Does the tool limit or the well limit cause fast arcs?

miskas · 2019-10-28 21:31:58

Does Tool limits nerfed the Top 10% so much that they can not or don't want to solo save a village?

The limit to wells prohibits the new town foundation, so we end up with crapy ones?
Do the limited towns get boring quickly and people don't want to live in them?
Or pro-people don't want to fix these initial crapy villages? ( no new optimized pein towns)

The 1 of 2 last cities (this one on the west border of the rift) had a lot of Iron, Coal, Tar spot was 200 tiles east from city, had 2 tire horse carts.
Though this town had no Engine, no Water, no Oil, and little to no food as a result.

Last edited by miskas (2019-10-29 13:25:16)

jasonrohrer · 2019-10-28 21:51:28

Well, we did have a long arc this weekend before the very short arc just now.

fug · 2019-10-28 21:52:39

Interesting, maybe the limits stopped the ability to have veteran players carry a town.

For example: I couldn't even smith steel as Eve even though I can do the whole steel set and more in less than a life.

Tongs, thread and needle, firing kiln, firebow drill, hatchet and I had to have someone from the discord just come over and hammer my steel for me. Hell, I can barely even do a bakers Eve start either because that requires Tongs, Firing kiln, Oven, firebow drill, hatchet.

Plus on the flip side who actually wants to do the oil grind? It's not hard to do its just time consuming and sort of annoying to do.

mensrea · 2019-10-28 22:30:56

The tool limit is a significant factor in the productiveness of skilled players' lives in many cases. The result is progress is slower in the tech tree. If your town's well goes dry prior to completing the oil rig and engine pump the town will starve due to lack of water when nearby ponds are depleted.

That was what happened to the not western rift town this arc. There was a diesel pump well but no oil yet. Somebody made a map to the tarry spot about one-eighty tiles North. The tarry spot had no work done to it. The town was managing on ponds. It gets worse and worse as the pond distance increases. The town actually had horses to get the water. I managed to roll rods and bore pipes. I cannibalized the newcomen for rope, a blade, and two stone blocks for the tarry spot. I brought two buckets of water and charcoal to the oil rig, someone else brought kindling and a fire bow drill. Unfortunately, they didn't start a fire (or have the skills to). I was out of skills at this point too. I asked my daughter to help me but she was annoyed because I had run off to get berry's to leave at the oil rig and she thought she would have died. A good child would have met me halfway in the direction I had left. So I griefed her little berry outpost and returned to town. The classic bb spam was happening. Eventually I died to join the bb spam. I died about eight times until I had a mother who kept me alive just long enough to run off to the oil rig. I had the skills to run it and had run it once when the arc wiped because the other family died out. I was naked and carrying berry bowls to feed myself. I enjoyed the increased difficulty.

It's definitely not solely the tool limit that caused the fast arc. Had the mango tree planter done something useful, or the building maker had made two more stone blocks instead of walls in a useless building, or the last smith made charcoal, or the people dying clothes not used the kindling, etc, then circumstances at the end would have been different.

Also, for some sets of skills having a limited number could result in you doing more of the same sort of job. But for other sets, once you run out of input resources, if you can't find anything else to work on, you may resort to murder. For instance, if you're a clothing maker and there's no berry and carrots, you may be rather bored and resort to less productive activities, like clothing children by killing adults.

pein · 2019-10-28 22:40:34

It was a nightmare planting trees and making pen for a new city, i had to time my returns and still wasn't viable until much later, and still needed a lot of work to put floors around berries. Then they cut my trees and tons of griefers Then ended. Too much grind for nothing.

Gomez · 2019-10-29 06:45:51

basically play style needs to change a bit to compensate...you gotta be stingy with dirt and water. Which means stew and swamp biomes and single dirt rows with a double hoe. less berries means less berry snackers i dont even bother planting berry. Woodsman could gather wild berries at start tbh.

I mean trees are major luxury gotta recycle religiously smiths the tools remember two broken tool = one steel bar. Smiths never scrap....and I mean never. I do on trash man job. The knife is boss bread, pigs, mutton...

Rancher gotta breed sheep not feed adult sheared sheep and make goose.

You can eat iron but you sure can hoe with it....har har har.

