Update broken cant get more iron

DiscardedSlinky · 2020-03-29 15:31:11

Why does every aspect of the game need to be frustratingly difficult?

Challenging games are fun, but even they have simple parts to them so it's more about the challenge than the grind. It seems every week some new annoying mechanic is added to limit and add frustration to players. I can't IMAGINE a new player understanding a single thing about the past few updates. Learning the game is hard enough, now you have to memorize insane magic gameplay mechanics to simply just survive. It's so anti-fun. Smithing is hard enough, crafting is hard enough. Why are the simple materials for that stuff being locked behind this horrible well system ???

I've enjoyed the past month of this game. It's been chill and relaxing to play because I am not forced to fix every town I go to because that's a vets duty. Why can't it just be fun?

Legs · 2020-03-29 15:38:17

To me, these constant constraints on resources pushes the meta towards foraging. No iron? Use wild soil and water to farm milkweed for stone hoes. Or take morti's approach. Water wild berry bushes with goose ponds and subsist on sustainable wild food.

Any decent player can run into the untouched wilderness and survive to 60. With the recent homeland update reproducing under those circumstances becomes much more difficult. When the family's territory is so restricted wild resources become much less sustainable. It forces the classical model, forming a settlement to support greater populations. Eve can't feed everyone with wild berries so you have to plant more. The poor family's runner baby that goes to live somewhere else is no longer viable.

Here two axioms emerge. Necessary resources are finite and we have no alternatives. Again it becomes a game about desperately drawing out the inevitable. We've been there before plenty of times. Before long people will figure out a new meta and normal life will resume. Then? More constraints.

Morti · 2020-03-29 16:17:24

Legs wrote:

Or take morti's approach. Water wild berry bushes with goose ponds and subsist on sustainable wild food.

For real, the berries mean food for sheep, bait for rabbits and food for us.
Grow some carrots, or gather the burdock, but don't eat it, use it to bait rabbits, make backpack and four pouches, from milkweed grown from natural soil near ponds, tilled with skewers, or collected, and turn all the clay of that pond into bowls, keep those bowls near the wild berry bushes, fill them up when the bushes respawn all berries in 10 minutes, water with your pouches. If your town has carts or horse carts, collect the berry bowls when you have a large supply and bring them back to feed the sheep.

Sure, it's simple, there's not much more to it than that, but from that we can sustain a town without using the water from the well, so, no need for iron.

It buys families time to figure out how to get the iron, or, just to sit around the campfire and appreciate their children.
What more do you want out of life? Rockets to the Moon? At this rate, we probably won't have that for five years, if ever.

I'd love to take a rocket to Mars though.
It's always been my dream, to die on Mars; to be one of the first organisms to give my life to a new world.
... we really need to stop finding excuses not to begin colonization of that planet.
Humanity could use the inspiration.
Life, could use a good trial.

Elsayal · 2020-03-29 16:20:25

Yeah, I want the rocket !
NOW !

DestinyCall · 2020-03-29 16:43:16

Elsayal wrote:

Yeah, I want the rocket !
NOW !

Jason doesn't trust us with rockets because we don't lock up our iron supply. Maybe someday, if we behave and start playing his game correctly.

But not today.

Psykout · 2020-03-29 16:52:05

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

Why does every aspect of the game need to be frustratingly difficult?
Challenging games are fun, but even they have simple parts to them so it's more about the challenge than the grind. It seems every week some new annoying mechanic is added to limit and add frustration to players. I can't IMAGINE a new player understanding a single thing about the past few updates. Learning the game is hard enough, now you have to memorize insane magic gameplay mechanics to simply just survive. It's so anti-fun. Smithing is hard enough, crafting is hard enough. Why are the simple materials for that stuff being locked behind this horrible well system ???
I've enjoyed the past month of this game. It's been chill and relaxing to play because I am not forced to fix every town I go to because that's a vets duty. Why can't it just be fun?

The thing I think is funny about that... In the past Jason seemed adamant about not doing certain QoL changes because it would be confusing to newcomers. That taking away freedoms and actions would be confusing and frustrating...

