Coming soon: way stones

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-21 18:18:42

Assuming that other towns are planting way stones, a serious explorer needs:

1. Good set of clothing
2. Backpack
3. Pie
4. Two blank maps
5. Charcoal pencil

The maps can be used if the explorer finds a way stone that is more than 240 tiles away from its destination.

I'll fix the client to give a distance estimate whenever you read a map or way stone. It will be part of what you read out loud "MAP TO DUCKY TOWN. STRANGERS WELCOME! - 243 METERS AWAY"

miskas · 2019-11-21 18:23:58

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'll fix the client to give a distance estimate whenever you read a map or way stone. It will be part of what you read out loud "MAP TO DUCKY TOWN. STRANGERS WELCOME! - 243 METERS AWAY"

yay Vanilla users now will be able to know the destination distance!

Spoonwood · 2019-11-21 18:54:33

jasonrohrer wrote:

This doesn't feel all that different from a quest in Zelda ...

It was Jony's experience, not yours. I'm sure he's more competent to speak on how that feels than you.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The difference here is that no one authored the quest. It emerged naturally from the situation. Another big difference is that every quest in Zelda can be easily solved if you just keep playing. Here, there's no guarantee that a solution is even possible, currently.

If someone has an expectation that you can come up with a solution to something over time, there's likely a different feeling than if they don't feel that they can come up with a solution over time.

jasonrohrer wrote:

It works this way because "death" of an individual player always happens on a fixed time-line. A life is a life. Surviving to 60, after you get the hang of it, is almost always possible. However, surviving to 60 in isolation is pointless. The point comes from the survival of the group.

At first I thought you were describing the mini-game of finding some other family and trading with them. Now it sounds like you're describing the state of a game as a whole as it stands after this update.

People other than me still Eve-chain. Earlier today I hopped on with someone who told me that she made the place last night, and I still see people playing on servers 2-15 when I've checked it.

Additionally, I remember reading about and observing some people have lived to 60 when they know their lineage is dead. Playing on in case the town gets found. Or to learn something new. There's no reason to expect that this has changed. I don't think that they would describe living on as pointless. Some people surely feel that way, and there's nothing wrong with that. But, they get to decide what they consider pointless or meaningless... especially in such situations.

Furthermore, with the gene score existing, surviving to 60 in isolation after your entire family dies isn't pointless for any player caring about gene score, say for the reason of how many tool slots they have in a future life.

jasonrohrer wrote:

And your own individual failure doesn't mean your village failed in the end. There will be other smart, motivated players who will continue trying to solve the problem you tried to solve.

What? All lineages die out. Village structures get erased. His individual failure may have meant that happened far more quickly than might have been had he succeeded.

jasonrohrer wrote:

And I'm sure you learned something from this experience, so next time, you will be even better at it. And when you finally save your town by making a rubber gasket someday, it will feel amazing.

Jason you still seem to be theorizing a priori on this. Jony isn't. He might be wrong. But the system exists. Again, as Jony I think tried to suggest to you, have you tried to do the exploration and trading part yourself using the constraints you expect of players?

jasonrohrer wrote:

To look at it another way, saving the town with a Newcomen pump is an expert activity. It should be very challenging for experts. Previously, any expert would just "go through the motions" and make the pump. After making one pump, they could make 100s of pumps in future lives, with no issue. That is boring. Going through the motions isn't even really playing a game. That's the reason expert players get bored and quit, because the challenge is gone.
The challenge is back.

Jason, for there to exist an expert activity there has to exist an expert on that activity. Someone actually succeeding at it. I recall reports before the latest sale. But since the new player influx has any expert existed?

Spoonwood · 2019-11-21 19:00:06

jasonrohrer wrote:

In my last life, I found an amazing abandoned town about 200 tiles south of our town. It was full of valuable stuff. I could only carry so much, and I died before I made it back there for more stuff.
But if I had made a map, I could have planted a way stone in our town, pointing to this resource trove, and future generations could have used it.

Aren't way stones intended to solve the issue of finding other families so that advanced technology could get going? Perhaps examples like that are a good enough benefit to justify waystones in the game. But, I can't see how any of this bears relevance to the original purpose of waystones as I understood them.

