How Iron Works Now: The Whole Process

Spoonwood · 2020-05-16 04:07:56

Slinky asked on the discord how iron works, and I wrote a response, so I'll explain it from scratch:

0. There exist muddy iron veins on the natural map (before anyone has touched anything). Each of those are the only sources of iron on the whole map.

1. A muddy iron vein becomes loose and thus accessible by hand if you make a pile of stones on a natural spring in the east-west/left-right fault line of that vein. The loose muddy iron vein has iron can get picked by hand. A location can have multiple loose muddy iron veins. They stop getting affected, I think, at the same distance that springs stop becoming dry from a dug up well.

2. The next stage is after the spring has gotten dug into a shallow well. The loose muddy iron vein (it doesn't have to have any iron left on it) becomes an iron vein when the shallow well gets dug and has iron that can get picked on it by hand.

3. Once that's done, a mining pick is needed to tap into the stripped iron vein. Using the mining pick gives a shallow iron vein that needs a mining pick to get iron one by one. A mining pick has to get used to get iron, and then the iron moved off of the mine, before a mining pick can get used again. Each iron is hungry work. For anyone who doesn't know, mining picks do break.

4. The shallow iron vein exhausts, and becomes a deep iron pit. A stanchion kit to get the iron out, first, and again a mining pick to get iron out one by one with hungry work.

5. After that an engine is installed on a collapsed iron vein for a diesel mining pick exchanging a charge of kerosene and a chisel (the chisel is the 'bit') use for 6 iron for each use.

The above is not a strategy guide, implying that it's the best practice to go through each stage. Nor should it get read as an approval of how such is designed. It's just an explanation of the stages.

tocal · 2020-05-16 04:41:58

Does it matter the state of the chisel? can almost broken chisels be used as the bit?

Could you also explain the spring system? how things dry up, the directional markers, sand, why eves can't create well sites anywhere near where they spawn oftentimes?

testo · 2020-05-16 06:46:56

tocal wrote:

Does it matter the state of the chisel? can almost broken chisels be used as the bit?
Could you also explain the spring system? how things dry up, the directional markers, sand, why eves can't create well sites anywhere near where they spawn oftentimes?

I was making a full post with explanations and a picture until I realized I was doing Jasons work. For free. I can still explain it to you on discord.

DiscardedSlinky · 2020-05-16 07:23:02

It's extremely sad that an explanation this long is needed for something so important.

Imagine trying to explain this in game to people.

This is a failure of game design

Arcurus · 2020-05-16 08:00:26

Spoonwood wrote:

Slinky asked on the discord how iron works, and I wrote a response, so I'll explain it from scratch:
0. There exist muddy iron veins on the natural map (before anyone has touched anything). Each of those are the only sources of iron on the whole map.
1. A muddy iron vein becomes loose and thus accessible by hand if you make a pile of stones on a natural spring in the east-west/left-right fault line of that vein. The loose muddy iron vein has iron can get picked by hand. A location can have multiple loose muddy iron veins. They stop getting affected, I think, at the same distance that springs stop becoming dry from a dug up well.
2. The next stage is after the spring has gotten dug into a shallow well. The loose muddy iron vein (it doesn't have to have any iron left on it) becomes an iron vein when the shallow well gets dug and has iron that can get picked on it by hand.
3. Once that's done, a mining pick is needed to tap into the stripped iron vein. Using the mining pick gives a shallow iron vein that needs a mining pick to get iron one by one. A mining pick has to get used to get iron, and then the iron moved off of the mine, before a mining pick can get used again. Each iron is hungry work. For anyone who doesn't know, mining picks do break.
4. The shallow iron vein exhausts, and becomes a deep iron pit. A stanchion kit to get the iron out, first, and again a mining pick to get iron out one by one with hungry work.
5. After that an engine is installed on a collapsed iron vein for a diesel mining pick exchanging a charge of kerosene and a chisel (the chisel is the 'bit') use for 6 iron for each use.
The above is not a strategy guide, implying that it's the best practice to go through each stage. Nor should it get read as an approval of how such is designed. It's just an explanation of the stages.

thx for the summary, hard to understand the system, feels kind of wired...

