Question time

antking:]# · 2020-03-22 23:38:33

How many Berries does a village need? simple question but I have seen towns loaded with random patches of (domestic) berry bushes every where and when ever I try to remove a patch or two, every one starts panicking,

I know that Pien has crunched the numbers already, but I don't remember which post it was...

and spoonwood please stay away, I don't want you to make this post about how bad the game is by twisting my words

Last edited by antking:]# (2020-03-22 23:39:39)

Spoonwood · 2020-03-22 23:44:30

Apparently I can change what other people's posts are about. I don't think it works that way.

MrGold · 2020-03-22 23:57:22

Well it depends on how much the village can take at a time first a simple lay out would be good on the four directions like 12 berry bushes on each side for like big town smaller towns would be like 6 but i stick with my 12 because you but you don't need that many. But they do waste lots of water over time do ignore people who panic it's for the best they don't understand how much water goose berry brushes waste

testo · 2020-03-23 00:03:43

A decently well civilized town should use the grand total of zero domestic berry bushes per person up to like 20 people.

jinbaili83 · 2020-03-23 00:04:51

Cogito · 2020-03-23 00:10:15

Berries are a stable food source, that are very forgiving to neglect and only require some mindless work every now and then.

If you use them efficiently (making mutton?) you don't need very many at all, but the cost is that someone who understand how to be efficient is tending them and maintaining food supplies.

Otherwise, when the game starts beeping at people they run to the berries because they know there will be some food there, and like a murder of crows they will strip the bushes bare.

No other food provides the same certainty of supply and immediate lifeline that berries supply.

Of topic but - can we get birds in the game? and a scarecrow to scare them off?

MrGold · 2020-03-23 00:30:10

Cogito wrote:

Berries are a stable food source, that are very forgiving to neglect and only require some mindless work every now and then.
If you use them efficiently (making mutton?) you don't need very many at all, but the cost is that someone who understand how to be efficient is tending them and maintaining food supplies.
Otherwise, when the game starts beeping at people they run to the berries because they know there will be some food there, and like a murder of crows they will strip the bushes bare.
No other food provides the same certainty of supply and immediate lifeline that berries supply.
Of topic but - can we get birds in the game? and a scarecrow to scare them off?

You also got milk you can get a lot over time buckets full of milk feed a lot just requires 1 dried corn so it's pretty good

Cogito · 2020-03-23 00:40:38

MrGold wrote:

Cogito wrote:
Berries are a stable food source, that are very forgiving to neglect and only require some mindless work every now and then.
If you use them efficiently (making mutton?) you don't need very many at all, but the cost is that someone who understand how to be efficient is tending them and maintaining food supplies.
Otherwise, when the game starts beeping at people they run to the berries because they know there will be some food there, and like a murder of crows they will strip the bushes bare.
No other food provides the same certainty of supply and immediate lifeline that berries supply.
Of topic but - can we get birds in the game? and a scarecrow to scare them off?

You also got milk you can get a lot over time buckets full of milk feed a lot just requires 1 dried corn so it's pretty good

This is my point though - you need someone to milk the cows, and get the buckets and the bowls and the corn and the water.

Then you need all the babies to know there is milk and that they should drink it first.

With berries, everyone just runs to the well and picks the bushes, and BOOM no death for me right now.

Berries require no forethought, which is why it's a good thing they are so water inefficient.

Spoonwood · 2020-03-23 01:20:01

Cogito wrote:

Berries require no forethought, which is why it's a good thing they are so water inefficient.

They take 12 minutes to grow the first time, and then 8 minutes to grow after that.

Morti · 2020-03-23 01:48:21

Lately (the last 4 months) I've been enjoying these wider roads.
Boxes can go on the roads, tables can go on the roads, cisterns can go on the roads.

The cisterns really should be in line, and unobstructed between each other, so, it's easy to move buckets of water, out from the wells, by standing between the cisterns with buckets. They should at least, radiate outward in 4 directions from the well, and perhaps be spaced out more than this, but in this first picture, in an average sized town, when 30-90 people are online, and there are 7-20 people per family, probably 4 of those 3x3s should be gooseberries. But you could certainly get away with only 1 of them being gooseberries, IF, you are keeping up with the other food types.

Here is an example with just the 4 roads radiating out from the well being wider.