Spoonwood · 2019-11-21 19:02:58

jasonrohrer wrote:

This is no harder than building roads, and there are roads everywhere.

What?! Where did that come from? There aren't stone roads everywhere by any means.

Guppy · 2019-11-21 19:27:48

Why not just chisel and arrow into a stone. Why so complicated?

Spoonwood · 2019-11-21 20:04:38

jasonrohrer wrote:

I just tested this.
My kit:
--Hand cart
--Shovel
--Wolf Hat
--Mouflon Hide
--Backpack
--Pie
--Map back to my town
--Chisel
--Mallet

Shovel, knife (map), needle and thread (yes... you'll have to expect that you'll need to make clothes for yourself), chisel, adze, hot coals, pencil (7). You said that you started at 14 also. It's even worse then. Fire bow drill at least if not stone hatchet or axe also. I've seen the fire out in towns recently watching people play on bs2. Like just ashes. So 8 or 9 tool slots. I don't see anything on onetech about the froe being a skill (I think that's not correct, but I'll ignore), so I'll leave that off. Flint-tipped fire bow drill a skill tool? I'm mentioned the last two, because it's not at all unreasonable to expect that you'll need to make your own cart also... even if you have rope in town.

Jason, did you even test this in the Eve chaining context with the tool skill constraint... or if you did how many tool slots did you have? On bs2 there's also the issue of having to put out fires in town, so to speak, which might also be needed from an advanced player.

Theorizing about how things will work in the game is in no way reliable from some isolated situations. You've had updates where this has become abundantly clear. I don't think I need to go into details on that point.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-11-24 03:31:25)

JonySky · 2019-11-21 20:55:11

jasonrohrer wrote:

Jony, I hear you that it was frustrating, but that "story" sounds like an excellent one to me. It's supposed to be very very hard. You had to think on your feet, and you ended up failing, in the end. Success doesn't taste sweet if there aren't failures along the way. And most importantly, you had to interact with a bunch of people in order to solve this puzzle. Some of them didn't cooperate.
This doesn't feel all that different from a quest in Zelda, where you have to go to see this guy to get a chicken, but he won't give you a chicken unless you first bring him some milk, but the dairy farmer is sick and needs medicine. The difference here is that no one authored the quest. It emerged naturally from the situation. Another big difference is that every quest in Zelda can be easily solved if you just keep playing. Here, there's no guarantee that a solution is even possible, currently. These aren't hand-designed NPCs that will always cooperate with you. They are real people. You might bring the dairy farmer medicine, and find that they have changed their mind, or that they have died.

Essentially, here's what this game is: A collective roguelike.
By "collective," I mean that the "player" playing the game isn't an individual person, but a whole group of people working together and spread over many hours and generations.
The "player" in this game is a village or family line. The death or failure condition is when the village or family line dies out. The village is the organism.

It works this way because "death" of an individual player always happens on a fixed time-line. A life is a life. Surviving to 60, after you get the hang of it, is almost always possible. However, surviving to 60 in isolation is pointless. The point comes from the survival of the group.

If the group survives 12 hours or 24 hours or 48 hours, that's a really big deal, and a big success. That is the equivalent to making it to the last level in Spelunky or some other roguelike.

And your own individual failure doesn't mean your village failed in the end. There will be other smart, motivated players who will continue trying to solve the problem you tried to solve.
And I'm sure you learned something from this experience, so next time, you will be even better at it. And when you finally save your town by making a rubber gasket someday, it will feel amazing.

To look at it another way, saving the town with a Newcomen pump is an expert activity. It should be very challenging for experts. Previously, any expert would just "go through the motions" and make the pump. After making one pump, they could make 100s of pumps in future lives, with no issue. That is boring. Going through the motions isn't even really playing a game. That's the reason expert players get bored and quit, because the challenge is gone.
The challenge is back.

