Long Lineages or Longstanding Towns?

Spoonwood · 2019-12-11 21:41:21

I didn't play in any of the super long lineages which happened during The Rift period, nor was I member of The Boots family. I did play a few lives in the legendary San-Cal.

For anyone who played in long-lasting towns and in one of the super-long lineages, which do you remember more fondly? Which would you say was better and why?

DestinyCall · 2019-12-11 22:24:49

Personally, I care about towns and I care about my family. But I do not care about my family NAME, unless I'm the Eve or directly involved in the foundation stage - 1st or 2nd gen.

When I find myself in a particular village, I strive to make that village live longer and happier. Ideally, that means that my family lives for a very long time in one spot, so I can recognize the village when I come back days later. But if my lineage dies out and a different family moves into the abandoned town, I will be just as happy to see it again.

I don't really care that much about having one family name survive forever, but I would like to be able to return to the same village reliably, every couple of lives. If that was linked to longest lineage, I might care a little more when a family died out completely.

But even if I felt sad when a lineage came to an end, I don't think it would change how I play or what I do with my life. I already strive to keep my family alive and improve the village. If the village dies out after I am gone, there is little I can do the prevent it, short of never logging out of the game and playing constantly. If it dies out during my lifetime, it is almost always due to forces beyond my control. Either way, I have done what I can to prevent it .... and it was not enough. No point crying over it now, maybe I will have better luck in my next life.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-11 22:39:34)

Melea · 2019-12-11 22:35:58

I enjoy the towns more than the individual families. I enjoy helping my family try and thrive wherever we are, but do so by trying to build up the town and resources. I don't care if I'm currently black, brown, ginger, or about the particular last name I happened to spawn with. I don't even care if there are any others with my last name around - I want to make the town good for whoever lives there, even if completely unrelated to me. And I hope to revisit that town in a future life, to try and improve it further.

Keyin · 2019-12-11 22:53:03

Generally, I enjoy long lineages(relative to other lineages) more than long lasting towns.

It is interesting to try to figure out the family's migration pattern, satisfying to see people I know are descended from me, etc.

Old towns I generally dislike though because of the phase towns go through:

Camp phase-> Clearing phase -> Farm phase -> Farm w/bakery -> Multiple buildings -> multiple buildings + annoying shrines/graveyards -> multiple buildings + annoying shrines/graveyards/roads/trash everywhere

It gets to the point where the town becomes dysfunctional, getting only worse as time moves on. Also, town keeps growing, even though population stays the same.

pein · 2019-12-12 13:18:48

I enjoy old towns if I ever been part of it

when a city is ancient and it's my first life there I just suicide

people ruin so many towns
like the ginger Belltown just now
it was a fricking mess
somebody thought is a good idea to plant bushes along the road
those will all dry out once they pick it down, nobody will ever fix it, or if does it will happen over and over, and no chance that people carry bucket or make compost there

I actually remember a few big cities from way back

I liked West town, it was fun for a week, had a huge berry farm cause the berry got buffed just before it, first time i thought is cool having so much, since you could barely see any planted,like trees now, but after the timer was set to 8 from 60 is cool

I remember some I don't know names for. Was a graveyard city, I made several improvements and trolled morti with my first big uncle pen
I made fences all around and a few ciserns for carrot farm and I was quite good back in the day

I was in San-cal in early days, it was a shithole, huge berry farm, people just extended left and right
We captured the mosquitoes with bell bases and clear the jungle
Then we made the first aesthetical setup of the diamond shape farm, was medium temperature and looked cool, after several revives it had tons of big buildings and still looked nice

I remember Bear famil had 3 cities in 700 triangle, that was fun. I born in the North one, then died out but I was able to bring a girl back there, then bring to other ones back in other lifes.

Knight family had this setup that they went sideways to 1000 and made new towns, they had 4, was fun discovering them with a group of followers.

Boots was not fun, they didn't let people in they just killed all males and all babies who weren't theirs, I don't even consider it as a real run.

Black family lost its name and had 4 camps, lasted like 150 gens this way, people didn't kill it cause they didn't know it, it always just looked like an early camp.

Don't remember the name, was before rift, a family had a huge road trough a jungle which was visible from the OHOL map cause so many babies born on the road. They controlled most of the cities on NW side of the spiral.

In rift there was a few memorable ones. It was a good experience what I don't want to repeat. I experienced apocalypse in huge city then was killed after building up a camp, and I was having 15 babies, my girl like 45.