Being able to eat onions, peppers, corn, carrots, and berries, and working with the yum mechanic, really changes things. Layouts should encourage diversity. We, need to encourage variety. 9, 18, 27 or 36 domestic berry bushes for now. The slow decay of the berry bushes is a good buffer, and they are still needed for mutton, bait, and compost, which has always been kinda silly. Sheep don't really give a shit for berries, or carrots. The bowl of berries and carrots, should be interpreted as a place holder, for a future, alternative, more realistic, solution. Perhaps we should have to grow wheat, in sheep pens, and they eat them, the way they eat rows of carrots, if they aren't penned.

Or, a new form of grass, could grow on prairie or grassland tiles, and muflon and domestic sheep, that are moved onto them, could eat their way through it, reproducing as they go. The, more sensible alternatives, are numerous, but as long as the sheep, people and rabbits, all consume berries, it would only hurt clothing production and food consumption, even more, if players temperatures are not kept warmer, away from fires, as a result of an abundance of clothing.

As long as people spend a lot of time in town, people who are really serious about mass producing bowls of berries, should probably be going out and collecting them from wild bushes that naturally produce them more. And never, never never never, remove wild bushes near a town for any sort of reason. That's just dumb. If your town is located near a grassland, you should be planning, around, the wild berry bushes, not over them. No building or road, is worth taking away a naturally regenerating food source. If you want a 9x9 building, with a 49 tile floor, try to work it into place where it is not necessary to remove a wild bush to do so.

Those wild berries are not just free food on their own, they are insurance, forever, no matter what situation the town runs into.

Cogito · 2020-03-23 02:03:35

Spoonwood wrote:

Cogito wrote:
Berries require no forethought, which is why it's a good thing they are so water inefficient.
They take 12 minutes to grow the first time, and then 8 minutes to grow after that.

I mean for the consumer. The food is just there, ready for the taking. As long as they have been tended (which I think is a mindless task, so everyone can do it) then the food on them doesn't rot or disappear.

Pretty much every other food source requires more commitment to maintain, at the benefit of being much more water efficient.

pein · 2020-03-23 02:09:53

zero, only the sheep needs it, you waste a lot of water on berries and the effectiveness is very low
also not true that it's good food for kids, pies are still better cause it's a multi bite food, if you don't want to overeat then carrot pies are a decent middle ground

you can't really overcome the planting, maybe if you put a lot of flooring down early then they won't overplant, I managed to stop them around 3x2x4 which is 24 bush, still lower then the "default" 9x4=36
the more the population the more bushes they plant and digging it out costing water
it's a bad habit which we cannot overcome now, it became the meta, Eve kids already plant it and if you focus on the smithing then you can't really stop them if you don't then the family dies without tools

the only advantage of berries is that they don't require tilling, which means that each time you refresh a bush, you save one tilling
since he water nerfs, tilling is way cheaper than water, so I don't think it's an issue, you don't really need to save iron, with an unlimited map you can get tons of iron from nearby veins

you would need around 3-4 bushes per person to live on berries only if I remember correctly
this would mean that you put soil and water right away on it and pick it down right away

bushes don't grow berries without interacting so it's still a misconception that more bushes mean more food
it's the same amount of food per units of water, wheater you got 10 bushes or 20 bushes, it's only more work

each time you don't pick down the bush you delay it so that bush is more of a decoration than a real use to the city

planting a new bush takes more time than fixing an existing one
the initial growth is 4 minutes and the regrowth is 8
so if anyone ever plants a bush before picking every other bush clean, watering and soiling it, it's like griefing
even if you consider berries as food, you should only plant when every single bush is on the regrowth phase

generally, if people pick it down fast, noobs plant more cause they think they doing a favour, and I even saw people wanting to kill for it when I don't want to let them plant more or fix the ones on edges or mention that is too much already

that being said, for a town of 12 people, if one player does the watering and soiling process, even then he can't do alone more than 18 bushes so really no reason to do that 3x3x4 setup
even if he can do it, it's an annoying thing to do, and rather than adding more bushes, you want to increase the food variety and effectiveness than to plant more bushes

especially with high population, it will deplete the wells way too quick

and if you run on pond water, it's way more effective to do pies using wild wheat, rabbits, mutton

actually soil became more expensive as well, so collecting wild soil is better than composting, that just a convenience, and since it needs water to use up the soil, too many compost piles also waste the water

people don't really care to teach all this, or they don't even know properly
the correct way would be:
plant only 10-16 bushes further from well
everybody picks berries into bowls and stores it that way
every time the bushes are brown you put soil and water on it (if the town still has water)
every bowl goes to feeding sheep (some can go for compost but not too many)
only feed lambs, shear the sheeps who just had a lamb, kill the naked sheep, make pies

ideally, no one should eat berries at all, maybe if it's an emergency, but that's exactly why the city should produce other food so it wouldn't be any emergency