Last edited by Gomez (2019-10-29 06:49:21)

JonySky · 2019-10-29 07:58:03

In your theories about the end of the arcs do you talk about child suicides (a historical problem in OHOL) currently with the new skill system nobody can´t build a city from 0 ... if you try to create a satellite city but all your children commit suicide, forget ...
since the hated rift has been implemented, it makes no sense to have a suicide system ... if someone wants to return to their old city, they just have to wait to become self-sufficient and walk 5 minutes along the rift until they reach their old project or family
The / die system only serves to teleport to other cities instantly

A few days ago I tried to create a satellite city to the north-west of the rift and all my children committed suicide one after another ... I ended up returning to my hometown without success, because I had no more space to raise sheep (bow)

Child suicides is only a reflection of the real problem in OHOL ..., there are NO real collaboration mechanisms, nor trade in OHOL ... players continue to carry out their personal projects without caring about the rest of the tasks in the cities

These "improvements" have only further limited the fun at OHOL
All this has caused that if you want to continue a project that you have left half by lack of skills, you just have to commit suicide

Currently we do not have early play, we can not evade the big cities, there are no survival challenges, the genetic score does not work well, the exploration is laughing, the PVP another heavy joke, the maps are unnecessary in a closed space of 5 minutes per on each side, the "secondary" tasks (french fries, letters, ketchup, dogs, etc ...) are no longer performed because nobody is going to use a skill for this

The game has become very repetitive and boring

If I'm writing this, it's because I want OHOL to be great and be a great game ... if I wasn't interested ... I wouldn't be writing anything

Last edited by JonySky (2019-10-29 08:29:39)

Dodge · 2019-10-29 08:20:55

Sometimes in order to build something you have to break it first.

Tool limit shows us a very important problem with the game that we didn't really see before.

Town survival depended on a few players doing everything while most other players where just idling or doing trivial stuff.

Now that these players are limited they cant carry the whole town anymore and civilisations fail.

It brings light to one big issue and a design problem that we had from the start, having whole towns/civilisations depend on a few players is not a good or interesting mechanic, everyone should contribute in a cooperatif effort, everyone should play an important part in the grand scheme of things.

Now that each player has more value as an individual, we can see that the old system had flaws and needs to be improved to adapt to each player having a bigger role to play.

Gameplay needs to switch from fast paced "few players doing everything" to cooperative gameplay where communication and organization is key and everyone plays an important part.

But since communication is more needed and rushing everything is not the best strategy/possible anymore, the overall rythm (food drain) of the game should change to reflect the new type of gameplay.

It's a big change but i think it is needed to allow to go from fast paced to a cooperation based experience.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-10-29 08:21:16)

CatX · 2019-10-29 09:56:03

Dodge wrote:

It brings light to one big issue and a design problem that we had from the start, having whole towns/civilisations depend on a few players is not a good or interesting mechanic, everyone should contribute in a cooperatif effort, everyone should play an important part in the grand scheme of things.

It sounds reasonable, but I'm not sure I agree 100%

This is not just a cooperative builder game, it is also an attempt to simulate a society. There are no societies where all people are effective, and they shouldn't have to be (depending on your political view, but still...)

For example, we have artists for a reason in real life. In OHOL, beautiful gardens are not vital for survival, but building them and exploring other people's gardens is fun. If it's fun, I'd say it's a good and interesting mechanic.

Or, take new players. When they learn to tend berries and make compost, they feel useful. But there is no need to remove experienced players' ability to do these tasks in order for the new players to feel useful. They are happy to do the tasks, experienced players are happy when they don't have to. No limiting mechanics required.

So, I don't think the previous system had a design flaw in this regard. If anything, I thought it a greater flaw with the old system that more inexperienced players were locked to simple tasks, because the societies didn't have enough abundance (food, iron, kindling...) to create good learning stations for more advanced stuff. The game should offer situations where time can be spent teaching other players to make engines, for example. But that never happened back when I played because there was no time, survival hinged on getting task done, not teaching and learning. So the best way was to play on a different server (or in the tutorial area for forging) in order to learn. That was a greater weakness in my opinion.

I'm not saying the new system is worse or better; I don't know, I haven't tried it. But to me it sounds like something is a little off with the theory behind it.

JonySky · 2019-10-29 10:08:12

Dodge ..., let me disagree, this problem has long been visualized in the game
OHOL has always been like this, a few experienced players pull the car of the other players
Many players who write in this forum had already commented
Now I don't have much time, but I can look for some references in this same forum that talk about this problem "The historical sponge players"
However, analyzing this problem was as simple as using a survey within OHOL and asking ... how many of you know how to make an engine?
I bet less than a quarter of OHOL players know how to make an engine
or simpler yet ... try playing a game of OHOL in a big city and watch each player

With this I do not mean that this change is bad, I think it is a very good mechanic for OHOL, but it is not a priority

there are other more urgent problems to solve

On collaborative works, it has also been commented several times in this forum ...
A few days ago I refloated a post about very interesting natural disasters that promotes collaborative work

And about communication, there has also been talk on several occasions that it is tedious to speak in OHOL ..
at another 1 hour does not allow great communications with the family
I must add that English is not the language of all players in OHOL and sometimes expressing yourself is difficult
That is why I also commented a long time ago a system of "circle of options" (a kind of wheel / menu as in rust with the construction) with phrases or several options that facilitate communication in 60 minutes

I think the players don't communicate because there's no time and because it's tedious

Last edited by JonySky (2019-10-29 10:20:38)

luckynmd · 2019-10-29 13:08:37

It is interesting that most of the post are regarding the tool limit. I agree but I do not think that it is the reason that causes short arcs. It is the well limit that is problematic. Keep in mind that when there is a murder fest in town, you cannot run outside of the city and build yourself a satellite town anymore. Well, you can but it is so much harder.
Furthermore, is it possible that we have fast arcs also because of the decline in rabbit trapping? Clothes are not as warm and pies less abundant..

