Capitalistic idea

pein · 2019-08-14 01:41:41

if you are a communist berry muncher, stop reading this!

the problem why we don't have trade, is because the game doesn't require you to do anything
yes, anything
it's totally viable, to just go further and further to eat wild food, and survive
what is your end goal? to reach 60? you don't need to care about food
if you are inside the city, then maybe you got to bake a few pies and store in your pack, you don't really need to care about others, maybe if it's a fertile girl, so you will have some offsprings, but even so, you don't really have to save everyone and trying so, you can fail, the more you try, the more others lean on you and leaves you with a bad taste

one example is a life where granma hunted a lot of wild animals, every lil girl had wolf hat and mouflon skin, started it off nice
but when i looked around, it was a tiny green biome with one single soil pile, our water running out, no food nearby
mom tried to feed people, at the first sight of depleted bushes she already gave up, as a kid i picked off the corn and cut it open, so when i told her that we can do popcorn, she was relieved for a moment
people realized that they got to help out to keep this up, they cant just chitchat and hope for the best
it still wasnt enough and everyone died except me

maybe i could have saved a few by working very hard but if they werent motivated to do anything, it would never worked well
that's why capitalism is good, and communism fails
lot of people like the idea of being equal, and workign together
but in this game, stealing stuff others produce is way easier than creating your stuff
why bother planting milkweed when you can just take a rope
why to collect iron when you can just walk in to a camp, grab it with a horse and run away?

the idea would be that each Eve starts off with some money, maybe slowly generating a bit more over time
lets say 100 coins
to start acamp you would need to occupy a spring, that would cost you 60 coins for example
this would create a zone around the spring which is owned by the family
items produced on this spot, are owned by the family and cannot be taken by others until the family members are alive and at least one person is controlling it
the original territory would be like 14x14 (tested with fortress, bit smal but works) (maybe 20x20), the edges of it would prevent building on them (other than roads and gates) to stop blocking it, or at least near gates, so one in one out, or maybe 2 in straight line, total 5, this would fall straight to springs every time
maybe gates would have esignated positions and would cost less by building one, getting 4 for the cost
also possibly springy gates

fences could be made around it but only on designated edge tiles, and gates would be on middle of the tiles

you could upgrade the territory either by buying it or occupy it

each person would have a personal account and a family account
the family could use the shared account by voting at least half plus one, maybe an ui to vote and accept votes on proposals
adding more space? you need to have the coins
each expansion could be quarter of original camp, so in case of 20x20, you could add 10x10 extra territory, the elder would have the first option to add territory and others could have counter suggestions which side to take next
each upgrade would cost coins, so the more population, the better chance to take more space
also the population could limit this, so you need 10 people inside to even allow space expansion

the map could also prevent blocking items next to gate positions, like cacti, ponds, monolith and maybe trees (that one not necessary)

this would be a bit more generic, but who likes the shitty curvy fence lines anyway?
the town could still have quite a few cubic shapes and extensions any direction

freeform fences are quite annoying most of times, not even talking about when people build fences inside the fence with a 3x4 size blocking off space near useful spots, and if you don't allow them they just keep spamming it and even grief you when they cant do their bullshit, so fences could be used mostly for edges of town

the other way to get coins would be by producing cash crops and processed items
i could think of stuff like sugar, salt, cocoa, coffee, tobacco, stuff that doesn't have uses on it's own but can be sold for profit, giving value to work, and helping progress of families or inviduals

other stuff could be like furniture, chockolate, canned fruits, fish, coffee, involvign more processing, giving items for export

the market would be instant, maybe delayed
two options: the items could be used for upgrades and buy off spaces on map
or just some generic prices from an AI trader, considering how much is in the world right now
some fluctuations based on random events.
So families could engage in creating stuff, following trends.