I think jason changed the food bonus that it will go down with generations, that being said, small multi bite foods are worse now, like popcorn or berries

we had quite a few comparisons on foods
anything that is good on water efficiency, it will be good, mostly meats like turkey, carnitas (possibly from wild boar), eggs, milk etc.
but you can also collect wild wheat and make pies using rabbits (and burdock for bait) or mutton (possibly wild meat), the distance will be an issue eventually anyway
the water nerfs on refill speed and amount made things worse than before
food still doesn't decay so you should use the water the most effective way, work doesn't really matter, back before we had plenty of water so converting into the soil and using it to keep bushes alive and spread huge farms wasn't an issue. with the race restrictions, you can't really plan after Newcomen, even if you manage to get rubber and struggle through the 30 phases of it, you still won't get oil or not too much

so the best way to exploit your water is just to empty all your well content into a cistern then get some ropes, upgrade to deep well, store your water in cisterns or buckets asap, so people will realize that the well needs to upgrade.

"Boiling the frog: eatBonus now starts at 2 for Eve and decays to 0 (was 1) with a half life of 4 generations."

that's a 40% nerf to berries since it gave you 5 pips, now it's 3
it's still multi bite technically cause a bush has 7 berries
so 7x5=35 for a water
now 7x3=21 per water

popcorn was 4x3 now is 4x1

just compared: you can make 4 corn with 1 water, feed piglets, get 4 pigs for 1 water(plus tilling the soil), each of them 10x4 food. the only downside is that needs a lot of bowls and hot coals which means kindling and tool use, but it's still 160 food for 1 water if you bring wild soil for the corn, seed cost nothing. That's 8x better than eating berries.

raw carrot is 5x5 per water then for each 6x5 carrots, a seed row costing extra water
so 30 carrots 7 water, 30x5=150 pips for 7 water, 21 pip per water, same as water but more errors, 1 carrot 0.23 water
carrot pies need 2.23 water for 80 pips which is 35.87 pip per water

6 berries which is 0.85 water and 1 carrot 0.23 water, 4 mutton meat cost you 1.08 water
cooked directly gives 4x10 food which is 37 pip per water
and in pies one extra water for wheat, one extra for pie
13x4x4=224 pips for 3.08 water which is 72.72 pip per water if planting the wheat, 107 with wild wheat

side product is the straw and the poop which makes compost
the compost is costing 1.08 for the berry bowl, 1 more water and 1.08 for sheep food
21 bowls of soil for 3 water, where 2 bowls go for berries and 0.4 for 2 carrots (2 till), 1 for wheat
so net profit less than 18 bowls of soil for 3 water which means 1 water bowl=6 soil bowls

a wild soil pile is 30 bowls so 5 water worth if you dig it out then 5 more so 1 bucket of water worth for transporting 20 baskets
but making a compost each soil will cost 0.16 water and each compost pile will need further 21 water to be used up
you can save a tiny bit of water if use cabbage for compost but you gotta cut it in time

I don't remember how much is the tool usage, but I don't think iron is a problem

Sorry for the detour but I guess 40% nerf on bushes is huge
And the only reason people started planting bushes, was when we had a buff from 60 min to 8 min regrowth and only used water which was available on every pond or every 40 tile spring

I'm kinda tired of berry meta, and the above calculations show how annoying is the new situation
Water is a basic resource, so newbies need it, but since the race restrictions made it a bottleneck, it's the most precious product at the same time
The work of people doesn't matter as much as before, you can fix bushes all you want, it's a wasteful activity in the end

Now I'm not sure how much a tilling worth, but if it's like 0.1 water (just think about getting iron, smithing it into a hoe and use 1x for each soil up to 40x), 10 refreshes on a bush would mean you save water which would be 80 minutes I'm sure that the 3x3x4 setup of berries most bushes are under that when the well runs out cause people eat from each bush and leave one so it won't die, but basically only a few bushes got fixed.

