The high tech problem.

fug · 2020-01-08 18:01:32

With the newest update this week we'll be seeing glass bottles hold things other than wine which is nice however, they'll suffer the exact same issues as other high tech items in the game.

Lower tech options are almost always better than their high tech counterpart which seems completely backwards with how the game should play. Horses > Cars, Buckets > Bottles, Clay bowls > Bottles, etc etc. The only motive to make the higher tech options are for players who want to make them which seems silly. You should want to make higher tech options because they're BETTER.

If someone tosses all your clay bowls filled with useful stuff into a bad biome that's annoying but easily undone due to the ease of making clay bowls. If someone on the otherhand tosses all your glass bottles into a bad biome that's an absolute tragedy due to the amount of work it requires just to replace the glass bits. This isn't even taking into account someone can just steal the glass funnel and disable the use of bottles until someone comes along and makes a new one or finds the old one. I don't want to call glass bottles DoA but the amount of effort you put into it is nowhere near worth it vs just making buckets/clay bowls which is just wrong.

So we've talked a bit about our new addition to the classic problem so lets revisit the other high tech bad tech issues we're facing right now.

Cars (and planes kind of) are just worse versions of a vanilla horse cart due to the current tight grip on kerosene, the much higher requirement to replace a lost/stolen car, and the fact horse carts have better storage. The only advantage a car has over the horse is the fact that its slightly faster + won't run away which aren't worth the amount of effort it takes to make and maintain a car in the first place. Extra storage + ease of replacement absolutely dominates these slight advantages which means it is never worth making a car in the first place and that seems dumb.

It would add a distinct difference in feel between early, mid, and late game if the car was a suitable replacement for horses. Early game you don't have either, mid game people ride around on horses collecting resources and searching for folks, then late game people drive around the city doing different tasks and what not. But how? Mass production of parts when making said items instead of how it currently works just think how rubber was changed. Instead of making one piston (reminder that you need a total of SEVENTEEN steel + one iron to make a single engine atm) you make four just like rubber. Do the same with pipes but make it like five or something and we could start seeing actual engines be jammed into cars and not screech about waste.

Kerosene is still an issue but either raise the limit up or just remove the limit in the first place. It's very clear only veteran players do anything with oil due to the annoyance of the whole oil grind and to be frank it's not an interesting grind in the least. Limiting kerosene helped kill off other high tech things such as cars, planes, and diesel mining since why waste kerosene on it when you can ride out and find a new mine?

Basically the TL;DR:
Low tech is almost always better than high tech and to fix this high tech things should be made in multiples during item creation.
Raise the limit on how much oil you get before tapping it out completely or remove the limit.
Glass storage likely just DoA due to ease of griefing.

And one last note: A lot of problems are caused by the race specialization update without really hitting the nail on the head and should really be rolled back like the rift was.

Kinrany · 2020-01-08 18:52:23

I suspect in most cases the material costs are very small compared to the time spent crafting.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-08 19:37:31

fug wrote:

Lower tech options are almost always better than their high tech counterpart which seems completely backwards with how the game should play.

If higher tech options are better, then there's motivation to rush higher technology. With lower tech options as more useful, there's motivation to stay lower tech. Lower tech options also I think more easily understood by newer players. I would guess that under that a theoretical settlement of just new players would have thrived better under some of the old water systems than those after springs got introduced (shallow wells digable up everywhere sounds silly to me... I didn't play then) also. Lower tech systems I think better for new players, given that new players can access lower tech systems as effectively as high tech ones (not so sure they can in OHOL since they don't use zoom and don't understand fault lines and the like), AND new players don't rush to higher technology without understanding, for example, as happens when new Oxygen Not Included players use the microbe musher in early cycles.

There's motivation to understand how higher tech systems work in comparison to lower tech systems when higher tech systems have *some* disadvantages.

Really, there should exist a balance between higher tech systems having advantages and lower tech systems having advantages also.

Cars and planes don't have enough motivation at present, sure. But, that doesn't mean that cars should in every way be better than horsecarts.

fug wrote:

I don't want to call glass bottles DoA but the amount of effort you put into it is nowhere near worth it vs just making buckets/clay bowls which is just wrong.

If you grow the milkweed, and yeah, advanced players probably don't or possibly aren't smart to do so on bs2, under the current milkweed system, it's less water to make the glass *assuming* that you already have the blowpipe, which took water to make.

fug wrote:

And one last note: A lot of problems are caused by the race specialization update without really hitting the nail on the head and should really be rolled back like the rift was.