To step 1) thought this can be only done once per family or how does this work?

To 5) this means iron is unlimited as long as you have kersosene right?

How did iron work before the family mine update?

miskas · 2020-05-16 08:02:09

Spownwood you have to start spamming post explaining the mechanics on new players. You are good at this and there is a demand for it!

voy178 · 2020-05-16 08:23:53

Spoonwood, we've found your purpose on this forum finally.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-16 08:36:59

tocal wrote:

Does it matter the state of the chisel? can almost broken chisels be used as the bit?

I don't know.

tocal wrote:

Could you also explain the spring system? how things dry up, the directional markers, sand, why eves can't create well sites anywhere near where they spawn oftentimes?

Maybe.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-16 08:41:49

Arcurus wrote:

thx for the summary, hard to understand the system, feels kind of wired...
To step 1) thought this can be only done once per family or how does this work?

I don't know.

Arcurus wrote:

To 5) this means iron is unlimited as long as you have kersosene right?

Yes.

Arcurus wrote:

How did iron work before the family mine update?

There existed iron ore on the ground. People would tap an iron mine (which were naturally occurring as iron mines), throw a stanchion kit on it and take out the iron by hand. No hungry work. The diesel mining pick process was the same.

Nice question. I could BARELY explain the old system in game as an older adult.

testo · 2020-05-16 10:57:51

Oh well I will just drop a few things on each step:

0 Yes veins can only be found once per family with your FIRST well location (made with ten stones at a natural spring -not dry-). However, there are several abandoned veins at second and third level around the map. I would say half the families don´t use all the iron they get from the map.

1 Muddy iron veins are placed in the same 40x40 grid of springs, which means you have theoretically the positions at +40, +80, +120 and 160 as possible muddy veins to become loose (east) and those at the left (West). Those are in total max 8 veins to access with your well. Jason did a survey on the map and average per well is 3 veins per natural spring. There are places with zero. If you happen to make your well site at a spring with zero and didn´t check, you can still make a well site somewhere else for a second time only limited offer and still get iron from there.

If you want to know the ideal number I´d say 3 is pretty ok and 4 is more than enough. You are getting 8 loose iron with no work, 20 average from open vein and 46 average from stanchion kit from each mine. A total of 74 iron from each vein without kerosene. If you are in an average spot you get 3x74=222 iron total which is why most families don´t even use all the iron. The pick use is relatively low, each one is 21 uses so you need about 3 picks per mine.

2 Whenever you loosen up your muddy veins by collecting your 10 stones in at your well site, go east and west before making the well and take the four iron from each by hand. If you don´t, you will lose those loose four iron because the mine will turn into an iron vein once the well is made, giving you four more 4 loose iron each. Check https://onetech.info/3954-Iron-Vein-justDried for clarification.

3) Iron is unlimited if you have kerosene, but you get only 5 iron per kero bowl (It is 6 iron -1 a NEW chisel). A full tank of kero is 6 charges so you get 30 iron from each tank. Each oil rig has an average of 11 uses. Check https://onetech.info/2311-Firing-Oil-Pumpjack.
So, if you use your diesel into iron you get about 11 tanks or 66 charges or 330 iron for the full oil rig. Compared to the average iron you get it is about the same amount of a spring with 4 iron veins. But the real problem is water, not iron. A shallow well is about 1.3 cisterns and a deep well about 3.3 cisterns. Without rubber you can get an average of 4.3 cisterns. With rubber alone you can get 12 cisterns of water. Past that you need oil. And oil is about 2.3 cisterns per tank (give or take). If you have to choose, kero should always go into water imo.

Also a small hint, each time you recycle iron and steel you are basically doubling your iron/steel supply so each iron number can be hypothetically doubled.

This is not a guide tbh, but everything is based on the actual numbers.

Arcurus · 2020-05-16 11:34:07

testo wrote:

...
This is not a guide tbh, but everything is based on the actual numbers.

wow, this a great summary!