My mother when I was younger taught me that is better to want/desire someone (in regards to relationships) than it is to need someone. I realized when I got older that principle related to almost all aspects of life. I wan't money, I don't need money. I want nice things, but I don't need those things. I want to make others in my life to be happy, I don't need to do it.

The thing is, people act differently when something is deemed an absolute necessity. They lie and they cheat. They manipulate others and systems, they ignore empathy and often lack trust in others. They freely give up parts of their humanity to fulfill their greed, and rationalize it behind false sense of necessity.

Jason hinges very hard on every single thing being a necessary part to survival. At it's root, the game does need a challenge to function, but where you draw the lines in the sand is the big discussion. At some point, actions done out desire should be able to replace some of the actions of necessity. Recently dyed clothes came up, that they at first were everywhere but now are barely made. I don't think that it's because its a meh thing to do, just that there is so much necessity forced into the gameplay, that no one desires to make them. Photos, paint, fruit trees, rose gardens... They are so hard to accomplish because of resource requirements or specializations locks in order to keep that necessity machine turning.

DestinyCall · 2020-03-29 17:32:38

Dodge wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
We do care about resources. Gathering and building and making tech is 90% of this game. You can do anything without the right tools. I don't understand why you think we don't care about iron. When a village has an abundance of iron by the forge it means than many players made an effort to gather up a bunch of the stuff and bring it home with them.
Of course we care.
There is no need to remove all the free iron from the game to force us to care about each piece as if it was the village's last girl child. That is overkill.
No choice making, no discussions or important decisions.
Your idea of caring is making sure there is enough ressources but not actually how everyone is using them.

Yes. We care about iron because it allows use to do many things. We have freedom of choice. More iron = more options. Less iron = fewer options.

Our choices get more and more narrow and significantly LESS interesting when critical resources are in short supply. It forces us to play in min-max mode and discourages experimentation and learning, because we can't survive any extra waste. The narrower our margin of failure, the less tolerant we can be of other people's freedom of choice. The only right way to play becomes the most efficient because security becomes more important that personal liberty.

Dodge wrote:

Gathering ressources is not interesting, not really, choosing what you do with these ressources, making decisions, discussing with others to make these choices, actually having an organized society, roles, leaders etc.
Without limited ressources it's just a crafting game, plenty of everything so why have any interaction with anyone about what we should do with these ressources, right?

OHOL is a crafting game, Dodge. It is a social game too. But it is definitely a crafting game. And it is important that we are able to craft things in a game where crafting is the primary gameplay loop. If we have no iron, we have no tools. If we have no tools, we have no work. If we have no work, we have nothing to talk about. The gameplay loop breaks and life in the village grinds to a halt.

You want people to work together and communicate with each other about resource allocation. That is the core problem you want to address. But you can't fix that problem by increasing resource scarcity. Because if resources are limited, choices are even more limited. There is nothing to discuss, because there are no interesting decisions to make. We must do the most efficient thing to keep the village alive for another generation AND NOTHING ELSE. That doesn't create an interesting discussion. If I am born into a village without any iron, I don't need to ask anyone else what to do. I know that we need more iron. The only question is how to get more iron. What else are we going to talk about?

Dodge wrote:

Just go in a village and waste a bunch of ressources nobody will care, go to another village and steal anything that is freely available and watch their reaction, how are you able to easily steal in the first place? they should care right? Is there even a reason to steal if there is plenty of everything?
But they care right so probably cant easily steal their stuff.
And that kid had to make a though choice i'm sure when he used some steel from the 5 full stacks available.
Why nobody talking?

Okay, this is the real heart of the problem that you are trying to fix. You want people to notice when someone is harming their village. You want people to act as a community, instead of acting as individuals. I can totally get behind that. We need better ways to communicate with each other and let other people know what the village needs and what it already has in abundance. We need community leaders who have the authority to negotiate trade agreements and resource exchange with our neighbors. We need the ability to see further than five tiles ahead of ourselves, so we will notice when that kid starts wasting all our iron in the middle of town and someone will be able to curse him if he is a griefer or educate him in proper smithing protocol, if he is just new and experimenting.

There are many ways to encourage people to come together as a community and approach our problems as a group, instead of isolated individuals. I would strongly support the addition of a job board and changes to the hierarchy system that ensure our villages always have at single leader we can call upon to make the hard choices. Anything to make it easier (and faster) to coordinate small groups.

