OneTech is not the answer

juliakanakis · 2019-11-11 02:12:24

OneTech.info is great- but it's not part of the game, and if it was I think it would be out of place.

The blue arrows are an interesting attempt to solve the problem, and the crafting hint system in general is a step in the right direction, but in general the game is still unplayable without "looking things up" outside the game.

- the tutorial doesn't cover everything
- even the tutorial is not completable without looking things up outside the game
- parents only have enough time to teach composting/farming, not smithing/engineering
- new players learn what they can by seeing things *get done*, and crucially, seeing things *that are done*
- - in other words, if you play long enough you know what a sheep pen or berry farm should look like, and it's moderately intuitive what you have to learn to do to make one
- many things in a village are taken care of unseen. clay nozzles for example, are not something a new player will even notice being made, cooked, and crafted into a bellows. new players stumble on bowls of palm oil with no idea what it's for. engine parts are far too complex for a new player to learn by watching, especially if it takes multiple generations to build the engine.
- the hint system doesnt help you if you dont know the exact item name, and some items can't be clicked to find out what they are named
- the tool system limits players ability to learn the game during a normal in-game life

I'm sure you all have other examples of what makes learning recipes difficult, and how creative you have to be to figure out what to do without resorting to onetech.info

But there are several things that *nobody* has to look up- these are the recipes where something is working right.

1. branch + wheat sheaf # watchable, common, clicking wheat sheaf yields the right recipe hint
2. compost + shovel with dung # watchable, common, clicking wet pile yields the right recipe hint AND "shovel with dung" is well named
3. anything + oven # watchable, common, tryable and intuitive, picking up the item usually hints the right recipe
4. most farming # watchable
...

This game often creates the very strange situation where your mother knows nothing and you have to use baby-speak to teach her what the town needs. This is artistically incongruous with the game premise.

I'd love to hear what you all think about long term vision for the game's learning curve.

In the meantime I have a few suggestions:
- make newcomen piston seals (and pulley drive mechanisms' belts) decay, so that tire production is a critical component of every mid-sized town. Then new players will have a higher chance to see that job in action, and learn newcomen construction through the disassembly and reassembly of existing newcomen structures in need of maintenance.
- make tanks, boilers, etc recyclable to reduce the penalty of experimentation with iron resources
- make distillers and engines and pulley drives disassemblable, so players can teach others through reassembly
- add a charcoal storage unit that subtly suggests the amount of charcoal you ought to have on hand (like a cistern suggests how much water to keep around)

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-11 18:10:17

For this kind of game, I'm not sure that 100% learnability inside the game is necessary.

Consider minecraft, where the recipes were even more esoteric and counter-intuitive (the whole 3x3 grid thing), and there were no hints at all, of any kind, in game about how to make things. The wiki was an indispensable part of playing MC.

Here, we have forced multiplayer interaction, so there is the possibility of learning from others, AND an in-game hint system that helps with simpler things. And on top of everything else, this game is already 2-3x bigger than Minecraft in terms of objects and recipes. And it will be about 10x bigger than MC when I'm done.

So the idea that we can construct an in-game tech tree for 10K objects that isn't overwhelming.... I think that's a tall ask. Even OneTech is overwhelming, right? There's just a lot of stuff, and a lot of steps. There's no way to fundamentally "fix" that. It's a big, complicated game.

I set out to make a game that's way better than Minecraft in a bunch of ways, and crafting learn-ability and intuitiveness was one of the areas that I wanted to improve. But in-game crafting encyclopedias was not where I wanted to focus.

Saolin · 2019-11-11 18:30:57

One thing I find about onetech, is that for as much as people swear by it, it's actually really clunky to use. The search function doesn't work and always tries to show how to make dice regardless. So instead you're left thinking "Hmm, what requires [object] to make", and then clicking through different parts of different recipes until you get to it.

And then you have a lot of recipes that seem to have odd priorities in which steps are shown. I don't know if the example I'm about to give is specifically accurate, but say you want to learn to make stew, a typical sequence of steps for a task like this will be "get clay -> *detailed steps on how to forge a bowl* -> find vat of stew -> click on it." When realistically if you're looking up stew probably you want it explained how the stew is actually made in the first place?

Just something that's annoyed me for a while. Tbh, until I came to expect it, the sequence of steps on onetech had me mentally facepalmimg a lot.

Last edited by Saolin (2019-11-11 18:45:11)

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-11-11 19:05:42

jasonrohrer wrote:

Consider minecraft, where the recipes were even more esoteric and counter-intuitive (the whole 3x3 grid thing), and there were no hints at all, of any kind, in game about how to make things. The wiki was an indispensable part of playing MC.

Gah.. you saying that gave me MC Alpha memories. It was VERY invaluable.