So what's an alternative way to slow the tech pace down?

sigmen4020 · 2020-01-08 19:47:19

Glass bottles carrying other stuff sounds neat in theory, but the problem with it being easily griefable is problem. The problem with the funnel being taken is a pretty big issue, and I've seen in multiple end-game towns with wine production screeched to a halt, because someone took the funnel somewhere else.

When it comes to glass production in general though, the biggest hassle for me personally is the need for paper. That is something that really slows mass production of glass down imo.

My suggestion would probably be to just do away with the funnel altogether, but of course easing up production of glass would help out a lot too, because currently glassware is probably too expensive of an endeavor to bother with considering how easy it is to grief.

Probably still gonna play around with it at least on low pop, since glas making is pretty much exclusive to black people unless they gather the ingredients for you, which isn't likely to happen.

And when it comes to racial restrictions, I don't necessarily think it needs to be completely done without, but the whole "dropsy" and completely restricted items needs to go (at least on stuff essential to tech progression). I would suggest instead of completely restricting stuff in specialty biomes it could just be harder for the wrong race to survive there plus a slowdown perhaps. That way you would still be able to get stuff from those biomes in a pinch, but they're preferable to be in as the appropriate race.

Another suggestion could be to make it possible for all races to proceed through the tech tree in their own unique way, instead of tech progression grinding to a halt, because you need other races. One increases variety while the other really doesn't.

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2020-01-08 19:55:37)

Spoonwood · 2020-01-08 20:15:43

sigmen4020 wrote:

When it comes to glass production in general though, the biggest hassle for me personally is the need for paper. That is something that really slows mass production of glass down imo.

Yeah, that would make mass glass production slow. Glad you emphasized that.

sigmen4020 wrote:

but the whole "dropsy" and completely restricted items needs to go

The dropsy is the biggest turn off for me from thinking about playing with race restrictions. Completely restricted items also is rather bad. I can't even pick a cactus fruit or a banana if I happen to be white? Only blacks can get horses by their own self? If I'm black my family can't enjoy roses without meeting a Ginger who wants to use a snowbank? And on the basis of the number of people in the world in which I exist? How the heck do numbers of people limit my abilities? It's almost like it's getting asserted that being less social is better than being more social, and one shouldn't appreciate the company of more people.

Someone who streams on Twitch occassionally and sometimes plays low-pop said she was worried about streaming low pop on Twitch, because it might become high pop and then we'd have the race restriction nonsense (and it would probably be rather bad... 15-20 people on a server with tool slots and race restrictions really would expose the flaws with such systems).

Legs · 2020-01-08 23:08:49

Industry, infrastructure, specialization. Take steel for example. Currently we have the smithy. That's infrastructure, but on a basic level. Firing wood to make charcoal is primitive technology. We need a foundry. More complex and difficult to make, but also more productive. Feed it a stack of three iron ore and it produces a full stack of steel. Combined with a diesel mining pick it makes mountains of steel, which can then go into making engines and rails more feasible. Now your range of operations has become greater and you gain access to new natural resources. This is just one example of how investing into infrastructure could support a high tech city. Semi-permanent installations that boost productivity through technology and automation. First you make the smithy, then the newcomen, then the foundry. The newcomen requires rubber, the foundry requires newcomen, which bottlenecks that stage of technology to prevent rushing.

With a little creativity we can apply this principle to most vital resources. Take your primitive car and add farming attachments for tilling, planting, watering and harvesting to increase food production. Add a roller attachment to make a bulldozer for paving roads. Technology supporting roads and cars in particular would increase our ability to locate and travel to/from other towns as well, which enables multiculture and trading.

DarkDrak · 2020-01-09 00:34:41

About the cars, just being able to make two precision pistons from one piston blank would cut down the steel cost by four. Alternatively, a different approach to making steel valves, in a way to make 3 out of one steel, would also save up 4 steel. If you add a possibility to make 2 fuel nozzle bodies out of one pipe and 2 cam shafts out of 1 rod, a whole stack of steel would be saved up.
We'd have cars costing 11 steel, 1 iron, 1 bucket of rubber, 2 logs and one rope.
A horsecart with rubber tires, in comparison, is worth 0,5 buckets of rubber, 1,5 logs, 3 ropes, a straight branch, 1 bowl of berries and 2 carrots. And it's 33% more efficient than a car, even if we set aside the cost of kerosene and the need to keep a tank of it in the car at all times.

Imo we need more storage space on the vehicles to make them even remotely worth the while. Like a possibility to add a tired cart to it to function as a trailer to triple its storage capabilities.