But you know what doesn't work? Resource scarcity.

Because the problem isn't that we do not CARE about lumps of iron enough to lock them up and prevent anyone from using them without permission of the village council. The problem is that we can't form a village council in the first place. You want politics and we just don't have time for it. There's an iron shortage to deal with right now.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 17:58:41

DestinyCall wrote:

...

"Our choices get more and more narrow and significantly LESS interesting when critical resources are in short supply. "

The less you have of it the more your decision matters, so you think more about it instead of being in "mindless crafting mode"

Just look at some rich people blowing 20k at the casino in a night like they just went to the store to buy candy.

"We need better ways to communicate"

If there's nothing to talk about it doesn't matter that you can write with 99 characters wont change anything

Anyway we already had this " More iron = more options. " and it didn't work.

Now you're telling that it does work???

If there's no reason for a leader why have one?

So a player can start bossing everyone and eventually get stabbed because he's useless and annoying?

There's a whole hierarchy system that is fully functionnal why nobody uses it except for meme stuff?

You can add every bit of content you want like a "job board" but if no organization is required in the first place it's completely useless.

It will end with notes on it that says a bunch of crap because nobody cares.

DestinyCall · 2020-03-29 18:32:15

Yes, if iron is very scarce, I need to be extra careful with what I do with the three pieces of iron that I managed to gather in my life. But i'm not going to ask for anyone else's opinion about what THEY want to do it with. I'm just going to do it myself, so I know it gets done correctly. That sounds like the opposite of working together.

Dodge wrote:

Anyway we already had this " More iron = more options. " and it didn't work.
Now you're telling that it does work???

Not sure what you mean by "didn't work". What do you want to see happen? How do you define failure? I think the game is more fun when we have more options. Don't you?

I'm not trying to argue that the game is or was in a perfect state before iron scarcity. This game has been through many changes over the years, many of them with conflicting goals and results.

I'm arguing that your proposed solution will not achieve your desired results. You are making assumptions about what people will or will not do that do not match with the in-game realities.

Dodge wrote:

If there's no reason for a leader why have one?
So a player can start bossing everyone and eventually get stabbed because he's useless and annoying?
There's a whole hierarchy system that is fully functional why nobody uses it except for meme stuff?
You can add every bit of content you want like a "job board" but if no organization is required in the first place it's completely useless.
It will end with notes on it that says a bunch of crap because nobody cares.

Yes. These are the questions that we need to be addressing to get to the right solution. This is the real heart of the problem.

Our villages have no leaders. The hierarchy system is under-utilized. We live in disorganized chaos instead of managed community.

Limiting iron will not encourage social organization. It never has and it never will. Because too much iron isn't the real problem. The problem is communication. It is HARD to communicate with other people in this social game. It is HARD to organize small groups and coordinate our actions. It is even harder to organize large groups, especially if you use the vanilla client and can't even see or hear most of the people around you. There is a high communication barrier that must be overcome to trade with other people or communicate your desires. Most of your life, you are fighting against a text limit that ... means you ... have to ... talk like ... this all .. the time. Making signs is a labor of an entire lifetime. There are no books. No way to easily pass your knowledge on to the next generation without investing a big chunk of your current life to making paper from scratch or building a waystone.

You want to FORCE people to overcome this barrier by making it too hard to do anything else unless they put in the effort to communicate. My point is that many people would be HAPPY to communicate with each other if it wasn't so damn hard. Stop trying to force people to use broken game mechanics. It's not that we are too lazy to talk to other people or too rich to care about the village's precious resources. It's that we don't have the time to mess around with slow and poorly implemented communication methods when there is work to be done and very few decisions that actually require a community-level response.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 18:52:36

DestinyCall wrote:

It's that we don't have the time to mess around with slow and poorly implemented communication methods

Please... dont use the argument of time, you had plenty of it when there was big villages and nothing interesting hapenned, it's clearly not the issue but you keep insisting on it.

I remember all those lives with plenty of everything and players just doing a bunch of meaningless stuff each one doing his solo thing like it's not even a multiplayer game... sad.