Dodge · 2019-10-29 14:01:23

JonySky wrote:

Dodge ..., let me disagree

On which specific point do you disagree?

JonySky · 2019-10-29 15:00:11

Dodge wrote:

JonySky wrote:
Dodge ..., let me disagree
On which specific point do you disagree?

You say that right now, thanks to this update we observe that: "The survival of the city depended on a few players who did everything, while most of the other players were inactive or doing trivial things."

this is not true ... new players and "sponge" players have been in the game for a long time and it is a problem that has long been detected

You also say this:
Now that each player has more value as an individual, we can see that the previous system had flaws and needs to be improved to adapt to each player who has a more important role to play.

We already knew that the system had failures with collaborative tasks long before this update

For all this I think that this update was not necessary right now ... just generated more frustration

My thought about OHOL's priority task is that it be fun again, that EVES challenges and its early camps return, that cities don't disappear, the crack is annoying in many ways ... when the game is fun again, the players will play it again ... and it is at that moment that these mechanics have to be modified ... but not now

Coconut Fruit · 2019-10-29 15:12:25

mensrea wrote:

The tool limit is a significant factor in the productiveness of skilled players' lives in many cases. The result is progress is slower in the tech tree.

On the other hand limited wells force families to live together which makes more people live in a town. That means higher chance for pro players carrying the town which may result in faster progress in the tech tree.

Dodge · 2019-10-29 15:51:08

JonySky wrote:

...

It was never a real issue up to this point, now we cant ignore it an need to find solutions is what i'm saying.

Without the tool update this problem would have never been solved.

But also having a few players carry whole villages was not an interesting dynamic, everybody needs to contribute now, but the game has to change in order to enable that.

miskas · 2019-10-29 15:58:01

Coconut Fruit wrote:

mensrea wrote:
The tool limit is a significant factor in the productiveness of skilled players' lives in many cases. The result is progress is slower in the tech tree.
On the other hand limited wells force families to live together which makes more people live in a town. That means higher chance for pro players carrying the town which may result in faster progress in the tech tree.

more than 8 people need it to make Oil and engine in the town I was in. The distillery is not yet done...
We ofcourse living out of wild berries cause nothing else could be done.

Last edited by miskas (2019-10-29 15:58:52)

Coconut Fruit · 2019-10-29 16:21:19

Yeah, in current arc when it was at about 200 minutes age, I made a newcomen tower and smithed about 20 iron to steel to encourage people to make next engine steeps. I came back after 2 hours break and it was so disappointing to see that nobody has made even one step further in engine making. So I made all newcomen tools + timming pulley for engine, 10 piston blanks, about 8 rods and that's where my skill slots ended. Engine with oil could be finished really quickly even with tool limit, only if there were two more people willingly to finish it. Idk what happened later, haven't played it since then.

I mean the issue are not tools nor well limit, but lack of skill that majority has.
Communication system is also broken. With better communication we could ask even newbies for help in making more advanced stuff.

luckynmd · 2019-10-29 20:00:43

Coconut Fruit wrote:

I mean the issue are not tools nor well limit, but lack of skill that majority has.
Communication system is also broken. With better communication we could ask even newbies for help in making more advanced stuff.

Coconut, you are clearly a good player. But, just as real life, it is not all of us that knows how to make an engine, make machining tools, cars, planes even Newcomen pumps. The point I'm getting at is that, even if your reasoning is good, I do not think that it is the problem because we need less experienced players. We farm berries, feed sheeps, take care of babies.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-10-28 21:31:58

Does the tool limit or the well limit cause fast arcs?

#2 2019-10-28 21:51:28

Re: Does the tool limit or the well limit cause fast arcs?

#3 2019-10-28 21:52:39

Re: Does the tool limit or the well limit cause fast arcs?

#4 2019-10-28 22:30:56

Re: Does the tool limit or the well limit cause fast arcs?

#5 2019-10-28 22:40:34

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#6 2019-10-29 06:45:51

Re: Does the tool limit or the well limit cause fast arcs?

#7 2019-10-29 07:58:03

Re: Does the tool limit or the well limit cause fast arcs?

#8 2019-10-29 08:20:55

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#9 2019-10-29 09:56:03

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#10 2019-10-29 10:08:12

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#11 2019-10-29 13:08:37

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#12 2019-10-29 14:01:23

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#13 2019-10-29 15:00:11

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#14 2019-10-29 15:12:25

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#15 2019-10-29 15:51:08

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#16 2019-10-29 15:58:01

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#17 2019-10-29 16:21:19

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#18 2019-10-29 20:00:43

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