I liked my NE camp in the 8 day rift, then I made a fortress central north.
The other arc run I made another fortress which became the multi-racial town with the first engine, somewhere central west.
I liked the fact that I spent 2-3 hours then we had a well-designed town to move in.

I remember some other before hetuw made his family indicators, the idea came from me since I mapped them out so many times on circle we even fl trough other towns tat time.

And perhaps Karltown, in my very early days we made it huge, I was there multiple lives, starving on the deserts, getting sheep the first time, making adobe then fence pen, was revived many times and was big.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-12 14:02:16

pein wrote:

I was in San-cal in early days, it was a shithole, huge berry farm, people just extended left and right

When I was there I think the berry farm had like a 3x12 structure or 3x something. I remember living a life there where one of the patches was half-empty, so I replanted more berries. Though, I would guess that you're talking about something like 8x8 or 10x10 patch of berries? Or even bigger without any space?

pein wrote:

We captured the mosquitoes with bell bases and clear the jungle Then we made the first aesthetical setup of the diamond shape farm, was medium temperature and looked cool, after several revives it had tons of big buildings and still looked nice

Yeah, I recall those big buildings too and a huge amount of wood flooring there. All that good temperature there AND lots of buildings. I would guess though that Jason never saw San-Cal though since he didn't (and still doesn't) play all that much.

Punkypal · 2019-12-12 16:00:36

It would be nice if a family name could survive longer than on average twelve hours. It seems like a long time is one day. It seems they often meet their end due to murder greifers. They target a family and just kill any females, starting from the youngest.

The only "fix" to this I can think of is the game auto-cursing players for certain anti social detected behavior.

I was also thinking that. since you can't curse anyone if you're too young to type enough letters, when you die, the game could ask: WOULD YOU LIKE TO CURSE YOUR MURDERER? YES or NO? That isn't too crazy of an idea. I have been killed, reborn, aged up, and then cursed someone fifteen years after they murdered me. If my reincarnated spirit can curse someone from another body that is half way across the known world, I don't see why my spirit can't curse from the dark unknown between lives!

Keyin · 2019-12-12 16:36:12

Punkypal wrote:

It would be nice if a family name could survive longer than on average twelve hours. It seems like a long time is one day. It seems they often meet their end due to murder greifers. They target a family and just kill any females, starting from the youngest.

I don't think this is a problem. Long lines should be special and rare. Remember 12 hours is 720 years. Not many families can trace their roots back that far. Families that want to keep going need to protect themselves. A lone killer is really easy to avoid anyway.

Also, I don't understand why people keep using the phrase "punish antisocial behavior". Aren't people allowed to be introverted? Is there no place for individualism in the game?

DestinyCall · 2019-12-12 16:44:08

Keyin wrote:

Also, I don't understand why people keep using the phrase "punish antisocial behavior". Aren't people allowed to be introverted? Is there no place for individualism in the game?

When I use the term "antisocial behavior" I'm not referring to introverts, I'm referring to sociopaths. I don't care if you are a lonely hermit. I do care if you are child-stealing serial killer.

Keyin · 2019-12-12 17:21:01

DestinyCall wrote:

When I use the term "antisocial behavior" I'm not referring to introverts, I'm referring to sociopaths. I don't care if you are a lonely hermit. I do care if you are child-stealing serial killer.

I sincerely appreciate you pointing this out to me. This re-contextualized a lot for me. I had no idea antisocial was synonymous with sociopath, or that sociopathy is literally Antisocial Personality Disorder... I simply thought that it was 'not social'.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-12 18:43:17

To be fair, I think it is quite common in everyday speech to say "antisocial" when you are talking about someone who isn't very social - an introverted person. But in the context of this game, anti-social behavior tends to be used more literally - someone who acts against society or against other people. At least, that's how I see it.

I usually bring it up when I'm talking about griefers to make it clear what kind of behavior I am labeling as unacceptable. The term griefing gets applied to a lot of different things and sometimes it is unclear what someone means when they just say that "griefing" is bad. They might mean specifically killing other players, but there are sometimes valid reasons for killing someone. And also griefing can take many forms. It is not just being a killer. It is being intentionally hurtful toward other people in the game. It's anti-social behavior.