Jason, I couldn't answer you before

As you know I am a long time player and I know how your game works
I know that once a single player could do it all in one life
I spent a few days on a secondary server creating my own city completely alone
and I also know that this has changed and that now my job is only a small part of many jobs in a family with many more individuals.

you tell me that having changed all this I had to interact with other players and that is good
It is good if you get what you are looking for ...
But it was 10 minutes before finding someone willing to do it ... and at the end of the process the griefer soiled the note with a "this note is crap" and left without more ...
10 minutes lost, 10 minutes in a 60-minute game ...
It is good to collaborate with other players to get something, of course! ... but it is frustrating to spend 10 minutes to get nothing

Is the frustration good in a game? ... I guess in small doses it can be ... but in OHOL the dose of frustration is huge and continuous

First frustration is that you will almost never see the fruit of your work
Second frustration is that when you want to perform a complicated task you will not have the skills to finish it
Third frustration is that your children decide to commit suicide or starve to death
Fourth frustration is that you don't have all the materials to achieve your goal
Fifth frustration is when you are using an object and someone takes it without returning it
Sixth frustration is looking for an object in the city disorder

I can continue but I don't think it's necessary ...
there are too many frustrations in a 60 minute game

You tell me that I'm sure I learned something with this experience ... and you tell me that next time I will be better at it ... and that one day I will succeed and save my family

Jason, I honestly didn't learn anything, I only saw the same disorder and the same type of player as in other lives
people who are working is their tasks without caring about the tasks of others
people looking for the destruction of the town (griefers)
people who do not look at the real needs of the people
also many new players who are still learning to play

I was lucky that this boy helped me to make paper and nothing else
there is nothing else I could do to make my mission of getting the newcomen bomb a success is pure luck ... just that, chance
If my city has run out of water, only the chance of having the right people can save the city

this eliminates the figure of the hero, or the savior of the city and creates another frustration

Anyway, why have I explained this story? ...
to visualize all the problems of current exploration and commerce in OHOL, and why:

1. So that finding a resource and trading with it does not become an eternal task (encourage trade)
2. so that players do not end up frustrated by all the things they cannot do and disappear from the game

you propose a new map system ...
I comment that this is complicated, and should not complicate it, you should make it simple and agile for it to work

the system that you propose to me I can replace it by mounting 3 pieces of road towards the city every certain boxes
This is a task that I can do since I was 3 years old (the one that proposes no) and I can create it with resources that I find in the middle of the map without any special tool (the one that proposes no)
because the solution of the 3 boxes is not done, because it is frustrating and boring
because the system you propose will not be used ... because it is frustrating and tedious

Finally you are the one who rules here, I'm just a player who gives ideas, just like everyone else
I'm not here to argue, just to enjoy your game

But if you don't want to make more updates than anyone else ends up using, you should value more the opinions of your customers ... (the players)
and if you doubt the opinion of your players, Try doing the same as me, maybe you have better luck!

P.S. My city died 5 generations after me
http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5524843

Last edited by JonySky (2019-11-21 21:07:15)

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-21 21:45:24

Tool slots are supposed to be completely disabled on low-pop servers.

I just checked, and that's not working correctly. I'll fix it.

Miskas, for long-distances (>1000 tiles), the vanilla client already shows a distance estimate under the HOME arrow.

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-21 22:04:24

Yesterday, there were 149 new road tiles built on the map.

Today, so far, there were 394 new road tiles built on the map.

I can imagine we will have a few way stones around.

"Just chisel and arrow in a stone"? In which direction? The map contains the destination, which is why a map is used.

I could allow you to do it on the trunk of a tree or something too. I suppose there could be a less-permanent way of leaving a marker around.

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-21 22:27:50

Jony, I know you are an expert player.

However, when you tried to do something hard, there is no guarantee that it will succeed. There are many obstacles in your way, many of them in the form of other players. They need leadership, negotiation, and so on.

Have you ever played a quest game like Zelda and had to interact with a grumpy mill-keeper, and you just can't figure out what he wants that will make him happy? You give him milk, and he doesn't want milk. You try grain, and he doesn't want grain either. Other players in this game are just like that, except they are actually intelligent.

Their intelligence makes them much harder to deal with. With the grumpy mill-keeper, if you say the right thing to him, he'll give you what you want, every time, all the time. Everyone who plays Zelda has exactly the same experience. You can read a strategy guide to spoil the whole game.