The towns could have shared storage , items on shared space could be used for anyone as long as it's inside the shared space, or sold for profit for the shared account.
People could start their own enterprise by allocating their shops on side of town, maybe this spots would need to be allocated first from family money then either biddign or first come first served basis

i don't see point of selling boards or stone, cause then all you do is remove it from your camp and then it's harder to get more
or food like pies, cause then people could abuse population and producing to buy food for a few invviduals

the shops could process different kind of stuff, we would need a few advancements in this area
lets say you could process some kind of tree, then make logs, boards, combine them with other stuff like glue and nails into furniture
but later you could make stuff like boats for sale
cocoa, milk and sugar into chokolate, later cakes, etc.
metals into ornaments
newspapers, posters, maps?
cotton, wool,textil, clothes
chemicals, dynamite
weapons
glass, utensils, ornaments from glass, windows and doors with glass
horseshoes, saddles, horse breeding?
alcohol from agave and grain
cooking utensils, metal barrels, cages
carpets, rugs etc
easels, paintings, art (more chaotic prices)

the items doesn't have to have a purpose just a value, and the valeu would be provided by the Ai market or unlock system

to have a value for money, certain spots for the world would be higher price, and only after unlocking
so similarly to the rift, we could have families who buy passage to the next area which would allow higher tier processing of items
first of all the fmaily would need horses breeded and trained inside their city, then a carriage, food reserves, population and coins to allow the passage to the next rift
people who lived and died in that family would have a higher chance to be born in next area or maybe a special life token that can be used after they lived in a successful family that life (like at least 20 min lived and contributed)

the automatic coin generation would be slow at first, kids would get less value at first, increasing with age
so they can start something later in the life, but as logn as they are kids, they would need to work for others
money couldn't be taken from others or donated
no rich life for kids, they could enjoy items of their parents but not kill and take others money on sight
if osmeone dies, the money would slowly transfer to the family, maybe a percentage could go to a chosen person but notright away, to prevent people stuffing others with money and playing the system to their own advantage
sure it still would be some cheating but that's kinda the roleplay here

the combat should be a bit more arranged like some sort of siege system or more sport like organized, maybe non lethal way to settle things

and of course you could ask coins for entrance, rent out spaces for other families and such

im just brainstorming, probably never gonna happen, but at least it's a bit more outside of the box

Thaulos · 2019-08-14 02:32:00

I would rather use a "money" resource for a sort of collective learning of recipes. Maybe a family could "research" recipes somehow based on how much work they did.

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-08-14 02:52:12

I like the brainstorm, pein.

I like to re-imagine OHOL as simulating the life of a space colonist. The Eve would start with crappy standard issue clothing that falls apart rapidly. The company that paid to transport the dirt-poor colonists just needs people on the ground in order to convince the intergalactic government to give them title to the planet they are trying to colonize.

So when I read your idea pein, I'm imagining the AI trading system as the company representatives that are in orbit. They have teleportation access to the surface, and can provide luxury goods and instant property fences. Maybe they can set up instant property lines for a certain price. And the money all players can acquire is company credit.

Since the company is trying to convince a larger government that they own the planet... they would have a reason to provide some small amount of cash for every year alive. Maybe the government will make their decision based on the number of children born? Or the number of people who live to old age? Or the average age of the population times the size? Whatever the government is looking for, the company would then incentivize the colonists to maximize it.

I don't see Jason going this far from his original vision of a post-apocalyptic world, but IMHO you are right that it would make for better gameplay if there was some external bank giving value to an in-game currency, and backing that currency with landrights.

Also, the low tech property fence set up and maintenance is VERY GRINDING and boring. I feel the need to do it as a "responsible" player, but... bleh. Making it instantaneous sounds good to me.

DarkDrak · 2019-08-14 04:56:03

As much as i hate dealing with berrymunchers and as much as i get filled with despair whenever i look around a town/small settlement and see that for every hardworking person there are 3 people just idling around, not knowing what to do, chatting in front of the forge or trying to figure out the berry respawn time and i realize that i gotta be the baker, the smith and the gatherer in a villege of 6-10 people... this idea of implementing capitalism feels like an entirely different game.

In Ohol every item has to be out there, visible and interactable. The closest thing to money are probably golden lingots, but their value is such that one will have better results in trading by using mushrooms or burdocks as money. 2 second craft apocalypses, invincible fences and indiscutebly owned gates are already a lot of misticism to swallow. Spirital money, gained by sacrificing tabaco to a diety, are a bit too much.

Dodge · 2019-08-14 05:28:01

An easier system to put in place would be to make crafting (hunting,farming,baking etc) cost food, but doing nothing would only drain your food very slowly.