Alterior · 2020-05-16 12:17:42

testo wrote:

Also a small hint, each time you recycle iron and steel you are basically doubling your iron/steel supply so each iron number can be hypothetically doubled.

It takes two broken tools to get one scrap iron. Use two iron tools, get one free.
So, 50% extra is free as a rough estimate.
Shears cost two iron to make but break into half a scrap, which brings it under a perfect 50% (shears are bullshit Jason).

testo · 2020-05-16 12:18:05

And just to throw in why you get double iron by recycling steel let me put it this way:

You start with some steel ingots, lets say 64. And make tools then use them and manage to recycle them all into scrap steel. So you get your 64 steel value plus 32 scrap that can be turned into steel again. Hey that´s only 1.5 steel. Yep, but once you use those you get again 16 scrap steel. And after use 8. And then 4, 2 and last 1 steel. At this point you can´t make more scrap steel. But you got the value of 64+32+16+8+4+2+1=127 steel. Which just happens to be about 2x64. If you know a little math about sums you understand why is it double every time.

pein · 2020-05-16 20:52:23

yeah, breaking chisel works on iron mines, so you can use them for cutting stone a bit, since it still has 1 usage when it's crackling, it can be used on the iron mine, but as far as I saw, there is still no reason to use the kerosene for iron, you get water for it and you can collect quite a lot of iron from dead towns

one important thing to mention: iron mines only work for the eves, in some cases there are no muddy veins near your well so you won't get iron, then the first outpost can get iron
but after that, outposts won't get iron, they even dry out the possible locations so you better off taking over small camps with iron or choosing one that wouldn't have any iron anyway

when families die out you can get different wells nearby, the 160 TapouT radius doesn't apply every time

testo · 2020-05-17 02:39:24

Alterior wrote:

testo wrote:
Also a small hint, each time you recycle iron and steel you are basically doubling your iron/steel supply so each iron number can be hypothetically doubled.
It takes two broken tools to get one scrap iron. Use two iron tools, get one free.
So, 50% extra is free as a rough estimate.
Shears cost two iron to make but break into half a scrap, which brings it under a perfect 50% (shears are bullshit Jason).

I hope you understand now why each time you recycle a broken tool you double the overall steel supply. You may not be doubling the steel from that specific broken tool, you get just half steel from a broken tool. But by making the recycle process iteratively over the same piece of original steel you get double out of it.

Alterior · 2020-05-17 03:41:34

testo wrote:

And just to throw in why you get double iron by recycling steel let me put it this way:
You start with some steel ingots, lets say 64. And make tools then use them and manage to recycle them all into scrap steel. So you get your 64 steel value plus 32 scrap that can be turned into steel again. Hey that´s only 1.5 steel. Yep, but once you use those you get again 16 scrap steel. And after use 8. And then 4, 2 and last 1 steel. At this point you can´t make more scrap steel. But you got the value of 64+32+16+8+4+2+1=127 steel. Which just happens to be about 2x64. If you know a little math about sums you understand why is it double every time.

Oh yea, of course. Limit sum. My bad.

pein · 2020-05-17 05:41:31

it's only infinite on infinite, sure it seems a lot but it's a slow process over time, I still saw people throw broken tools in pits or leave outside the camp
also it doesn't help you that you got 8 iron and you can make 8+4+2+1=15 shovels out of it, if you need a new engine, you need more than that, and some extra for tools, so its not an instant double it's a slow return for a specific case, requiring work, tool slots, time

when I asked Jason why grapes are so shit even compared to berries, he said that they don't require soil and shears got double the uses so it would be too op (previous update, 21 pip for berries, 5 for grapes)
actually not requiring soil is a 25% bonus on water, since in water worth roughly 4 soil calculated from composting (wild soil is better but gets too far over time)
so a small number only saves a small number

shears having 2x uses but return half the steel since they require to double the investment, the problem is that they got so many dumb uses with no guarantee on return: shearing goose, trees, tortilla or hats and clothes
axes will always chop something, hoes will till a soil, that's final, that has value