But in this game, you're surrounded by intelligent entities, and everyone has a different experience. Your story (the frustrating one) is unique to you. No one else will ever experience that story ever again, not even you. And no strategy guide will help.

You say:

It is good if you get what you are looking for ...

For it to be an actual challenge, you have to NOT get what you are looking for some of the time, right? If you get what you are looking for every time, there is no challenge.

I agree that it is a delicate balance. If you have 99 failures for every 1 success, the game is too hard, and it is frustrating. But on the other hand, not enough failures makes the game boring and not dramatic.

Here's an example from my own experience:

In my last life, I was experimenting with building a private piece of land to have food for just my offspring, to see how that helped my gene score. I got the fence built, and brought some stuff in there, but then someone in the village accused me of stealing and demanded that I return the stuff. I returned it, saying that I was just borrowing it (I was). Then my child was born, and when she got old enough, I told her we were going to make a hoe from scratch, no stealing. She agreed. I wandered south to find milkweed to make a hoe. I found a huge abandoned town with carts and steel hoes and lots of good stuff. I had two kids while I was there. I loaded a cart and came back, and they helped me carry stuff.
When we returned home, the corner of our fence had been cut, and our property was empty of resources. I put the cart in there, and started trying to repair the fence. Someone started sniffing around, saw the cart, and stole it. They took it back to the village center and started unpacking it. I protested, saying that I found it myself outside the village. "No private property, everything shared by all," she said. I took the cart back to my fence. Then she locked on to me with murder mouth, and at least one other person joined her posse. I ran out of town, and they followed. I tried to go into a bad biome, but I screwed up, and she stabbed me.
I completely failed at what I was attempting to do in this life.
That said, it was one of the most interesting and engaging stories I have ever experienced in a video game. My adversaries in the game were intelligent, and they plotted against me while I was away and then behind my back when I returned. My children listened and helped a little bit, but not as much as I wanted them to.
BUT, I made mistakes along the way, and learned a lot for next time. My fence was too close to the town center, I should have recruited someone to help guard it before I left to look for supplies, I should have explained myself better to this nosy woman from the town, and so on.

Gogo · 2019-11-21 22:36:34

Jason, beside testing things out, do you play OHOL for fun? How much things do you accomplish in game (I mean after race specialization update)? Is gameplay more satisfying or frustrating to you?

Last edited by Gogo (2019-11-21 22:36:55)

Spoonwood · 2019-11-21 22:38:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

Tool slots are supposed to be completely disabled on low-pop servers.
I just checked, and that's not working correctly. I'll fix it.

Thanks in advance!

After writing my reflection elsewhere, I realized though that there could be a similarity between what I experienced in one life, and what happens all the time on bs2/s1. Someone is the last person in town. If that person is the last person in town, I don't see how the tool system can be beneficial. Maybe that's a hard issue to improve within the tool system. I don't know how many people that would affect negatively. "Kill me now" was something I think I recall hearing more than once when all the fertile females died. Others still seemed interested in doing things.

Spoonwood · 2019-11-21 23:03:58

jasonrohrer wrote:

Here's an example from my own experience:
In my last life, I was experimenting with building a private piece of land to have food for just my offspring, to see how that helped my gene score. I got the fence built, and brought some stuff in there, but then someone in the village accused me of stealing and demanded that I return the stuff. I returned it, saying that I was just borrowing it (I was). Then my child was born, and when she got old enough, I told her we were going to make a hoe from scratch, no stealing. She agreed. I wandered south to find milkweed to make a hoe. I found a huge abandoned town with carts and steel hoes and lots of good stuff. I had two kids while I was there. I loaded a cart and came back, and they helped me carry stuff.
When we returned home, the corner of our fence had been cut, and our property was empty of resources. I put the cart in there, and started trying to repair the fence. Someone started sniffing around, saw the cart, and stole it. They took it back to the village center and started unpacking it. I protested, saying that I found it myself outside the village. "No private property, everything shared by all," she said. I took the cart back to my fence. Then she locked on to me with murder mouth, and at least one other person joined her posse. I ran out of town, and they followed. I tried to go into a bad biome, but I screwed up, and she stabbed me.
I completely failed at what I was attempting to do in this life.
That said, it was one of the most interesting and engaging stories I have ever experienced in a video game. My adversaries in the game were intelligent, and they plotted against me while I was away and then behind my back when I returned. My children listened and helped a little bit, but not as much as I wanted them to.
BUT, I made mistakes along the way, and learned a lot for next time. My fence was too close to the town center, I should have recruited someone to help guard it before I left to look for supplies, I should have explained myself better to this nosy woman from the town, and so on.