I would seriously suggest that Jason nerfs berries so they die out after a few uses cause overplanting bushes causes a lot of issues for veterans, and newbies don't care, they think they do you a favour. If the bushes would die out then replanting would be a viable option.
Either that or they should regenerate some berries cause the misconception runs too deep, but honestly, I'm tired of berry meta.
And I guess Newcommens go the same way so now it would be possible that people pick down the bush, regrows, then after 4 times it dies out.
But even so, old habits never die.

So the final answer: picking those wild bushes and limit the berries as much as possible. Tell people not to eat them, even lock it up.
Lock up corn so it will dry out and eat carnitas as the main food (not sure on stew). Go for milk ASAP.

edit:corn is 4 per water so 0.25 and carnitas 160 per water

Last edited by pein (2020-03-23 10:41:50)

Morti · 2020-03-23 02:36:56

pein wrote:

you would need around 3-4 bushes per person to live on berries only if I remember correctly

Was 180 or so food at near ideal temp, throughout a lifetime. That was 5 food per berry, 6 berries per bush, 6 bushes per person.
Now it's 3 food * 6 berries * 10 bushes.

At least the water has stopped boiling, but, the berry frog has been thoroughly cooked.

pein · 2020-03-23 10:56:09

I mean you won't get ideal temp

The calculations are for 8 minutes to survive
So if you lose 1 pip per 5 seconds, a bush is enough for 35 sec with 2 bonus (3+2)*7
8 min is 480 seconds, that's 96 calories, that's almost 20 berries in case you water, soil a bush and pick it down right away when it grows, repeat
Sure you get clothing but you also need some time to fix those bushes

Also is 7 berries for bush not 6
3x7=21 then you need 4.5 bushes on full speed to sustain a naked person without overeating for 8 minutes where the bushes grow back

so for the 9x4 bush setup is 8 persons would be alive barely if you can afford the soil and water costs, that's real bad, planting more bushes doesn't change the output per minute

planting bushes so it feeds a person for life is all wrong, then you don't get any refresh on bushes, and you assume feeding each person without any work

cachinnus · 2020-03-23 11:58:34

I do sometimes cook carrot pies but tend to avoid domestic berries as much as possible. Are wild berry and carrot pies a bad choice? I'm sorry, I swear I read the thread, but math is not my strength.

Also sorry, not sorry, for going back off topic, but -

Being a shepherd with a grass system could be a potentially pretty fun job, right? Say you had to craft a shepherd's hook that made sheep follow you while you led them to different grassy areas? ..With your loyal dog friend? I just want an excuse to breed dogs tbh.

testo · 2020-03-23 13:23:16

cachinnus wrote:

I do sometimes cook carrot pies but tend to avoid domestic berries as much as possible. Are wild berry and carrot pies a bad choice? I'm sorry, I swear I read the thread, but math is not my strength.
Also sorry, not sorry, for going back off topic, but -
Being a shepherd with a grass system could be a potentially pretty fun job, right? Say you had to craft a shepherd's hook that made sheep follow you while you led them to different grassy areas? ..With your loyal dog friend? I just want an excuse to breed dogs tbh.

Wild berry gatherer is one of the most underated jobs, you are gifting your town free water and soil. Grab a cart or horsecart and bowls go around and gather. Fill with carrots at the farm and mass sheep. Town hero.

GivePEASachance · 2020-03-23 13:30:59

Everyone who says zero berry bushes are needed, are the ones who grow the 3x3 plots. I have never seen a place not have any berry bushes. LIES!

testo · 2020-03-23 13:45:15

GivePEASachance wrote:

Everyone who says zero berry bushes are needed, are the ones who grow the 3x3 plots. I have never seen a place not have any berry bushes. LIES!

I believe I have not planted a berry tree on Bs2 for two months. Maybe 6 to 8 if you discount those in the corners of pens. The last time I made a 3x3 was like 10 months ago in some early camp, I soon learned carrots are way way better at the start. You haven´t seen a place without domestic berry bushes because the game teaches you about them as basic survival in the tutorial.