An airplane is a bit different, since its instant-travel meccanics, but it could still use a buff. Perhaps sticking a wooden sledge to it to make it a cargo plane.

And even then we're still left with the kerosene problem. Civilization-wise it's just much wiser to use it for water than for a car. And, under this light, hiding a car far away can't even be considered greifing since it's actually saving the city from an endless water sink: 2 minutes of car usage or one flight cost the equivalent of 7 buckets of water.

When end-game tetch is dooming the town instead of helping it prosper, that's a huge problem imo.

As for the glass bottles, as far as i can see, there's only 3 problems that inhibit its mass production.
- the biome restriction (duh)
- the need to trasport sand in clay bowls (you can trasport glasswort and limestones in baskets, getting 12-24 of them every trip, but it will then take you three trips to get the equivalent needed of sand)
- the need to make lots of paper to filter the glassworth ashes

Setting aside the biome restriction for a sec, Imo if we could transport sand in bukets and make filter paper out of normal paper (like 4/paper), bottles would become much more approachable.

Just throwing some thoughts here.

pein · 2020-01-09 00:39:41

yeh we might need some high tech which is useful

infrastructure can be useful, but we would need tarmac/asphalt and a roller machine which can do it faster, maybe only downside that it could only go straight, upside that it would do so for like 20 tiles at a time

upgraded farming: maybe nerf berries that they die out after 10 recharges but small chance you find a big berry which can made into seed for tier 2 berry bushes which are bigger and more per bush, no seeds for it directly, so wouldn't be too op, farmers would have a chance to upgrade crops and old towns would be better since that is something valuable

I feel like we would need some area effects, buffs and nerfs to make spots better or worse for some actions, buildings
also maybe some special buildings that can only be in special places, and I'm not thinking of biome limits, more like a territory that has a capital and buffs based on it

Spoonwood · 2020-01-09 01:56:13

DarkDrak wrote:

About the cars, just being able to make two precision pistons from one piston blank would cut down the steel cost by four.

Huh? Only two precision pistions are needed for a diesel engine. So, that's 9 piston blanks instead of 10, if one piston blank turned in two precision pistons by my count.

DarkDrak wrote:

Alternatively, a different approach to making steel valves, in a way to make 3 out of one steel, would also save up 4 steel.

That's what I calculated also.

JasonY · 2020-01-09 02:08:41

I might be wrong but bulk storage of liquid that can be stored sounds useful to me, although not essential I'd still use it if I understand things correctly.

Even so, I agree that any High-Tech item should be way better. Cars should succeed the horse, Glass bottles should succeed bowls where it makes sense etc.

I think stuff should get easier as you advance. A High-Tech town should be able to manufacture glass as previous generations could make clay bowls. Otherwise, it will be near impossible or even unviable to reach higher levels of tech. The entire point of the game.

fug · 2020-01-09 02:31:58

JasonY wrote:

I might be wrong but bulk storage of liquid that can be stored sounds useful to me, although not essential I'd still use it if I understand things correctly.
Even so, I agree that any High-Tech item should be way better. Cars should succeed the horse, Glass bottles should succeed bowls where it makes sense etc.

I think stuff should get easier as you advance. A High-Tech town should be able to manufacture glass as previous generations could make clay bowls. Otherwise, it will be near impossible or even unviable to reach higher levels of tech. The entire point of the game.

In this specific case glass can be useful but is so easily griefed via hiding the funnel its sort of laughable. Glass by no means will be useless like other things such as cars but suffer the exact same weakness being incredibly easy to completely shut down the use of glass bottles in the first place this of course isn't taking into effect someone just hiding the glass in unreachable areas.

The hard part should be getting all the bits and bobs in place such as the machines and the required tools to do something then allowing much easier production down the line. For example, to make a blowpipe from scratch its about 99 different steps which should be the challenge of glass making vs gathering 10 limestone, sand, and paper so you can make four bottles, a funnel, then either a glass or second funnel just in case the other is stolen. Late game should translate over from as you pointed out moving from storage in bowls to glasses with about the same relative ease.

High tech either needs to do low tech better to an extent that it completely replaces it or is produced just as easy as low tech options. A good example I seen was the chainsaw nethercrow made for their server which replaces the axe or even their little sawmill which replaces froe. These are high tech options that properly replace their lower tier counterparts unlike the transition from horses to cars which is just a downgrade.

With the suggestion of making multiple batches of glass or engine parts at once vs the 1:1 current ratio we could move away from clay bowls and horses (minus the other issues with cars.)