With the current food drain it's clearly not a time issue i played a life in the bugged messy update and even with close to no iron the village was doing perfectly fine and i consumed (and produced) a bit of food while having plenty of time to talk to everybody willing to listen.

This time there was actually something to talk about compared to the other meaningless plentiful big villages lives.

Maybe you're just stressing out and want to do a million things in a life hence why you dont think you have time to communicate.

Ilka · 2020-03-29 19:01:28

Dodge, whatever you say, the game has become boring and tedious. There is nothing good about being artificially limited. It's just frustrating that I can't do any work, although I know how to do it.

The world that Jason created is terribly illogical and full of invisible walls:
"You can't even break the leaf in the wrong biomes",
"You can use only a few tools",
"Even for 10 generations (about 200 years) you will not learn another language",
"You can have children only near your family well",
and now: "You can find iron only near your well, but only a little"
"If you eat all fruit from a wild bush, this bush will die."
Seriously? How do wells affect fertility in real life and who water the wild bushes?

I get the impression that you don't play too much. Do you really think we will call a meeting to decide what to do with one piece of iron? And this is supposed to be interesting? Sooner we die of hunger than take a group decision.

Anything that is forced on will not work. So leadership doesn't work. What's weird about that?

Finally, if you tell people that less is more, you should become a politician (you just have to work out, because you haven't convinced anyone yet).

DestinyCall · 2020-03-29 19:02:23

If you want to talk to other people and coordinate their actions, no one is stopping you from playing that way, Dodge. Become the mayor and order people to gather more iron and make more compost. Form a hierarchy of followers so they can all hear you talk.

But you are going to have a hard time getting people to listen to you if you don't value those "meaningless stuff" that they enjoy doing. We all play this game in our own ways. It is sad that you can't appreciate that aspect of the game. Some of us enjoy exploring the wilds. Others like to craft complex things, like radios and cars. Still others want to make all the unique yum foods. And other people just want to go fishing or breed dogs. These activities are exactly the kind of things that breath life into the world of OHOL. Choices inspire people. They encourage people to keep playing, life after life, for the sheer joy of discovery and doing new things and meeting new people and goofing around together. Having fun. Playing together.

You want people to stop having fun and play the game your way. It isn't the right approach. You need to find ways to make working together fun, instead of breaking all of our toys.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 19:49:12

DestinyCall wrote:

...

I would really be interested in seeing your recorded lives i feel like half of what you say to me is plain bullshit.

Feels like you're romanticizing stuff or maybe you truly enjoy exploring the same generated wilderness.

Half of it is solo stuff doing you own grind like stardew valley what's the point in playing a multiplayer game at this point, the other half is an imaginary game that actually never happens in reality.

Either way if you dont understand that there has to be a balance between stardew valley like activities and actually civilization, survival, decision making etc i cant do anything for you.

You keep repeating that this game is roblox or something...at one point i will stop listening.

DestinyCall · 2020-03-29 19:53:20

I feel the same way, Dodge. I have no idea what game you want to be playing right now, but it doesn't sound like OHOL to me.

fug · 2020-03-29 19:57:48

Dodge wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
...
I would really be interested in seeing your recorded lives i feel like half of what you say to me is plain bullshit.
Feels like you're romanticizing stuff or maybe you truly enjoy exploring the same generated wilderness.
Half of it is solo stuff doing you own grind like stardew valley what's the point in playing a multiplayer game at this point, the other half is an imaginary game that actually never happens in reality.
Either way if you dont understand that there has to be a balance between stardew valley like activities and actually civilization, survival, decision making etc i cant do anything for you.
You keep repeating that this game is roblox or something...at one point i will stop listening.

I was specifically playing only to have family fishing adventures before the last water nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R26u2qAQ57s&t=1s

Was pretty good stuff but you're too tied up with reducing the options for the sake of reducing stuff. Racial specialization absolutely ruined stuff like dyeing clothes which has traditionally been pretty popular I mean you can even look at different threads asking about it.

Are you sure you're not the one talking bullshit? Everyone has different experiences (thankfully) because the ohol you're talking about is shit Dodge. The worst updates to the game are these needless restrictions and nerfs which remove player agency and force the game to become more bland as a result.

Gogo · 2020-03-29 20:03:15

Psykout wrote:

At some point, actions done out desire should be able to replace some of the actions of necessity.