the cut even around 30 shears and 30 hoes, after that, shears are worse regarding to iron.
not sure how many shears a city uses, I remember very long lineages had around 8 used up? based on the small broken tools and hard scrapping that needed marking bowls and a tool slot
you won't really make 30 shears, you probably can break 2-3 hoes per hour alone
the funny thing, we got so many water mechanic nerfs, tilling more soil vs tilling less twice doesn't even worth it, it won't save the tools cause the tilling cost is lower in comparison than the soil value you save, also making compost requires water and the soil produced will also need water, so you can actually have too much soil, that's how off-balance we are, back before it was a thing newbies can do, now is a low-efficiency job that is mainly for convenience, if you get soil from afar, it's higher efficiency and you should be able to keep up with water production
too much focus on efficiency kinda ruins the game when viewed trough experienced eyes

I was talking about breaking chisel
not broken, just crackling. The tools get crackling 3x? after the third stage you got one single use and turns into a broken tool
Now, you either take it home so others see that is breaking (and let them break) or break it and take home or break two combine them and store in a pack

in case of chisels, you see it's almost broken, you should use it for the iron mine pick,y ou don't have to use fully new ones, even try to use them a few times before using on the mine pick

Arcurus · 2020-05-17 10:19:18

pein wrote:

...
the funny thing, we got so many water mechanic nerfs, tilling more soil vs tilling less twice doesn't even worth it, it won't save the tools cause the tilling cost is lower in comparison than the soil value you save, also making compost requires water and the soil produced will also need water, so you can actually have too much soil, that's how off-balance we are, back before it was a thing newbies can do, now is a low-efficiency job that is mainly for convenience, if you get ...

thx pein, just the question last life came up if tilling one or twice soils is better. Since i remembered that water is more scare then iron, i recommend using one soil, even if the wiki says other wise. thx for clarification!

Spoonwood · 2020-05-17 11:03:14

Arcurus wrote:

pein wrote:
...
the funny thing, we got so many water mechanic nerfs, tilling more soil vs tilling less twice doesn't even worth it, it won't save the tools cause the tilling cost is lower in comparison than the soil value you save, also making compost requires water and the soil produced will also need water, so you can actually have too much soil, that's how off-balance we are, back before it was a thing newbies can do, now is a low-efficiency job that is mainly for convenience, if you get ...
thx pein, just the question last life came up if tilling one or twice soils is better. Since i remembered that water is more scare then iron, i recommend using one soil, even if the wiki says other wise. thx for clarification!

Two soil tilling took one till for two soil. It doesn't exist anymore. It's either one soil tilled twice or three soil tilled once. In other words, a tilled three soil pile yields a deep tilled row, while a single soil pile yields a shallow tilled row. The wiki is likely outdated.

Arcurus · 2020-05-17 11:06:19

Spoonwood wrote:

Two soil tilling took one till for two soil. It doesn't exist anymore. It's either one soil tilled twice or three soil tilled once. In other words, a tilled three soil pile yields a deep tilled row, while a single soil pile yields a shallow tilled row. The wiki is likely outdated.

oh....

thx for clarification....

pein · 2020-05-17 13:30:44

the three soil is for special biomes, you cant till one soil in desert/jungle/ice, well ice has no reason really, maybe distance, the desert can have glasswort plantation (we did a lot of glasses in Killian town) and jungle can have rubber plantation (sugar doesn't worth it) since you can use trees once, might as well chop them up after used

it applied to one soil till vs two soil till, was already better to till one soil twice after the compost was nerfed to 7 uses and the conversion rates on mine pick and water engines, so its kind of obvious that using 3 soil is not a good action. tool usage was like 0.07 water or something like that, 2 extra soil is half water. since compost produces 21 bowls for 5 water used its roughly worth 0.25 water per soil (berry bowls 2x, 2 carrots plus seed, 1 wheat, 1 water on compost, tool usage), water is the most important component

you can and should get wild wheat, maybe even wild carrot, or use water for a group of wild bushes, but that's not something you can always guarantee

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How Iron Works Now: The Whole Process

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Re: How Iron Works Now: The Whole Process

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