Melea · 2019-12-12 18:54:29

Yeah, introverts would perhaps be more accurately called asocial instead: prefix 'A-' added to words = not, so asocial = someone who is not really social. Where 'Anti-' = against, antisocial being someone pointedly going against normal social/cooperative behaviors. Which suits someone going on a murder spree, or otherwise exploiting other people / going against the common unwritten social contracts.

jcwilk · 2019-12-12 21:45:27

And different people have different definitions of acceptable behavior... Like IMO i think random killing is fine, roleplay a family killing sociopath. Make the village band against you. Hell is other people. Not that roleplay is a requirement either.

Fouling up buildings and destroying resources is pretty hard to justify though... It's not fun to do, it's not fun to fix, there's no challenge and no (reasonable) defense against it, so it's just shitty. I don't think it's against the rules though, the dev has a very laissez-faire attitude about these kinds of things particularly given his last game The Castle Doctrine (the whole game is about trapping, stealing, and "griefing" in a way).

So yeah don't put too much weight in other people's values, do whatever stimulates you... It's a game after all, doing things we can't or shouldn't do irl is part of the point.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-12 23:26:07

jcwilk wrote:

And different people have different definitions of acceptable behavior... Like IMO i think random killing is fine, roleplay a family killing sociopath. Make the village band against you. Hell is other people. Not that roleplay is a requirement either.
Fouling up buildings and destroying resources is pretty hard to justify though...

I would have probably just shrugged at the first paragraph, if it weren't for that justify sentence. You think it's fine. O. K. But where's the justification? Just feeling that something is alright isn't a justification. You need a reason for that something. I don't see any basis for random killing in terms of expected benefit in terms of parenting and civilization building. I don't see how them banding against you would enable them to build better. Yeah, you don't have to agree with parenting and civilization building as meaningful concepts in order to play the game, but those concepts can provide reasons for doing things in the game.

Seriously, what reason could there be for random killing? "The killer feels like it" isn't a reason. It's just an indication of the killer's emotional state. And the killing doesn't have a pattern either.

jcwilk wrote:

Fouling up buildings and destroying resources is pretty hard to justify though... It's not fun to do, it's not fun to fix, *there's no challenge* [emphasis added] and no (reasonable) defense against it, so it's just shitty.

I said yesterday to some people that destroying adobe walls was the hardest thing I've ever done in OHOL (I built the building where I destroyed those walls... did have a little help, but I was the person with the Eve spawn in that town). Not the most complex, but the most difficult. Kind of strange in a way. The first time I tried it I succeeded. But, I got a little off in terms of technique, and I failed a bunch of times shortly after that.

Also, let's say that someone were to try to block off the well in the center of town, with say full adobe walls, with the additional goal of not getting caught. Do you think there would be no challenge in doing that?

DestinyCall · 2019-12-13 00:01:36

Spoonwood wrote:

Seriously, what reason could there be for random killing? "The killer feels like it" isn't a reason. It's just an indication of the killer's emotional state. And the killing doesn't have a pattern either.

Based on his past post, I'm pretty sure the reason he considers it justified can be summed up as "killing is fun, so it must be okay."

Pretty much the same arguement used by many griefers to justify their antics. There are other reasons, of course. Some of them call it role-play. Others focus on OHOL being a game, so anti-social behavior "doesn't count" or shouldn't matter as much. And, of course, there are the ones that point to Jason's own pro-griefer posts and lack of restrictions as proof that they belong in the game.

They aren't the bad guys. They are just misunderstood. Right?

jcwilk · 2019-12-13 00:35:31

Spoonwood wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
And different people have different definitions of acceptable behavior... Like IMO i think random killing is fine, roleplay a family killing sociopath. Make the village band against you. Hell is other people. Not that roleplay is a requirement either.
Fouling up buildings and destroying resources is pretty hard to justify though...
I would have probably just shrugged at the first paragraph, if it weren't for that justify sentence. You think it's fine. O. K. But where's the justification? Just feeling that something is alright isn't a justification. You need a reason for that something. I don't see any basis for random killing in terms of expected benefit in terms of parenting and civilization building. I don't see how them banding against you would enable them to build better. Yeah, you don't have to agree with parenting and civilization building as meaningful concepts in order to play the game, but those concepts can provide reasons for doing things in the game.
Seriously, what reason could there be for random killing? "The killer feels like it" isn't a reason. It's just an indication of the killer's emotional state. And the killing doesn't have a pattern either.
jcwilk wrote:
Fouling up buildings and destroying resources is pretty hard to justify though... It's not fun to do, it's not fun to fix, *there's no challenge* [emphasis added] and no (reasonable) defense against it, so it's just shitty.
I said yesterday to some people that destroying adobe walls was the hardest thing I've ever done in OHOL (I built the building where I destroyed those walls... did have a little help, but I was the person with the Eve spawn in that town). Not the most complex, but the most difficult. Kind of strange in a way. The first time I tried it I succeeded. But, I got a little off in terms of technique, and I failed a bunch of times shortly after that.
Also, let's say that someone were to try to block off the well in the center of town, with say full adobe walls, with the additional goal of not getting caught. Do you think there would be no challenge in doing that?