Yeah, desire is the key word. But here's a thing, many people don't desire anything in this game. Jason want to give them something to do by forcing them to solve neccesary things. But I noticed people solving them pretty quickly and many goes back to being bored, no matter how many new updates we have. And problems are ineffective, I mean with each new problem there's also like 30% more frustration among players and only 5% of better social interactions in game.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 20:26:59

"I was specifically playing only to have family fishing adventures"

Yeah sure let's make stardew valley 2 or why not the next roblox/minecraft, let's copy the fuck out of them and make OHOL into a succesfull mindless chill type game, they made money right? time to cash out dolla dolla bills yall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R26u2qAQ57s&t=1s

So boring i had to skip most of it, if it wasn't for the commentary probably would have skipped the whole vid.

Psykout · 2020-03-29 20:45:58

Gogo wrote:

Psykout wrote:
At some point, actions done out desire should be able to replace some of the actions of necessity.
Yeah, desire is the key word. But here's a thing, many people don't desire anything in this game. Jason want to give them something to do by forcing them to solve necessary things. But I noticed people solving them pretty quickly and many goes back to being bored, no matter how many new updates we have. And problems are ineffective, I mean with each new problem there's also like 30% more frustration among players and only 5% of better social interactions in game.

I would agree that those without any ambitions when playing a life aren't going to be the ones trying to solve the problems put forth by Jason anyways. By adding in restrictions, those that want to just chill and maybe paint a room during a life, have little room to take on non essential tasks. Veterans that normally have to solve problems every life can never take a break because its rare for a new player to attempt to take a bite out of the complex tasks. There is little breathing room, through out the evolution of a village/town, and the community is not growing because of that. It's an odd stagnation of retention vs burnout. You want to make steel tools feel special, and mining to actually be a thing that happens. That great, all behind that. But if the way you fix that hurts all stages of the game heavily instead of just targeting the boredom of lack of end game then its harder to be on board.

fug · 2020-03-29 20:50:20

You complained for how long about smaller family units and private property and as soon as something like that exists you bitch that the game is just stardew valley. I'd say I have a hunch you just like to complain but it's been four days of this back and forth.

The variety of things to do is a good thing. The PARENTING part of the game should exist too and not just be gl bb and ignore them your entire life. I think the issue is ohol isn't the game for you at the end of the day.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 20:56:09

fug wrote:

You complained for how long about smaller family units and private property and as soon as something like that exists you bitch that the game is just stardew valley. I'd say I have a hunch you just like to complain but it's been four days of this back and forth.

If you really think this was a private property and players where being a family you really have no idea how the game could be.

Legs · 2020-03-29 21:19:00

These changes force gameplay into the domain of cheaters and meta-slaves. Heavily restricting iron for example. New players will NOT be able to learn smithing if metal is precious. In poor towns where a few pieces of iron are precious nobody will trust a noob to use it. Ridiculous. Imagine bakeries where new players are cursed because they critically mismanaged water by accidentally making bread instead of pie.

DestinyCall · 2020-03-29 22:12:41

Dodge wrote:

"I was specifically playing only to have family fishing adventures"
Yeah sure let's make stardew valley 2 or why not the next roblox/minecraft, let's copy the fuck out of them and make OHOL into a succesfull mindless chill type game, they made money right? time to cash out dolla dolla bills yall.

Gotta say, I lose all respect for anyone who uses Stardew Valley as an example of bad game design. That game is an indie gem and deserves respect. And Minecraft isn't just an incredibly successful game that made a lot of money. It is a really awesome game that does a ton of things really well. It was also originally designed by just one guy with a cool idea and has spawned an entire new genre of block-world sandbox games trying to be as cool as the original. Never played Roblox, so I don't have an opinion on that one.

I would love to see a little more Stardew Valley in OHOL, but I'm not looking to turn OHOL into another game. I like One Hour One Life as it is. I want it to get better and more fun without losing its unique flavor and identity. I want it to be the very best parenting and civilization building game on the market. I want as many people to have played OHOL (and loved it) as have played Minecraft and Stardew Valley combined. I want Jason to be as successful as Notch and keep working on OHOL as long as he wants with as much help as he desires to make it the best game ever.