GivePEASachance · 2020-03-23 13:51:27

testo wrote:

GivePEASachance wrote:
Everyone who says zero berry bushes are needed, are the ones who grow the 3x3 plots. I have never seen a place not have any berry bushes. LIES!
I believe I have not planted a berry tree on Bs2 for two months. Maybe 6 to 8 if you discount those in the corners of pens. The last time I made a 3x3 was like 10 months ago in some early camp, I soon learned carrots are way way better at the start. You haven´t seen a place without domestic berry bushes because the game teaches you about them as basic survival in the tutorial.

I actually daf about your berry planting ways. You still grow them.....so my reasoning still stands.

pein · 2020-03-23 13:54:10

I mean, anything wild is free technically but distance will be an issue

since the new map, you got a limited green territory, going to the next one isn't really an option without a horse
lets say you got a normal cart and do 5 runs for soil which is worth a bucket of water
each 100 tile is a minute walk so if you do 5 runs, it will take around 5 min to get that soil, meanwhile, you are using up 20 pips a minute, that's like half a water if you eat berries, so on a 100 tile distance, you cut even. Eating wild food is good, wild berries recharge so best to pick them down or you lose them. So you can cut even easily by foraging around the town, but there is a risk of death by animals or what happens a lot: moms leave carts and items behind for the sake of carrying kids.

As far as I seen people dot even care to go 30 tiles from camp to collect branches or food.

I think the engine can't do tile conversions, would be fun that a grassland converts into mud then desert, I would enjoy the wandering sheep where they would eat the grass and leave empty behind so you would need to move the fences over time. So the only choice would be to add grass as an item to the green tiles, but then it wouldn't mix with other stuff like trees. Also, it would be quite a lot of items covering the ground and sheep wouldn't be able to stand on it at first, but if it eats automatically then it would go out of hand fast. The other option could be that players cut the grass for the sheep, it would run out eventually anyway. Btw if you want to be realistic, potato is good sheep food (the berry carrot makes sense cause compost uses the same thing so the circle is complete). So it's more of a balance issue, especially we got the tech locked to fires and items, you can't do a portable camp. I would enjoy half nomadic cities where you go, dismantle a mountain and strip the land than just go forward.

Dogs chasing sheep would be also fun, they would regulate the herd so none of them goes too far from one another, you could lead them with a whistle or chase them with a pole.

Overall the cities lost value again since the oil is worse and staying in a place is worse. But also moving can be annoying cause you can't advance in technology. I think some other motivation to move around would be fun, like unlocking borders and going to different lands with a goal in mind.

Morti · 2020-03-23 15:17:41

pein wrote:

Also is 7 berries for bush not 6
3x7=21 then you need 4.5 bushes on full speed to sustain a naked person without overeating for 8 minutes where the bushes grow back

True, Wild have 6, Domestic 7.
Spending a lot of time in the wild, yet some reason I thought it was the other way around.

Morti · 2020-03-23 15:18:52

https://onetech.info/30-Wild-Gooseberry-Bush
https://onetech.info/391-Domestic-Gooseberry-Bush

Morti · 2020-03-23 15:41:21

pein wrote:

I think the engine can't do tile conversions, would be fun that a grassland converts into mud then desert, I would enjoy the wandering sheep where they would eat the grass and leave empty behind so you would need to move the fences over time. So the only choice would be to add grass as an item to the green tiles, but then it wouldn't mix with other stuff like trees.

This is more what I had in mind, a tile like this, https://onetech.info/244-Wheat-Stumps called grass, or something similar, sheep move onto it, it disappears. It'd make sense if it grew back after awhile, but it could be plantable, with just grass seed, but having it grow wild with an 18.26% chance, like wheat and carrots. Could be in grassland, prairie, or both. Mouflon and sheep would eat it if they moved onto it. Maybe wild grass, and then it could be domesticated, and we could grow it as feed or decoration around buildings, as lawns.

Then it gets overgrown and the city charges you a fine when you don't cut it down, and you fight it in court, and say you were "natural landscaping".

The_Anabaptist · 2020-03-23 16:01:50

Domestic Berries are a pox on the land and should never be planted.

You are better off building a basic cart. Filling it with bowls and then going out to the wild bushes to collect berries. No watering, no soil, you just need to remember where the wild bushes are. I even like to fill my backpack and one basket with carrots and complete the berry and bowls while traveling.