Kerosene really needs revisited now that we're not trying to play in a box. I don't have an issue with needing to redo the oil grind but it shouldn't be anywhere near as strict as it currently is. Along with kerosene the drop function of bad biomes needs to be fixed as it's causing issues without giving us what he really wants. Maybe collecting things in a bad biome is hungry work for off race characters? I have no idea what the real solution is but dropping stuff and not being able to pick it up is definitely the wrong way of doing things.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-09 02:37:22

Perhaps the funnel should be part of a bottling station which is not easy to move/hide/steal.

I would like to see more crafting stations, since they helpto visually define the work space.

Oven = kitchen

Kiln/forge = smithy

Bottling station = ??? Profit!

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-09 02:39:10)

Legs · 2020-01-09 02:47:43

That's what I mean by infrastructure, semi-permanent work spaces that are difficult to craft but improve productivity. They're centrally located and breaking them down is difficult so they're resistant to grief. The current glass tech would be a first stage tech, which can then be transitioned into a stationary semi-permanent bottling facility.

Eventually a modern city would have a dozen buildings with various facilities and a very high level of productivity, fueled by its infrastructure. Multiple working parts that each make the whole stronger. This specialization in turn introduces more "jobs" which provide depth to play.

fug · 2020-01-09 02:49:16

DestinyCall wrote:

Perhaps the funnel should be part of a bottling station which is not easy to move/hide/steal.
I would like to see more crafting stations, since they helpto visually define the work space.
Oven = kitchen
Kiln/forge = smithy
Bottling station = ??? Profit!

I mean it makes sense to have work stations in the game as the advanced version of something low tech just like you described. I think unfortunately they have to be able to be disassembled due to the issues with door griefing/tile griefing like we seen with waystones and other various items. Don't get me wrong it seems a little hard to grief with something that requires a bottle, funnel, and rubber stopper but you never know.

Longer burning forges, ovens, bottle station, sawmill all these things could be good options to add to the game without being crazy overpowered. Higher tech villages should look, feel, and more importantly be different from their early and mid game counterparts.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-09 02:52:46

Simple solution is to allow normal movement through the tile occupied by the workstation. Or to allow the station to be dismantled using tools, like with the forge/oven and loom.

Ideally, all stationary items should be destructible or moveable, to allow for village design changes and remodeling. It sucks to have something built in a stupid spot forever.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-09 03:03:38)

Legs · 2020-01-09 03:05:17

fug wrote:

I think unfortunately they have to be able to be disassembled due to the issues with door griefing/tile griefing like we seen with waystones and other various items.

DestinyCall wrote:

Or to allow the station to be dismantled using tools, like with the forge/oven and loom.

That's why I say semi-permanent. They should be difficult to construct so that they can't easily be used to block, but also stationary and require an involved process to deconstruct so that people can't just casually walk off with them.

fug wrote:

Higher tech villages should look, feel, and more importantly be different from their early and mid game counterparts.

Exactly. It's ridiculous to me that high tech towns with oil and diesel engines are basically using the same metalworking technology that Eve does. Newcomen is a step up but it's only used for machining, the basic process of refining and smithing steel is the same. We should have technology to automatically refine and multiply the production of steel at least. Likewise, ways to use it beyond the basic eve-level steel tools.

Honestly the tech levels for different things are all over the place. I'm talking about tractors and industrial agriculture. The game doesn't even have plows. Why can't I hitch a plow on a horse and lead it across a row of soil to till it? That's basic technology. Inconsistency comes with the territory I guess.

testo · 2020-01-09 19:47:24

I love the idea of glass heavily implemented in the game. Unfortunately as they stand glass bottles are just a luxury item, hard to make, easy to grief and not really easy to use. A bucket is way better for milk and apart from palm oil the other liquids are never really made in large scale.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2020-01-08 18:01:32

The high tech problem.

#2 2020-01-08 18:52:23

Re: The high tech problem.

#3 2020-01-08 19:37:31

Re: The high tech problem.

#4 2020-01-08 19:47:19

Re: The high tech problem.

#5 2020-01-08 20:15:43

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#6 2020-01-08 23:08:49

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#7 2020-01-09 00:34:41

Re: The high tech problem.

#8 2020-01-09 00:39:41

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#9 2020-01-09 01:56:13

Re: The high tech problem.

#10 2020-01-09 02:08:41

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#11 2020-01-09 02:31:58

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#12 2020-01-09 02:37:22

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#14 2020-01-09 02:49:16

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