And apparently, from my reading, you didn't come to the conclusion that building a private piece of land could be likely to harm your gene score. I have a feeling that expert players of this game, save you Jason, would agree that having private property isn't likely to help gene score.

Anyways, was interesting to read.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-11-21 23:05:08)

Coconut Fruit · 2019-11-21 23:19:26

Okay, but how to teach whole bunch of noobs how to cooperate? We get around a thousand new players every month, probably ten times more during steam discount and we have only a few people who understand the system...

Spoonwood · 2019-11-22 01:41:45

jasonrohrer wrote:

Tool slots are supposed to be completely disabled on low-pop servers.
I just checked, and that's not working correctly. I'll fix it.

Some fixes get put into effect in the game before a version change gets pushed, correct? I'm playing after you wrote your note on dev-changes, saw the code, and I still have the tool skill limitation.

Spoonwood · 2019-11-22 04:13:54

This isn't the right thread, but since I got your attention here Jason, I'll put it here.

So hungry work exists on low pops. I suspect that isn't a bug. Yes, low pop towns have gotten griefed before by people/a person slaughtering sheep. With a continuous settlement the griefer has to either grab multiple types of food and get put into their backpack to kill all the sheep if there exist a few of them, or has to walk back and forth between sheep/trees and food sources. That could make it so that the griefer ends up more likely to get caught... though I don't know if it works out that way... it does seem possible. For low pops someone else might be around but it seems more likely that no is around. Even if the person who has the Eve spawn/one of the Eve spawns in that town is alive, he or she might be off getting resources out of town. So, it's much more plausible to believe for low pops that the griefer ends up killing all of the sheep and eating more of the food due to hungry work. In other words, for low pops, I think it reasonable to suspect that hungry work just gives more power to the griefer without resulting more power to the town builder(s).

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-11-22 04:14:24)

Kinrany · 2019-11-22 13:54:22

Having rules that are different between low pop and the big server may be dangerous in the long run. There must be a way to recover from outages, so that a day of zero player activity does not kill off the game completely. If something doesn't work well for low pop servers without changes, I think that's a design smell.

Spoonwood · 2019-11-22 16:46:19

sigmen4020 wrote:

With the current Family Specialization update any family that's isolated will die out when they reach a dry well anyway. Also interfamily cursing is a thing.

You're right! That's relevant and my worry above thus might not have much at all to support it.

sigmen4020 wrote:

Curse that Jones family member just the same as you would anyone else. You need at least on ginger, brown and black family to reach the end game. Since this is a requirement for progress making it harder to find other families is counter-intuitive.

But, I think it's not the same in the following respect with respect to strategy assuming no mods... In principle, if you get enough people to curse someone effectively in your family, and they are eliminated, you can have some decent guess on how that might affect family survival.... given you can walk around town enough or have a larger view than the default. One might predict, for example, that it's riskier to do so with a small number of fertile females left or potentially fertile females left than with a larger number of fertile females left. One might thus try to make sure she has a child before dispatching with her in the instance where not many fertile females are in your family. But, I don't see how one could make a decent guess about the number of fertile females with a griefer from an outside family. She could be one of two fertile females left. End any female griefer with few fertile females left too early, she doesn't get a child, and her lineage could be dead. With a griefer in your family, you could reasonably think "I need to try to wait until she has a child, and keep her child alive." There's no similar information on an outside member's family, so smart players playing in such a context would just dispatch with them asap, I think. But, the family might have survived if the player had waited to dispatch with them. And there's no way of guessing at if the smart player should have waited or not to kill the interfamily griefer, unlike the intrafamily griefer scenario where at least some information could get discerned to help know what was the better call to make.