So idling berry munchers wouldn't need to constantly eat and be a drain on ressources other players make, and they could RP all day without depleting all the bushes and pies.

Also it makes sense, if you dont do physical activity you dont need to eat as much since you dont burn as much calories and if you are starving it's very difficult to do any physical activity.

Psykout · 2019-08-14 06:02:12

@pain

I feel you I do, but I really think that in order to get to that level their needs to be achievable things that only you can achieve with your surroundings. Until Jason relaxes on min/max logical approach and gives us some sort of specializations it's not really feasible. Honestly when you break down trade its turning a common resource into a luxury for those that don't have access to something accessible. Right now no matter what it is, we need it, and that just doesn't fit. Worldwide trade does not occur because a resource is so great that you can't get enough of it, that's when people cheat and steal to get it. It occurs because because there is enough around that excess can be used elsewhere. This is way when dynamic and interesting trade occurs, and until this is given to us we can only roleplay barter with a high risk of just being killed and stolen from. I don't blame them one bit, be use gamers have always been so good on taking the motorcycle efficient way to solve a problem
To be honest it's what makes us survive well in society and business. The sad thing is we need rules we can not break. We pride ourselves on being able to think outside someone else's box; but can never think outside of our own self inflicted boxes. The spur of imagination and creativity is confined but feels free. Appealing to those willing to take on the grand scope of that versus those that will find any loophole they can.... that's a helluva mission which I why I have patience. We need rules only so we can see how much we can break them, and that just generally appeals to human nature. Its really up to Jason to how much rope e get.

Simulating real human dynamics in a game is of course really exciting, but at some point you have to realize that this is your creation and you control the rules and we will abide. At a certain point it will collapse as those seeking escape will always confront those that use a system openness to their desire.

Jason I wish you the best in figuring out a balance between the two but it is most definitely not easy, especially as the dynamic of "gamers" has changed over the past two decades.

pedrito confesiones · 2019-08-14 06:20:00

i think we should be able to trigger the apocalypse by sacrificing jason in one of the many lifes he plays

miskas · 2019-08-14 15:28:18

The first part about family ownership could be implemented by Jason with the current game engine.
Fixes: unable to block fence gates, able to transfer gate ownership easily across family, able to excommunicate family members, able to adopt anyone into the family.

The next part of the market won't be implemented cause it is not supported by the engine either by Jason's purpose for the game. BUT! it is what I will be doing for the next rift and I will be happy to help me with that. I will make a market with locked doors on the tar monument where people could come and trade without being threatened with me(the trader) as an arbitrator. I have already a way to do this in mind

Pein Plz PM me your discord account if you are interested to plan this.

Last edited by miskas (2019-08-14 15:30:25)

pein · 2019-08-14 22:38:57

i think that some of the updates are just placeholders, they don't really do what they should do
curses? wont replace objective people who check out the interactions themselves, heck they even can be used for griefing, idiots always win the "how much butthurt can you be" contest

trade was a goal for jason and it has zero procent chance until things can be just taken away
or eve if the multi step objects cant tell who worked how much on them

that's why we need a category that doesn't depend on current gameplay element

darkdrak
money is always virtual, irl the money is just used to control you, keep your mouth shut, places like Venezuela get a severe inflation, and you wonder that people would do anything for 5 dollars a week, meanwhile living inside it it's complete bs
but even in game systems, there are inflations and deflations
one thing that Ohol sticks out and will never change, is that people can only live for 60 min, so any kind of fortune will be lost anyway so controlling the "donations" would be enough
money and trade can only exist if there is counter value
and the best thing would be territories, they always got a value, and if it's limited, it creates a need
and it's not about sacrificing, it's a simplistic trade system, if there is a lot of something, it's cheaper, if there isn't many it's expensive
sure, we could have hand rolled or machine rolled cigars, and people use it for something, or just for fun
but that part on how and why it's brought isn't really neccassary for the goal: trade and getting value on work
most of games got a trade system like this, you buy for a fixed amount, maybe you sell for half of it, you produce something and sell it
simulating how it happens or if anyone even needs it or the transport, it's just unnecessary details

