burries maps even deeper in the dead content grave, right next to planes and dogs havent seen those in a while.

Also you need to stop with the whole "if you dont live to 60 blablabla"

Spoonwood wrote:

You're serious on this point?  Under the old iron system it was usually easy to empty a mine in one life.  If you didn't get that done, then you could tell someone the direction of a mine.  And mines could get found in many places on the map during many time periods.

With a horsecart you could only get as much iron especially if the mine was far away, so filling your cart with iron ore and making maps to the other veins was a good way for the village to get a lot of iron.

Telling directions to others has to be one of the worst strats, where you really playing the game or are you a noob?

Most of the time they would just ignore you and even if you caught someones attention who was actually serious about following the directions if it's only a couple of tiles away far they have no chance to find it unless they use some zoom or other type of cheat.

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#21 2020-12-05 11:27:49

JonySky
Member
From: Catalunya
Registered: 2018-05-13
Posts: 672
Website

Re: Maps are dead content

Dodge wrote:

You completely missed the point, they magically appear and give you directions which burries maps even deeper in the dead content grave, right next to planes and dogs havent seen those in a while.

and the trains, radios, cameras, war swords, Feast Table, wool clothes ...

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#22 2020-12-05 11:47:41

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Maps are dead content

Dodge wrote:

You completely missed the point, they magically appear ...

Eves magically appear.  Babies magically appear.  Rabbits magically appear out of their holes after sitting there forever.  Geese magically have eggs layed when players start on the map.  You clearly look a gift horse in the mouth Dodge.

Dodge wrote:

Also you need to stop with the whole "if you dont live to 60 blablabla"

You said elsewhere it's crueler to not speak honestly.  Well Dodge, simply put, I don't believe you as psychologically capable of living to 60.  You don't have the wherewithal for this game. 

You need to start trying to live to 60 every time you play.  Or else you're little more than someone who complains, but who only has the stomach for 40 minute one life experiences.  Or 50 minute one life experiences.  The game is one hour one life.  And if you're not trying to live to 60 every time you play, you are a coward who simply won't even try to play in the spirit of the game.  For it's one hour one life, that's what it is.

Dodge wrote:

With a horsecart you could only get as much iron especially if the mine was far away, so filling your cart with iron ore and making maps to the other veins was a good way for the village to get a lot of iron.

There were many veins likely north or south beyond the spawning radius.  Or in other directions.  Maps simply weren't needed for that.

Dodge wrote:

Telling directions to others has to be one of the worst strats, where you really playing the game or are you a noob?

You can call such a dumb strategy all you like.  It's still within the scope of the game.

Dodge wrote:

Most of the time they would just ignore you and even if you caught someones attention who was actually serious about following the directions if it's only a couple of tiles away far they have no chance to find it unless they use some zoom or other type of cheat.

It figures.  You play something like 20 minutes one life, one minute one life, 30 minutes one life, 40 minutes one life on purpose.  And then you accuse someone else of cheating.  Even though mods are perfectly legal and have been since they've gotten desgined for this *open source* game.  Nothing but the tactic of a coward who doesn't have the wherewithal to stick things out.  It figures you wouldn't answer the questions Dodge.  Because it goes to show that you don't have an interest in one hour one life experiences.  How inadequate... nay... pathetic!

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#23 2020-12-05 11:50:12

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Maps are dead content

JonySky wrote:
Dodge wrote:

You completely missed the point, they magically appear and give you directions which burries maps even deeper in the dead content grave, right next to planes and dogs havent seen those in a while.

and the trains, radios, cameras, war swords, Feast Table, wool clothes ...

Yea, it's very selective on the part of Dodge to just complain about maps, even if they are as bad as he says they are.

Again, what's the basis for believing that the game becomes better for people if maps were more common?

Dodge didn't even bother to try to answer that question, did he?

Also, I've seen feast tables, and wool clothes lately.  Tracks get used in places for storage purposes sometimes.  But still, why is Dodge talking about maps?

And why is he complaining about "magic" when *ab initio* the game is based on an Eve *magically* appearing out of nowhere, and a baby magically spawning out of her?  One would hope that magic would be able to get recognized as the foundation of this game, and thus maybe consider that magic isn't necessarily bad for it (even if we had fathers, and mating, that process would still qualify as magical).  But instead "magic" gets used as a buzzword, unthinkingly as if by using such a word it necessarily proves that something in the game is bad for it.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-12-05 12:09:19)

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#24 2020-12-05 12:37:34

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Maps are dead content

I already said it before there's good and bad magic in this game, obviously you need players to be able to spawn in a practical way and within the philosophy of the game so magically being born to only a mother is good magic but giving directions to the players where all the important stuff is located is bad magic.

I've played many lives some to 60 some shorter due to fatalities and some of them shortened by my own will due to extreme boredom, the shorter more interesting lives have been much better than the longer uninteresting ones, obviously the ideal being to die at 60 having living an interesting life but this isnt always the case and more so with the recent forced and bad magical updates that make it even less interesting.

If you play to 60 just for the sake of it while being bored senseless then you are a fool and if you are entertained only by crafting for the sake of crafting while being an experienced player that already went trough the full techtree many times then i have little to no interest in hearing what you have to say.

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#25 2020-12-05 14:35:00

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 315

Re: Maps are dead content

JonySky wrote:
Dodge wrote:

You completely missed the point, they magically appear and give you directions which burries maps even deeper in the dead content grave, right next to planes and dogs havent seen those in a while.

and the trains, radios, cameras, war swords, Feast Table, wool clothes ...

Track carts, radios, cameras, cameras and feast tables still get use. War swords are a little pointless, but might come in handy later. Wool clothes are a bad choice of resources but I think it's OK to have bad resource sinks in the game, as it gives options to people learning. It's been a while but I have seen a plane or two in the current arc.

I hate dogs, but that doesn't stop people from making them.

Maps serve a specific purpose that nothing else in the game can do. There's player made waystones, but those require maps. Maps are just fine

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