StrongForce · 2019-11-22 20:05:55

Super like!!
-Very nice addition
-Super cool you implement good ideas from the community
- can be used as no maintanance property fence
(which is fair since it uses some effort to set up.
And is harder than property fence with paper)

Just have to say you are killing it right now with good updates! Love it

To all who don't like my hype it's just my opinion and you are free to have your own.

Last edited by StrongForce (2019-11-22 20:48:08)

Spoonwood · 2019-11-22 22:44:46

Kinrany wrote:

Having rules that are different between low pop and the big server may be dangerous in the long run.

So there existed one time where I suspected that the change from bs2 to s1 was in progress by checking the reflector. I had twinned a previous life with a Twitch streamer and we ended up as Eves. I think at the end of that game I suspected that we were playing on s1 even though we hadn't selected it. I hoped in during the update period, and I had my Eve chain and children flowing in (I lived to 60, and played again there later... seems things didn't go so well after I died). I haven't sifted through the code by any means, but I don't think there's anything in the code that makes s1 different from s13. I think everything in the code suggests that low pop server should even be applicable to bs2 during the first few moments of new players getting put on bs2 after it had shut down for the update (the system recently changed to a dual server system in that people not checking server can easily end up s1 or bs2).

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-11-22 22:47:49)

Spoonwood · 2019-11-23 00:24:07

I think the conclusion of my previous comment not correct. I forgot that s2 through s15 got protected from server wipes. I don't think that got coded on the basis of population numbers.

MrShuriken · 2019-11-23 07:06:14

IDEA
Instead of way stones, have City Finder stones, That point roughly (N S E W) to the nearest City stone (which would basically be a waystone) So instead of travelling for 10 hours, with no idea of where we are actually going, we can at least know a rough direction of our destination, it doesn't make things easy, but it makes it more plausible to find without a horse

betame · 2019-11-23 18:17:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

Essentially, here's what this game is: A collective roguelike.
By "collective," I mean that the "player" playing the game isn't an individual person, but a whole group of people working together and spread over many hours and generations.
The "player" in this game is a village or family line. The death or failure condition is when the village or family line dies out. The village is the organism.

And yet, your romanticized gameplay appears contrary:

jasonrohrer wrote:

In my last life, I was experimenting with building a private piece of land to have food for just my offspring, to see how that helped my gene score.
…
I completely failed at what I was attempting to do in this life.
…
BUT, I made mistakes along the way, and learned a lot for next time. My fence was too close to the town center, I should have recruited someone to help guard it before I left to look for supplies, I should have explained myself better to this nosy woman from the town, and so on.

 Consider me the nosy woman from the town.
How is private property supposed to help your gene score?
How is private property supposed to align with the success of the “collective?”

What is your game, really?

Stormyzabeast · 2019-11-24 00:38:15

betame wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Essentially, here's what this game is: A collective roguelike.
By "collective," I mean that the "player" playing the game isn't an individual person, but a whole group of people working together and spread over many hours and generations.
The "player" in this game is a village or family line. The death or failure condition is when the village or family line dies out. The village is the organism.
And yet, your romanticized gameplay appears contrary:
jasonrohrer wrote:
In my last life, I was experimenting with building a private piece of land to have food for just my offspring, to see how that helped my gene score.
…
I completely failed at what I was attempting to do in this life.
…
BUT, I made mistakes along the way, and learned a lot for next time. My fence was too close to the town center, I should have recruited someone to help guard it before I left to look for supplies, I should have explained myself better to this nosy woman from the town, and so on.
 Consider me the nosy woman from the town.
How is private property supposed to help your gene score?
How is private property supposed to align with the success of the “collective?”
What is your game, really?

+300 slayedddd

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2019-11-21 18:18:42

Re: Coming soon: way stones

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#41 2019-11-22 01:41:45

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#42 2019-11-22 04:13:54

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#43 2019-11-22 13:54:22

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#45 2019-11-22 20:05:55

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#46 2019-11-22 22:44:46

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#47 2019-11-23 00:24:07

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#48 2019-11-23 07:06:14

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#49 2019-11-23 18:17:53

Re: Coming soon: way stones

#50 2019-11-24 00:38:15

Re: Coming soon: way stones

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