Coconut Fruit · 2019-11-11 22:02:25

Saolin wrote:

The search function doesn't work and always tries to show how to make dice regardless.

I have the same issue on my phone, but on my pc it works perfectly fine.

Jwillc · 2019-11-12 01:19:32

OneTech has a learning curve all of it's own. I'd much rather have tutorials like this. I wonder if it would be feasible to code something that could automatically generate similar tutorials.

Wuatduhf · 2019-11-12 02:50:26

Games like SS13 and OHOL will always suffer from the case of being exponentially difficult to learn without the support of a wiki document. There's only so much the search function in the bottom-right can do; it does its job enough with the hints it can provide you on what each item can do.

In short, the average players will learn the optimal way to do things via "tribal knowledge", which is literally fitting for this game.

ryanb · 2019-11-12 06:30:44

One reason the wiki works well for Minecraft is because you have more time to tab away to another screen. OHOL is time sensitive which makes it very difficult to use a guide outside of the game as you need it.

I would like to see a single player sandbox mode where players can experiment with the game in a safe environment that is not as stressful. I realize the point of the game is to learn from others, but some players like to come a little more prepared.

As for OneTech, I lost a lot of interest in developing it when the content updates stopped. Also I have a newborn baby and am working more so I don’t have much time. I will try to keep up with critical issues and plan to continue paying the hosting costs.

There is a cool feature that is only half complete that would make it easier to look up recipes but unfortunately it may never see the light of day. If anyone is interested in developing OneTech please fork the project on GitHub and submit pull requests.

https://github.com/Kazetsukai/onetech

psyduck · 2019-11-12 11:31:20

These are also what I wanted to convey.
Thank you.

StrongForce · 2019-11-12 13:25:01

Have you tried your own server? You can turn off hunger and aging.
No stress there no other players just you and the techtree

Awbz mod has a built in server in the "full" file
Very easy to set up

Last edited by StrongForce (2019-11-12 13:26:04)

DestinyCall · 2019-11-12 18:04:36

Personally, I think that there should be a "solo-mode" available from the vanilla launcher that gives you access to your own space to learn and test things out. It could be exactly the same as the regular game (just no other players, unless you join as a twin) or it could be formulated similar to Creative-Mode in Minecraft - no hunger or aging, so you can just focus on learning how to create and interact with the world.

Providing either of these options in a way that would be easy for new players to access would significantly improve the experience for people who are struggling to get into OHOL and give people a safe spot to retreat to when the multiplayer experience gets a little overwhelming or too stabby.

Amon · 2019-11-12 18:39:10

One thing with Minecraft is this.
The recipes are memorable by visuals and the visuals alone also serve as a hint as to what the result is.

Memorising a 3x3 grid will do well enough. With OHOL, it's combine Y and Z to get X, A and B to get C, combine C and X to get O.
There's a lot of reverse branching to do and things can get quickly complicated. Onetech is amazing at showing how things add up over time to the final result, especially since it's heavily visual.
I never much found the hint feature useful, haven't tried out the arrow one if it was implemented, but the lack of visuals was heavily detrimental to it being useful.

And yes, an ohol 'creative mode' might do wonders to learning, that or improving onto the tutorial to alow a skip to a 'mess around' room where you have multiple stacks of various resources so you can craft away.

StrongForce · 2019-11-12 19:29:13

DestinyCall
Could be done by jason
But why use time for that if it's already available with the local server

Also if you don't want the extra settings like no hunger and longer life you can just join one of the many empty servers that's exactly what you ask for

How to join one of the 15 almost never used official servers:
- Cose a server
Here you can see how many players play on a server
http://onehouronelife.com/reflector/ser … ion=report

- copy url
- open game
- click settings
- click "use custom server"
- paste server url into "address"
- click back
- join
- have fun

Last edited by StrongForce (2019-11-12 20:05:24)

PXshadow · 2019-11-12 19:39:42

If you have any suggestions on what things could be added into the client I'd be curious along the line of implementation.

StrongForce · 2019-11-12 19:46:31

How to get local server easy:

- github.com/Awbz/OneLife/releases
- download OHOL+_v***_win_full.zip
- extract folder and open
- open "server" folder
- run "runServer" as admin
- if the last line in cmd sais "Listening for..." the server isrunning
- open the game(could be any mod too)
- click settings
- click "use custom server"
- check if address sais "localhost" and port"8005"
- click back
- click login
- have fun

If you go to "server" the "settings" you can change a ton of stuff like: lifespan, hunger, tool slots, spawn point ect.

Perfect for learning the game or just "creative mode"

Amon · 2019-11-12 20:52:33

Are we really sure people that want to learn recipes will go through that length of effort. Your average joe that plays OHOL once every two days or so.