I think that would be awesome.

Morti · 2020-03-29 22:57:42

Dodge wrote:

...

fug wrote:

...

Dodge wrote:

...

fug wrote:

...

Something weird going on here, but, overall I have to say I disagree with, your lines of argumentation, Dodge.

A lot of the points you are trying to make, are subjective ones, like, things being boring or not interesting or people wasting their time.
That's your view of it because, you, want something else.
And that's okay.
But if you want other people to do interesting things with you, then you should be trying to convince them, not, trying to convince Jason to make changes to the game to force us into particular situations, if, that is in fact, what you have done.

I really don't care too much for for reading these, tired, back and forths.
You're boring, Dodge.
That's my opinion.

Based on what I'm reading, I also find your vision for the future of this game, disgusting, to be quite honest.
I put a lot of time into this game, because, well, it was beautiful. Now you want to make that beauty ugly, for what?
Shits and giggles? Because you, are bored? You, want us to encourage Jason, to get us to fuck with ourselves?
To give up the trust we've had in each other, for over two years now?

That is not interesting, it's sickening.
You, have the plague.
Jason has had it too, and, I don't doubt his may reemerge, but he sorted a lot of the problems; things that I, and many others, felt were problems, he sorted those out. Please, sort yours out. Try to see that what you want, is not necessarily what I want, and there are a lot of things, I didn't know, that I didn't want, until Jason encouraged them, with comments, and added them, with mechanics.

I do not, want private property.
I do not want trade.
I don't want mobs, or leaders or royals.

You using the word theft, doesn't even make sense, and I don't want it to make sense.
Not here, not ever.

Everytime, we start off, with a blank slate, and we all contribute to the world, from there on out.
Some days I spend 20 hours in a row, sometimes I have played for 30 hours in a row, without sleep, drinking less coffee, so I had to get away from the keyboard less, eating less food, just to avoid 3 minutes straight, of being away from the game, so that I could get back to work, as soon as possible, on whatever project, I was working on, for everyone. Before it was big projects, every family mattered, and there was nothing outside of the needs of just the family I was born to, but those became less important, as I saw each part of the big picture.

I can never unsee that picture now.

I don't want you, encouraging Jason, to break up the puzzle, that we have put together over these years.

Obviously, it's not complete though, is it? Otherwise you'd feel as though you were in the right place already.
But you don't, and I think that's pretty clear.
You still want to complete your corner.

Well, now what?

It doesn't seem like we're working on the same puzzle, but we are.

I might even say we are not approaching the middle, from the same sides, yet, we've been playing together, all this time. At least, since you arrived at the table.

--

I don't want to go from being your daughter one life, to killing your family, minutes later.

I just don't have it in me, to let my view, flip like that, any number of times in a day.
And I don't want it. Not as long as the same world, persists, from one life to the next.

We're essentially the same people, from one hour to the next, taking turns, swapping places, I don't understand why you would want that, in a game with, any, sort of competition. Any sort of distinction, between people, is really meaningless, if you play enough. So, why encourage that at all?

I only, ever, want to love you, Dodge.
No matter who you are.

Dodge · 2020-03-30 05:15:47

DestinyCall wrote:

Gotta say, I lose all respect for anyone who uses Stardew Valley as an example of bad game design. That game is an indie gem and deserves respect.

Oh no i never said it was a bad game i love that game i have more than a 100 hours on it, i was playing the first harvest moon games back in the day some of my favorites, they are trash now but that's another story.

But that's just not OHOL.

There's some elements of it sure, sort of, but that's about it.

Morti wrote:

...

That's cute Morti but in the human history of civilizations a lot happenned and we are exploring this, the good, the bad and the ugly.

DestinyCall · 2020-03-30 05:18:00

Dodge wrote:

Oh no i never said it was a bad game i love that game i have more than a 100 hours on it, i was playing the first harvest moon games back in the day some of my favorites, they are trash now but that's another story.

That's good. You had me really worried for a minute there.

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#73 2020-03-29 22:57:42

Re: Update broken cant get more iron

#74 2020-03-30 05:15:47

Re: Update broken cant get more iron

#75 2020-03-30 05:18:00

Re: Update broken cant get more iron

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