fences already exist and by all hoensty, i wouldn't trust people building them cause there is always that idiot who fixes the ones you don't need and leaves out the ones which you need, and having the sstrongest wall option same as the cheapest, it's the biggest error of iit. i don't even know why people cant build it straight or why they build it in the first place, and tellign them not to make, they just do it anyway, so yeah, i would prefer predefined generic fence positions, or even better just return the damn dodging, cause 90% of times you dontneed fences and the times you need it, it's because some reatrds out of blood for no reason, no warning, no nothing

you know what else is unrealistic? that your 3 year old kid acts like a jerk, and then dies
that you spend 1 hour making a nice camp then your kids die despite of havign everything
that you get a horse and the first 12 year old steals it, then stabs you
the thing we need to simulate is respect for the elders cause no one ever does that
technically they owe you work and resources for keeping them alive, yet people act like they are in a position they can demand even more

and yes, we need a bigger change in order to have trade

Anandamide · 2019-08-16 21:49:42

Uhg please no we already live in a capitalist world, its nice to escape every once in a while. Eat the rich and griefers get the gulag.

BladeWoods · 2019-08-16 23:42:03

Worst than berry munchers is people that overeat constantly. Really nothing you can do about it, can't see when people do it. Can't even see when you yourself do it, so if you don't know the food values of every food you might be wasting food all the time.

Ruben · 2019-08-17 09:45:35

There's just not enough time to acclimate to the value of a currency. I could easily imagine crafting copper and gold coins, with unlimited storage inside a coin pouch (it actually exists). There has to be a reason for people to collect coins.

Suggestion: How about being able to melt a certain amount of coins back into a gold bar? This would certainly give it some value. Even better if you could change your family name by engraving it into the crown, wearing it, and saying some kind of text or something like that. There needs to be a meta-feature that can be activated using coins.

testo · 2019-08-17 10:10:37

I agree with some of the starting ideas from Pein. But it is just too unrealistic to make currency appear just with the Eves. The same idea should work with recipies: each family has to craft a building to represent a government institution, and that creates a control zone. Same with currency, some craftable static item can be used to make currency and create a trade system. This game needs to stop looking a RUST and start looking at CIVILIZATION IV. Each family could have different features and recipies depending on a branch on how they organize (what government they craft). Also that would change in time to represent the age and level in the tech tree (Instead of a level decided by water source). Then again, that needs some actual tech tree design. So it´s not going to happen.

pein · 2019-08-17 21:03:03

eves are unrealistic by default, you could as well start with a free spring area and generate some coins over time (so they don't mess up too bad the selection), still would make the game better as harder working people would get more benefits for their work, it wouldn't be random female spamming
tropico had similar system, where you could switch the government type, and then you got standing with each faction
but then that's more of a single player version
you cant hold elections every minute
but the trading part was nice there as well, you had to accept contracts and fulfill it in time, and relation based bonuses with several foreign powers

DarkDrak · 2019-08-18 23:25:44

Money is nothing more but a common ground for trading.
Before money (and even in some places nowdays) people would just trade the Products of their own work (e.g. a sack of grain for a bucket of milk or for five dozen carrots). Or they would trade Services (e.g. planting and tending to carrots/smithing iron into steel into tools/trasporting the goods of a neighbour) that took time and effort, just like making their own products would do, for products of services that would require equivalent time/effort. Bonus points for specialized stuff that not everyone can do 'cause it requires knowledge or recourse that not everyone has (e.g. medical treatments).
Not everyone wants to be paid in carrots though, so a common ground was neccessary. One that every product and service could be related to.
That's the logic behind money.

Imo there should be a different approach to capitalism.
To make money viable first of all the trading has to be viable.

Right now the best scenario i can think of:
Town A has a desert and a jungle very nearby, they made a rubber outpost and can mass produce rubber
Town B Has lots of fertile soil deposits that they use up to make a milweed giga farm
In this scenario Town A and Town B can trade 4 rubber tires for 4 empty buckets.

Better yet, Town A has more clay deposits nearby that what they can use, while town B has appassionate cow farmers
So they can Trade a Handcart with tires full of clay for a cart of buckets of separated milk.