StrongForce · 2019-11-12 21:17:29

No player retention is a problem that's true.
I learned with one tech but I play it since pre steam
So I could easyly keep up with the tree growing.

I think if you read 10 min of onetech for every life you play you should get an enjoyable learn curve.

Last edited by StrongForce (2019-11-12 21:19:23)

jcwilk · 2019-11-13 01:13:53

ryanb wrote:

One reason the wiki works well for Minecraft is because you have more time to tab away to another screen. OHOL is time sensitive which makes it very difficult to use a guide outside of the game as you need it.
I would like to see a single player sandbox mode where players can experiment with the game in a safe environment that is not as stressful. I realize the point of the game is to learn from others, but some players like to come a little more prepared.
As for OneTech, I lost a lot of interest in developing it when the content updates stopped. Also I have a newborn baby and am working more so I don’t have much time. I will try to keep up with critical issues and plan to continue paying the hosting costs.
There is a cool feature that is only half complete that would make it easier to look up recipes but unfortunately it may never see the light of day. If anyone is interested in developing OneTech please fork the project on GitHub and submit pull requests.
https://github.com/Kazetsukai/onetech

Hah! Thought I recognized your username, my coworkers and I at previous companies were always big fans of railscasts you provided/provide a great service! I'll try to take a peek sometime soon, could you point towards that feature you mentioned? Or maybe make an issue for it?

ryanb · 2019-11-14 21:20:12

jcwilk wrote:

Hah! Thought I recognized your username, my coworkers and I at previous companies were always big fans of railscasts you provided/provide a great service! I'll try to take a peek sometime soon, could you point towards that feature you mentioned? Or maybe make an issue for it?

Glad you liked RailsCasts!

The feature is called Crafting Board and it would allow one to see multiple simplified recipes on one page with a convenient way to drill down to see unknown recipes. The GitHub issue is here:

https://github.com/Kazetsukai/onetech/issues/156

And the WIP branch is here:

https://github.com/Kazetsukai/onetech/t … ting-board

I don't remember if I left it in a working state or not. Probably won't finish it, but I think it would simplify a lot of the everyday OneTech use.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-14 23:06:36

StrongForce wrote:

DestinyCall
Could be done by jason
But why use time for that if it's already available with the local server
Also if you don't want the extra settings like no hunger and longer life you can just join one of the many empty servers that's exactly what you ask for
How to join one of the 15 almost never used official servers:
- Cose a server
Here you can see how many players play on a server
http://onehouronelife.com/reflector/ser … ion=report
- copy url
- open game
- click settings
- click "use custom server"
- paste server url into "address"
- click back
- join
- have fun

It might seem strange to someone who is into computers, but many players are quite intimidated by setting up a local server or modding the settings to give themselves special stats or even switching to a low pop server! But if there is a button in the main launcher, anyone who plays the game can access a "single player mode" without calling their tech-sauve friend for help.

Joining a custom server is not hard. Getting a modded client is not hard. But would I do it for a game I just bought and barely understand? Not likely. Would I click on a button marked "single player" in the official launcher of that same game ... yes please!

The resources already exist. Making a good single player option for OHOL would not be that difficult and it might improve player retention by helping to lower the barrier to entry for new users. OHOL has a ridiculously steep learning curve. It is less of a CURVE and more a CLIFF. I am quite sure a lot of potential players fall right off it, never to be seen again.

An officially created and supported solo mode could help immensely.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-11-14 23:08:43)

KeyboardWario · 2019-11-15 15:08:37

I learned in tutorial mode.. when I am in real servers I just execute what I know, especially now that we have only so many tools. people tend to follow me and do whatever im doing.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-11-11 02:12:24

OneTech is not the answer

#2 2019-11-11 18:10:17

Re: OneTech is not the answer

#3 2019-11-11 18:30:57

Re: OneTech is not the answer

#4 2019-11-11 19:05:42

Re: OneTech is not the answer

#5 2019-11-11 22:02:25

Re: OneTech is not the answer

#6 2019-11-12 01:19:32

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#7 2019-11-12 02:50:26

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#8 2019-11-12 06:30:44

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#9 2019-11-12 11:31:20

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#10 2019-11-12 13:25:01

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#11 2019-11-12 18:04:36

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#12 2019-11-12 18:39:10

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#13 2019-11-12 19:29:13

Re: OneTech is not the answer

#14 2019-11-12 19:39:42

Re: OneTech is not the answer

#15 2019-11-12 19:46:31

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#16 2019-11-12 20:52:33

Re: OneTech is not the answer

#17 2019-11-12 21:17:29

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#18 2019-11-13 01:13:53

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#19 2019-11-14 21:20:12

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#20 2019-11-14 23:06:36

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#21 2019-11-15 15:08:37

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