The_Anabaptist

pein · 2020-03-23 16:33:46

yeah, but sheep can move across the map and if they eat the grass, they would get offsprings which would escalate over time

now if it would be an extra age category to it then is different

I just played some don't starve and I kinda forgot it how it works, never been good at it really, but since I became better at ohol by sheer will, I guess it's interesting to play it again

The poop for farms is there, and Jason just put it in later, to nerf the composting, might be the influence of that game

Anyway, the trees are interesting in that game, you can cut them in 4 phases, it gives you less wood if you do it early, you rather wait to become a full-grown tree, but also gives you nothing but a seed when cut too late. So overall the tree count won't grow, you can plant them back to make it stable but that won't change the number, only the distribution, still it needs to be cared of.

Similar to this, old sheep could die, then it would be a waste, but maybe it could have the advantage of extra fleece from old sheep, maybe some craftable bone items which wouldn't be possible for adult sheep. That would balance out the extra growth, especially if the grass is respawning.

Butt overall, the fence system is good I think, both realistic and good requirement.
You got to lock them up to constrain their movements. Oxygen not included had this room bonuses where you got to make a predefined size, and has to contain certain modules to give you a bonus.

Similar to that, we could have a minimum sheep pen size of 3x3 or 4x4, must not contain any items inside (trees or flints or anything), maybe we could convert the tiles, flattening it, then if all the requirements are good, it would become a sheep pen and it would grow grass inside it. Eventually, it should run out, so relocating it would be necessary and reclaiming those tiles would take time. Each sheep would eat the grass automatically inside the fence, so those pastures would have a value. If the sheep would go across several phases, people should kill them as an adult or let it go old for extra fleece production. this would be more risk and more reward. Once the pen is done for, you should move the herd to another location or feed like now. Tropico had a similar system with humidity, height, certain plants grow better on dry soil so it's not worse just different, and animals had their own preferences (sheep, cow, lama, goats, crocodile), the efficiency can be very high with correct placement, so production is very high then falls off. The next step was factory ranches which are confined and require upgrades, even some power, even food for the ranches (corn for first 4, fish for crocodiles), but they don't depend on the soil quality and don't produce as much pollution and it's better if you want to profit refining the milk, wool, hides and leather. It had milk and hides from cow, milk and meat from goats, wool and milk from sheep, lama wool only but more, meat from pigs, leather from crocodiles, where hides needed tannery to convert to leather, milk to chocolate or
cheese. Same for plants, no input tho, but doesn't depend on the soil quality.

So the town should make several pens and move sheep around over time.

The extra poop we got, maybe if the sheep leaves the tiles behind, you could feed them berry carrot to poop, and it would poop only that way. Using poop on the "tired" tiles would convert them back to normal (faster).
So you could either fix the mess you made or abandon ship and go elsewhere on map. Over time it would convert back to normal.
There could be also a possibility to use those tiles as big farm, and it would be a requirement for a certain type of plant. This way we could havee a bit more advanced farming, crop rotation and such.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2020-03-22 23:38:33

Question time

#2 2020-03-22 23:44:30

Re: Question time

#3 2020-03-22 23:57:22

Re: Question time

#4 2020-03-23 00:03:43

Re: Question time

#5 2020-03-23 00:04:51

Re: Question time

#6 2020-03-23 00:10:15

Re: Question time

#7 2020-03-23 00:30:10

Re: Question time

#8 2020-03-23 00:40:38

Re: Question time

#9 2020-03-23 01:20:01

Re: Question time

#10 2020-03-23 01:48:21

Re: Question time

#11 2020-03-23 02:03:35

Re: Question time

#12 2020-03-23 02:09:53

Re: Question time

#13 2020-03-23 02:36:56

Re: Question time

#14 2020-03-23 10:56:09

Re: Question time

#15 2020-03-23 11:58:34

Re: Question time

#16 2020-03-23 13:23:16

Re: Question time

#17 2020-03-23 13:30:59

Re: Question time

#18 2020-03-23 13:45:15

Re: Question time

#19 2020-03-23 13:51:27

Re: Question time

#20 2020-03-23 13:54:10

Re: Question time

#21 2020-03-23 15:17:41

Re: Question time

#22 2020-03-23 15:18:52

Re: Question time

#23 2020-03-23 15:41:21

Re: Question time

#24 2020-03-23 16:01:50

Re: Question time

#25 2020-03-23 16:33:46

Re: Question time

Board footer