Things in life (real life, not ohol life) are, by default, fine. It's a very, very steep climb to claim that doing anything in a video game is not fine in terms of ethical human real life behavior. All things are shades of gray though, so it's more "how fine" is it, rather than is it fine or not. Which is to say, is the intention and effects around a particular form of gameplay inside or outside your threshold of ethical human real life behavior you're willing to participate in.

Is it inside your threshold, is it inside the average human's threshold, is it inside the average ohol player's threshold, is it inside the developer's threshold... The answers to these will often not align for a particular form of gameplay so you have to decide for yourself about what you think the answer to each one is and whether you're okay with that. Do not let some rando internet stranger dictate your ethical reality, always define your own, own it, and face the consequences... Both the consequences to yourself and your knowledge of how it will affect others.

Anyways, yeah sure blocking off a well involves a certain amount of challenge I guess, but it's more of a gamble on whether anyone's paying attention to the well or not... Like there's no real victory in succeeding unless someone is like actively hunting you down as you're doing it, and then yeah sure it's more interesting I guess but I think most people doing that kind of thing are going the "while no one's looking" route. There's nothing exciting about fixing a well surrounded by walls though, so it just seems kind of blah... Uncreative, unexciting, low skill, low personalized touch... Just blah. Direct confrontations are at least a gauntlet being thrown down, albeit without much time to react.

I'm more a fan of tricking people into doing things they clearly shouldn't do myself when it comes to these things cause I enjoy the psychology of manipulating people's reality and then snapping it back on them, were it real life such a practice would be condemnable indeed, but they die, respawn, and continue just as they would have in 20 minutes anyways as it's not real life. And next time they don't get tricked so easily. And no, I'm not feeding new players misinformation or anything like that

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-13 02:29:21)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-13 02:18:00

jcwilk wrote:

It's a very, very steep climb to claim that doing anything in a video game is not fine in terms of ethical human real life behavior.

No. Pain that is not necessary is not good. If someone causes someone else psychological harm for the purpose of enjoying knowing that they experience pscyohological harm, that is not ethical (unless they agreed to the pain... psychological sado-masochism is fine, sadism on one end without someone wanting to experience psychological pain on the other is not). Of course, causing a person psychological harm in a game is not bad to the same degree as causing them physical harm in real life. At least not usually. But, still causing psychological harm in another because one enjoys knowing that another person has harmed another is not good. I'm not arguing that laws should exist against such, because determining when such happened is too difficult, and real world legal systems have much larger violations, and even good laws may sometimes have bad consequences. But, no, I don't agree, some things in multiplayer games are unethical.

In single player games it's an impossible climb to say that anything is unethical. But, as soon you play with other people, there's a responsibility to treat them with at least a minimum level of dignity.

jcwilk wrote:

I'm more a fan of tricking people into doing things they clearly shouldn't do myself when it comes to these things cause I enjoy the psychology of manipulating people's reality and then snapping it back on them, were it real life such a practice would be condemnable indeed, but they die, respawn, and continue just as they would have in 20 minutes anyways as it's not real life. And next time they don't get tricked so easily.

If they don't get tricked so easily next time, then they have learned from the experience. Thus, such manipulations, may be necessary for purposes of learning. So, if done for the purposes of teaching others, the pain induced may be necessary.

I'm not sure which aspect of such psychology you enjoy.

If you're playing bs2 OHOL, I don't think you can honestly act like you know that they play as another character and continue just as they would have in 20 minutes anyways. From what I recall, player retention rates aren't that great, and plenty of people I think only play a few games and that's it.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-13 02:25:04)

MCzerotacos · 2019-12-13 14:52:35

DestinyCall wrote:

Personally, I care about towns and I care about my family. But I do not care about my family NAME, unless I'm the Eve or directly involved in the foundation stage - 1st or 2nd gen.

Right, well then explain how wars start then? It's your family NAME vs another. You wouldn't care if you had a cousin killed in the war then? Family names is what makes people FAMILY.

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Long Lineages or Longstanding Towns?

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