That's an example of a town with favorable position trading with a town with hardworkers.
Exept it can never work 'cause it would be much easier:
For town A to eradicate town B and loot their recourses.
For town B to eradicate town A, settle a colony there and just freely use their rubber outpost.
For town B to walk around the map to find sulfur, oil, clay and w/e they might need.
For Town A to wait until hardworking players spawn there and make milkweedfarm out of compost, probably made while also making lots of clothing.

With language barrier, ease to kill, common map and all the players cycling all the possible towns, both the violent and the self-made approaches are much simplier and faster than the trading approach. That's what should be improved in my opinion.

PXshadow · 2019-08-19 04:53:11

What I see from this post is a series of criticisms of the general economics of the game.
I'll try provide extra insight to them from an economics perspective.

pein wrote:

maybe i could have saved a few by working very hard but if they werent motivated to do anything, it would never worked well
that's why capitalism is good, and communism fails
lot of people like the idea of being equal, and workign together
but in this game, stealing stuff others produce is way easier than creating your stuff
why bother planting milkweed when you can just take a rope
why to collect iron when you can just walk in to a camp, grab it with a horse and run away?

Tragedy of the commons

"If land is not owned by anybody, although legal formalism may call it public property, it is utilized without any regard to the disadvantages resulting. Those who are in a position to appropriate to themselves the returns — lumber and game of the forests, fish of the water areas, and mineral deposits of the subsoil — do not bother about the later effects of their mode of exploitation. For them the erosion of the soil, the depletion of the exhaustible resources and other impairments of the future utilization are external costs not entering into their calculation of input and output. They cut down the trees without any regard for fresh shoots or reforestation. In hunting and fishing they do not shrink from methods preventing the repopulation of the hunting and fishing grounds." - Ludwig von Mises

DarkDrak wrote:

Right now the best scenario i can think of:
Town A has a desert and a jungle very nearby, they made a rubber outpost and can mass produce rubber
Town B Has lots of fertile soil deposits that they use up to make a milweed giga farm
In this scenario Town A and Town B can trade 4 rubber tires for 4 empty buckets.

Division of Land/Nature

"Historically division of labor originates in two facts of nature: the inequality of human abilities and the variety of the external conditions of human life on the earth. These two facts are really one: the diversity of Nature, which does not repeat itself but creates the universe in infinite, inexhaustible variety. ...

These two conditions … are indeed such as almost to force the division of labor on mankind. Old and young, men and women cooperate by making appropriate use of their various abilities. Here also is the germ of the geographical division of labor; man goes to the hunt and woman to the spring to fetch water. Had the strength and abilities of all individuals and the external conditions of production been everywhere equal the idea of division of labor could never have arisen. … No social life could have arisen among men of equal natural capacity in a world which was geographically uniform. ...

Once labor has been divided, the division itself exercises a differentiating influence. The fact that labor is divided makes possible further cultivation of individual talent and thus cooperation becomes more and more productive. Through cooperation men are able to achieve what would have been beyond them as individuals. ..." -Murray N. Rothbard

"The greater productivity of work under the division of labor is a unifying influence. It leads men to regard each other as comrades in a joint struggle for welfare, rather than as competitors in a struggle for existence." -Murray N. Rothbard

pein wrote:

trade was a goal for jason and it has zero procent chance until things can be just taken away
or eve if the multi step objects cant tell who worked how much on them
that's why we need a category that doesn't depend on current gameplay element

Private property

"If history could teach us anything, it would be that private property is inextricably linked with civilization." - Ludwig von Mises

~And finally some banter

Anadamide wrote:

Uhg please no we already live in a capitalist world, its nice to escape every once in a while. Eat the rich and griefers get the gulag.

"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a ‘dismal science.’ But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance." - Murray N. Rothbard

Coniculls13 · 2019-08-19 12:14:04

Interesting concept. Would be nice to hear or even see Jason's take/adaptation of this.

Last edited by Coniculls13 (2019-08-19 12:14:13)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-08-14 01:41:41

Capitalistic idea

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Re: Capitalistic idea

#3 2019-08-14 02:52:12

Re: Capitalistic idea

#4 2019-08-14 04:56:03

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#5 2019-08-14 05:28:01

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#6 2019-08-14 06:02:12

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#7 2019-08-14 06:20:00

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